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Subject: guns


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Original Message 1/147                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  04:59 AM   -   guns

psylichon

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Just saw a trailer for Michael Moore's new movie "Bowling for Columbine." It's all about guns in America and it got me thinking. Why are guns such a problem in America? How 'sacred' is the second amendment?

Personally, I don't think guns serve any purpose but to kill. You can target shoot without lethal potential and you can kill animals without firepower. I don't like the government telling us what we can and cannot own, but I really don't see the need for guns in any society.

I'm curious what you guys think. Do we need guns? Would it make a noticeable social impact to outlaw guns? I think it may... more than waiting for the average American psyche to evolve.

Quoting Linda Richomond, "Twalk amongst yahselves"

I love the smell of stirred shit.

psylichon



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Message 2/147                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  05:32 AM   -   RE: guns

Pongoid

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When all of mankind puts down its guns, I will put mine down, but until the time that people everwhere, not just civilians, but ALL humans can get past killing one another, PERIOD, then I will keep mine, and if Michael Moore came through my front door with his cameraman without asking, I'd shoot him too. Yes there are things worth dying for and killing over.


Is anybody here telling me that if they came home and found their spouse or child being raped and tortured that they would not shoot their assailant/s if they had the option? Rather would they just forgive and forget and hope the cops caught up with them later with stun sticks and goop guns, or hope that these evil bastards just had karma catch up with them and got hit by a bus?
Let someone who has been raped or kidnapped tell you the answer to that question before you even think about trying to answer that one yourself. I've lived with victims of both circumstances, and I'll tell, you right now humans are fucking animals in a really good disguise, and when that changes, then I will lay mine down.

Errata, you have been programmed by Moore's ideology. His facts are not always accurate and his views do not reflect much beyond flaming liberalism and idealistic bullshit in a world of fucked up, scared and weak creatures. The cops carry guns. The military of the world carry guns, and I trust neither of those groups to be comprised of individuals with the intelligence to properly assume the responsibilities and power they are given. Nor are humans sufficiently civilized in their behaviour towards one another to not need those tools. Moore has never been raped or kidnapped to my knowledge, maybe mugged.

I've been shot myself, and I can tell you that it REALLY sucks, and I didn't even deserve it, it was an accident.

I'd say that humanity would be a lot better off with a lot less farming of animals for meat consumption, rather more land dedicated to wilderness and hunting, with more people being forced to take their own animals and cleaning them and learning the gravity of killing another creature rather than this illusion that meat grows in grocery stores and comes in plastic packages and is very good for you that way.


Moore makes compelling arguments, and he is very charismatic, but his goal is fucked up and fantastic, and won't work with humanity the way it is. It's easy to manipulate films and situations to say ANYTHING you want, but in this case it's just really strong spin from a very good psychological programmer to which many will fall victim. I am disappointed and disgusted, and hope that people can snap out of this and see that laws do not take guns away from anybody but law-abiding citizens, and societies, especially ones of this size, proportion, and competitive mentality will not function correctly without these kinds of tools at their disposal. Know who functioned well without guns in their civilians hands? The Nazis. The Maoists. Feudal Japan (and then they were just hacking each other to death with swords over dirty looks and some behavioral template of their idea of honor).

You can count me the fuck out. I'm keeping mine, and that's that.

Ape



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Message 3/147                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  05:35 AM   -   RE: guns

influx

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you fucker. why do you insist on making me think god dammit?

first: outlawing things does not remedy them as a problem. This has been proven time and again.

second: the average american simply does NOT need a gun. How many of us have ever been or will ever be faced with a violent situation. Would a gun alter (past tense) the outcome? Would we USE the thing?

Ive had a fairly violent past, and have seen guns used in many ways that I didnt agree with. Frightening.

thing is...the crap that goes on..those arent legal guns anyway! You think CRIP buys guns at the ma and pa? no. they buy stolen guns on the street. Blood, too.

now...the military...now THOSE guns scare me, the level that theyre at.

and I think the 2nd was supposed to be regarding the rights of the citizens to arm themselves against an oppressive system (AHEM!) but not to just fucking walk around carrying one.



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Message 4/147                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  08:29 AM     Edit: 17-Oct-02  |  08:29 AM   -   RE: guns

Maarten

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.



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Message 5/147                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  08:29 AM   -   RE: guns

Maarten

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Yeah, and where do those stolen guns often come from at first? right.



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Message 6/147                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  10:49 AM   -   RE: guns

k

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fear is the great controller...



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Message 7/147                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  12:19 PM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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At some point video games and remote warfare will converge and 'joining the army' will consist of being good at quake VII or unreal tournament 2008.

Head shot!

sigh...



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Message 8/147                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  12:43 PM   -   RE: guns

steef

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it's all a load of bollocks anyway - I would've
thought A.I.M. were exercising their
constitutional rights at wounded knee but it
never did them any good, did it?



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Message 9/147                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  02:17 PM   -   RE: guns

milan

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"At some point video games and remote warfare will converge"- ever played America´s Army? free 3D game of highest quality free to download, promoted by US Army and ministry of defense. in order to run it you must obtain codes directly from us army, and game features training and schools for special units, if thats what you want to play in the game. insane. i actually downloaded and applied for a permit, but it wouldnt run without a hi-end video card. check it out if you´re curious.



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Message 10/147                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  07:11 PM   -   RE: guns

errata

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Wow, Pongoid... you rebuffed me before I responded! Were you thinking of me when you were writing that? Could you feel me out in the illogical, spiritual ether grinding my teeth and thinking, "It's you what's the problem?" I was really surprised to see my name there.

I've not been brain washed by anyone. Gun control is one of the few places where I still come down like a libertarian. As you say Pongoid, in a perfect world we wouldn't need 'em. I personaly prefer to live as an altruist, and wouldn't own a gun myself. But i wouldn't dream of demanding that others MUST give there's up. There's a lot of truth in the sentiment that illegalizing guns would mean that only criminals would have them!

So, uh... no, I wouldn't say that people should have their guns taken away. It's just like nukes really. It's a terrible f*ckin' shame they're there. But now that we've got them, who thinks it's smart to disarm and give all the power to the one's who don't? Terrible bitch of a situation, but here we are.

I love reading Michael Moore. I think he's great, and I agree with him a LOT! But not so often that I'm incapable of thinking for myself. It's a little unfair that I've been accused otherwise!

e



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Message 11/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  12:01 AM   -   RE: guns

Pongoid

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guns and nukes are not the same, dude.

Check out the news. At the rate things are going, Moore's gonna have his dream come true, cuz while you have him throwing it out, you've got those fucking scumbags in the government unleashing that sniper to get the public to okay these illegal arms sweeps from the ATF and even stricter fucking laws. Yes that's right. I said it's the government behind this. You think this timeing is coincidence? That it's happening in DC is coincindence? That this guy is pulling some hollywood bullshit with tarot cards is for anything other than hype? That uncle sam's trying to show you how he was right for installing all of that big brother camera bullshit? Look at it. Look at it real good. This is a fucking set-up, and it's either the FBI, the BATF, or another agency or anti-gun lobbying group behind this. This is not random, and it's just one guy involved here, much these folks try to make it seem.

Don't worry Errata, you're dream's coming true anyhow. I didn't like getting shot, and I've never shot anybody else, but I will NEVER give up my arms as long as arms exist and are needed anywhere.

Ape



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Message 12/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  12:16 AM   -   RE: guns

errata

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I'm getting the feeling we're not having the same conversation, or I'm getting confused for someone else, here!

I AGREE WITH YOU, man!

The kids with the conch this go around would do it! I'm sure, I think they were complicit in the WTC bombing and I'd not be the slightest bit surprised if they're complicit in that nefarious sh*t either! I'm confident these nasty old f*ckers would do it just to justify the further deterioration of our rights. It's the approach to tyranny in a democracy. Social events must spur the populace to approve of dictatorial activity! And I'll bet it works.

Not sure which dream is coming true, yo! Our culture is about as f*cked up right now as it's been in a LONG time.

I do not want to disarm you... nor anyone else. If it were possible to disarm everyone... permanently I'd say it bears looking at but that's a pipe dream! Besides, if you took away guns we'd go back to swords, sticks and fists! It's the human attitude that needs to change! And I agree that it doesn't look too likely!

Where did you get the idea that I had a different opinion than this? I'm fairly consistant (I think) in my posts! I've never supported any of this crap!!!

e



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Message 13/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  12:42 AM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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The answer is more guns, obviously.... and maybe free full body armour for all us citizens...



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Message 14/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  12:48 AM   -   RE: guns

errata

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i would say honestly, there is no good answer! I'd love to see disarmament. But if the cops had all the guns it'd be ugly. I don't know enough about the rest of the world to say, but here in America the police are bad ENOUGH!

Maybe this is where I gave the unrealistic impression of me: I would NOT kill a person who wanted to kill me! I would not KILL a person who was harming a loved one, UNLESS there was NO other option. And then only because My very personal feeling is that neither the victim nor the agressor deserve the results of their actions. And I'd prefer to be the one who must answer for the ramifications of that violence than it being someone else.

I would not want to hamper the rights of others to take a different course of action in dealing with that kind of unreasonable situation!

e



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Message 15/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  01:01 AM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

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See it's really tough for me. I don't like government getting in the way of things and telling us what we can and can't own or do (i.e. drugs). But guns are a vicious cycle that serves no positive purpose. The only things that justify their existence are fear and the apparent hopelessness of it all. If those defined all our social policies we'll be in sad shape, wouldn't we?

Sure if you outlawed guns only criminals would get them. But that supply would eventually run out if it were illegal to manufacture guns. And if you're concerned about your own safety in a tough world, there are many non-lethal alternatives to guns. Many of them would be an effective defense against an attack. Police are already using these tools, and I don't see why they couldn't replace guns eventually.

I certainly don't have the answer, but I think we can all agree that a world without guns would be a better place. It's hard to know where to start but we should at least try, no?

psylichon

and I'd probably be the pussy who gets killed and whose wife was raped by the guy with the gun. I'd fight with all I got but I don't know if I could kill him. Killing's probably a lot harder than you think it is.



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Message 16/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  01:10 AM   -   RE: guns

errata

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yeah, a world without guns would be a better place. But a life that didn't require eating would mean no one would be hungry. I think it's not possible to COMPLETELY remove all guns from the picture. So i think as a tool there's no argument! Our govenrment is getting dangerously close to looking like a dictatorship. The only thing, I think... preventing the current administration from complete bald faced takeover of the process (they've already come very close to this) is the fear that the people won't go for it! That we'll riot and force them out of power! The american military has been testing the use of Soma derivitives for mass spraying on crowds. They explained this to the world as an "internal" issue, because it's development was for use in riot situations domesticaly.

What do you think these f*ckers would do if they knew the population wouldn't fight back?!

e



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Message 17/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  03:28 AM   -   RE: guns

Pongoid

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Eratta,
I'm really sorry, man. It's psylichon I should have been addressing. My bad. Please accept m appoligies. Misdirected comments. My sentiments still stand, just not directed towrds you.




Ape <---DUHHH!



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Message 18/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  04:21 AM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

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I kinda thought you were talking to me.

Yeah well i've never seen Michael Moore's shows or read any of his books but I know who he is and what he does and his new movie got me thinking.

'Programming' it is not. somebody should be talking about this shit.

psylichon



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Message 19/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  04:21 AM   -   RE: guns

influx

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no shit! I was about to call you on that, but you caught it yourself

psylichon..thing is..the powers that be will NEVER give up guns

dont fall victim for that "make it illegal and it will go away" BULLSHIT!

THEY have em, so WE need em

and yes, I would put a hole in someones head for MANY reasons. I know I'm a rational person, and if I felt that I was justified in doing so, I wouldnt hesitate.

I dont think Id feel too good about it, but much better than I would feel DEAD, or having allowed someone to get raped or maimed or the like.



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Message 20/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  04:28 AM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

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But where does that logic end? They have chemical weapons, should we? They have nukes. Man, a nuke would look wicked cool next to my Nova, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

There's lots of ways to kill someone quickly. Even at a distance. Why are guns so necessary? Why can't we make do with bows and arrows or something?

psylichon

I'm only half kidding



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Message 21/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  08:18 AM   -   RE: guns

errata

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Hehehehe... I thought that might be the case. No worries, now that I know I've not completely lost my mind!!!

e



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Message 22/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  09:38 AM   -   RE: guns

cheddar

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this looks like an American thing. NA Points:

It's always raped tortured excuse in the example, why can't a big guy be stealing your car, or asking you the time when your f*ked up on injectables or you've just shot someone else and you still have one in the pipe.

Pro gun people are animals WITH guns, which in todays world means that i must respect you

UK police are the most respected in Europe (ref somewhere)

If you have a gun in the house then the gun would quickly become 'the only option'. Like you try the baseball bat and that don't work so you call time to get the gun.

HAving said that I have no history with guns. But I have felt fear when investigating some noise in the house at 4am. And this whole argument falls to pieces if the survivalists were right.

pongoid shout for nukes, etc etc - dangerous talk is sexy. There was some reportage here from the early days of 9/11 that 3k jewish people didnt turn up for work turn up for work that day. Roy Orbison RArrrr



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Message 23/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  09:59 AM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

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And for the record, I don't believe the US government has resorted to street sniping to encourage its policies. I know they do horrible things that we don't know about, but a national story like the sniper just doesn't seem their style.

Just like those who believe that Bush wants to go to war JUST for political reasons. He would need to be an evil evil evil man to put so many lives on the line for his career and personal interests. While those things may cloud his judgement no doubt, it's naive and simplistic to think those are his only decision-making influences. He may be a stupid stupid stupid man and, yes, perhaps a little self-preoccupied. But think about what you're implying by saying that he would put lives of innocent soldiers at risk for nothing but his own benefit. Do you really believe that?

Just think about your conspiracy theories for a second.

psylichon



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Message 24/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  10:03 AM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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psylichon: 'But think about what you're implying by saying that he would put lives of innocent soldiers at risk for nothing but his own benefit. Do you really believe that'

A: It's not George, read Project for the New American Century.. it's cheney, rumsfeld et al

B: Yes, I really do believe that these guys are capable of whatever it takes, and that includes sacrificing as many americans as it takes, just read your history!

and good morning 



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Message 25/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  10:09 AM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

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ok, so there's no problem with Iraq then, it's all political.

Look, I don't want to go to war nor do I think we should, but it's STUPID to think that the US policy has no foundation AT ALL in Iraq's actions. Just admit there are many facets to this issue and it's not just political and I'll be happy.

And good morning to you, too   I still haven't slept....

psylichon



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Message 26/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  10:24 AM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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Mid-East oil 'too costly' for Europe

Well, the US and the UK need to control the middle east. The biggest threat at the moment to that control is Sadaam Hussein. Why are we threatening to invade? It is certainly NOT because he is a nasty dictator. There's a list as long as your arm of nasty dictators, a fair few of them installed, supported and armed by the US.

It's purely about power. And oil is power. Why are france and russia not interested in invading Iraq? Because Saddam gave a huge bunch of oil related contracts to them and they don't want to see their $multi-billion disappear into the hands of haliburton etc.

The link above is a very good article from Peter Hain (Europe Minister in the UK Government) about our dependency on oil from the middle east and why we need to get out from under because it neccessitates our continual involvement in the region and generates the resentment and hate that fuels the terrorists cause.



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Message 27/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  10:25 AM   -   RE: guns

cheddar

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For the record I do not believe that any wrong doing is occuring with our betters.

Whats that thing xoxos says about insects...



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Message 28/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  10:27 AM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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I for one welcome our (insert dominant party's name here) overlords.

Great people the romans!



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Message 29/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  10:32 AM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

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Is this mic on?

I'm not denying anything that you're saying. I'm aware of those issues. I'm just saying it's not a black and white issue.

Please tell me you can admit this much. If not, I call you fanatical.

psylichon



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Message 30/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  10:46 AM   -   RE: guns

CHEDDAR

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Where does the thought/action of a single person or group become merged into that grey. And more precisly can we back track to certain persons or groups to identify that though or action and then make judgement upon it's motivation.

I just re-typed 'person' over 'man'. Maybee we need some women in charge..?



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Message 31/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  01:22 PM   -   RE: guns

steef

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like Thatcher?



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Message 32/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  01:25 PM   -   RE: guns

formant

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" Yes that's right. I said it's the government behind this. "

ha!!! i knew it!!! i *knew* someone would try and say the US gov was behind this just like they said the gov was behind 911..

moving on....

guns, we do this like every 6 months right?

lemme find that article talking about the crime rate in london in the late 1800's when everyone carried a gun around versus today when only criminals have them... nah i may as well not because then someone will start on their causality speech.

pongoid i agree with you about the guns but not about the conspiracy bit :-)

the obvious alternative is to move to the countryside where you actually *need* a gun...  

then again you probably need a gun more if you live in the inner city.

think about it, no one is going to rob the apartment with a guy who is known to own a gun and puts smith & wesson stickers on all his windows... they are going to go for easier less life threatening prey.

i don't own a gun. if i move to the country i would get a pistol and rifle. target shooting is great fun!!!

jamey



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Message 33/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  02:13 PM     Edit: 18-Oct-02  |  02:27 PM   -   RE: guns

xoxos

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i've NEVER said that.

*please* don't even think about putting women in power (well...)

killing is easy.

"i will take my life if you will take my life, and we will love each other"

jamey: you still don't believe your "government" is responsible for 911? hunh, that's some real wild shit. oh yeah. "need" a gun. heh. "need" a gun. i'll say it again, i'm having such fun, "need" a gun... "mommy, i *need* it!!!" holy fucking shit. totally wild, man, wild. that's like jazz infusion logic.. hey.. it would be cool to put that need part in there.. copacetic, man, copacetic..

you know man this crazy cat in town he needed some hubcaps early this year.. i think he got $70 for them too!!!!! he only had to waste a mother and two children to get 'em too!!!! how many kids you got now, formant? say it with me now, motherfucker, need.. yeah.. i need that...

(i just say this.. it needs to be said.. all love for ya j tho you never seem to know it.. calm as the surface w/o wind..)



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Message 34/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  02:27 PM   -   RE: guns

xoxos

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shit..



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Message 35/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  02:31 PM   -   RE: guns

xoxos

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oh, and since no one else called him on it.. love ya too, p., but damn.. you shot yourself with your own gun? can't you taste the irony of that??? i won't taunt you, because i know that shit hurts (been shot at, never hit (except by a ricochet) but i've been with shootees)

align yourself with the luck plane! smoke more frop!



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Message 36/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  05:35 PM   -   RE: guns

errata

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"think about it, no one is going to rob the apartment with a guy who is known to own a gun and puts smith & wesson stickers on all his windows... they are going to go for easier less life threatening prey."

Yeah and if everyone had them stickers and them guns they'd be shootin each other far more often. Like I said, i see both sides and I definately thik that the people should have as much physical power as the corrupt, contemptable and F*cked up government. But i do think it's like nukes! Especially where Jamey's point is concerned! This goddamned cold war mentallity of I must have the same weapon as my enemy. It's what causes this crap! It's what causes a lot of the secondary conditions in our culture that make people the ANIMALS they're accused of being.

I prefer to see the potential in people and trust their goodness. Really! But if you don't want to, I'm not interested in taking away the security you have chosen. Our society's completely twisted and humans are unreliable. And if you want to own a gun, you must live with the consequences of that decision.

I could kill a person with a baseball bat much quicker than with a gun if they were in close quarters... hand held, stricking weapons are better than guns if you're indoors!!! Especially in the dark. A few of you have met me, I'm a pretty big guy. It better be a 45 if I'm pissed and I want to hurt you (not likely, it's an example kids)... 9mm would slow me but it wouldn't lay me down unless you were a good shot! Think about that when you're trying to protect your house/family. I'd rather have a sword!!! hehehe

e



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Message 37/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  06:26 PM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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Formant: So, if I have 'AK47/Light Artillery' stickers on my windows do you think they will go after the Smith&Wesson guys instead of me?

Then the guy next door upgrades to 'tactical nuclear weapon stickers' and I'm screwed again right?

I guees i could upgrade tio chem/bio stickers... hmmm...

Or whatever the North Koreans claim to have, which is 'worse than a nuke'

Which reminds me, shouldn't we be invading North Korea now?

If not, why not?



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Message 38/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  06:29 PM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

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zactly, zazza.

I'm puttin' in John Tesh stickers right now.

psylichon



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Message 39/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  06:52 PM     Edit: 18-Oct-02  |  06:55 PM   -   RE: guns

k

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suck my Koch!   lol!

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 40/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  06:54 PM   -   RE: guns

k

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hey!... checkout their groovey techno intro music!!

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 41/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  07:04 PM   -   RE: guns

xoxos

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i reckon these 'worse than nuke' attacks are noospheric/psychic weapons since there's plenty of evidence that they're in effect.



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Message 42/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  07:13 PM   -   RE: guns

errata

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See? it's the Germans! Techno and guns!!! Yeah!

it's like a Luc Besson flick! And they say Americans are out of control!

e



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Message 43/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  07:14 PM   -   RE: guns

pict

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Remote dwelling places and a reclusive lifestyle help to limit your chances of being shot and generally hassled by undesirables.If I lived amongst a population who only understood the language of the gun then maybe having a gun would be necessary.



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Message 44/147                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  08:54 PM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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You cave dwellers will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes...



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Message 45/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  10:25 AM   -   RE: guns

k

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yeah!

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 46/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  10:26 AM   -   RE: guns

JX3P0

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Ok,I have to say a gun saved my life without
taking a life.So I have no qualms about
shooting a wannabe gangster rapper when
he attacked me w/ a tire iron.i'm no little guy
but given the choice of tire iron/faceplant vs.
defending myself it was a no brainer.Now I
have to say it was very surreal and not
something I would want to do again.However
facing the same circumstance today i'm sure i
would react the same.As for the obsessive
culture in America it's no good.But a cop
couldn't have saved me.Maybe a surgeon but
not a cop.

H - I used to like guns but now they seem to
be more crap to empower the demise of the
silver spoonless.



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Message 47/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  10:38 AM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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hey, let them poor folks shoot each other.. saves us the trouble..

(haccchhh)

*sniff*



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Message 48/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  05:33 PM     Edit: 19-Oct-02  |  05:40 PM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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Yes, more guns are the answer, just look at the stats! (europe and the us only)



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Message 49/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  05:47 PM   -   RE: guns

milan

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woohoo! we´re almost as bad as london!



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Message 50/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  06:03 PM   -   RE: guns

damballah

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you'll notice that toronto isn't on there because they classify murders as "hunting accidents"



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Message 51/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  07:51 PM   -   RE: guns

Pongoid

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Ok, kiddies dig this. I want to show you what happens in an almost gunless society.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49390-2002Oct18.html


That area has no guns to fight back against somebody who REALLY is embodying the term terrorist. Most this other shit was mild on the terror scale, but this is a place that has been unarmed in the interest of liberal humanistic fuckwit lefty asshole do-gooders, and now they are being fucked in the ass one bullet at a time as people die.


I can guarantee you with no hesitation whatsoever that something like this could not happen nearly this long in NH.

WHY? Because the local populace would form militias and gun every fucker down who starts taking pots shots at innocents. The only times you hear about people and guns in NH is when they rise up against the cops (as they should), or maybe in a personal grudge, but it never gets out into being the random public...why? Because folks there realise that your business is your business, and if you can't handle your business, it's your problem and not theirs until you make it so. You make it a community problem, and the community will take care of you, one way or the other.

When you start trying to run others ' lives without realizing the consequences of your good intentions, you get shit like this. Combine this with a media who loves to lie and blow shit completely out of proportion to a public that prefers terror over lack of stimulation in their dull wage slave lives, and you have the sad state of today.

People are talking about a sniper who's only shooting 250 yards tops. That's not a sniper at all!!!! That's your average military expert shooter.

Little hint for you folks. Every soldier in the army, and every Marine, (I don't know about the Navy or airforce basic training regimens) are trained to hit targets at ranges out to 300 metres. In the army there are three levels of qualification with weapons and other tools: Marksman, Sharpshooter, and Expert. Experts are not that rare, and EVERY single person you see in either an Army or Marine uniform has to at least be able to make 250 metre shots or they can't qualify to be in the military at all, period. It's part of the job description and requirements.

A Sniper on the other hand has to be able to make headshots at more than double that range. To qualify as a military sniper, one has to be able to approach a target unseen (and I mean UNSEEN! It's amazing what training and ghillie suits can do.) and make between a 600 to 1000 yard shot with a window of opportunity of about ten seconds, and then get out of the firing area undetected.

The idea of using sniper tactics is superior range and undetectability to so that even when the objective has been eliminated, all of the return fire is misdirected, and confusion ensues.
This guy/team isn't doing that.
Also in the places this guy is shooting, there isn't enough space/range to make those kinds of shots.

A white van was found with a casing a tarot card and an assault rifle of the same calibre as the shooter's bullets, and yiou know what? The owner was released without charge. Know why? Cuz all that shit about tarot cards is just hype and misinformation.

I'd be willing to put money on the goal of this operation, be it one person, or part of a larger conspiracy is to take away more guns from the law-abiding public, and leave us even more vulnerable to governmental, and zealot terrorism. And it's working, thanks to the fucking asshole shithead, dickweed idiot bastards that run the media and want better ratings so they can get that Extra special shade of red on their next Ferarri, and the ether wash on their blow instead of just acetone.

$.02


Ape



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Message 52/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  09:20 PM   -   RE: guns

Steve Roughley

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Calm down mate! I certainly dislike the idea of angry people owning guns!

A couple of points to make. He's a fucking sniper mate!!! Maybe not by profession and maybe not that talented at his chosen pastime, but he is still hiding and shooting from afar. These victims wouldn't have a chance to fire back even if they all carried assault rifles. Not only that but history has proved time and time again that giving the general, untrained and quite often uneducated, public the power to run around vigilante style will result in far worse problems.

Regards.

Steve.



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Message 53/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  09:20 PM     Edit: 19-Oct-02  |  09:56 PM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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ok, so imagine everyone is armed to the teeth and terrified.. and someone is shot through the head from a range of say 250 metres?

Then what happens?

A bunch of untrained marksmen/women all start shooting the nearest white van driver or what?

Really, how does this work?



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Message 54/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  09:53 PM   -   RE: guns

xoxos

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i knew a guy who was 'expert' shooter in panama.. had eleven kills on his record. once i said 'upright electric bass' and he starts singing 'uuuuupright eleeeectric baaaass' and cracking up.

it was funny. but also not.



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Message 55/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  11:33 PM   -   RE: guns

Pongoid

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You're not getting it, dickheads. It's not from a range of 250 metres. This shit is happening at like 40 metres. Yes there is somebody out there using one bullet at a time, and hitting his targets, but that's not a fucking sniper. The media is blowing this all out of proportion and you are feeding the fire.

Zazza,
The van did NOT belong to the shooter. A van was found with what could have been the right tools and a tarot card, and a spent shell of what could be the correct bullet diameter, but OBVIOUSLY, FUCKING OBVIOUSLY, they weren't freshly fired, and thus have no bearing on the case, so this white van thing is TOTALLY irrelevant. Read your facts. Get them straight. Bets are it's either uncle sam or a gun lobbyist trying to get more guns taken away from the public by attacking a gun-free community. Fucking depraved cowardice.

Anger and its expression are not the objective, Steve. Solving the problem is, and trusting idiots with nothing more than a high-school diploma, and some legal parroting, without really even understanding what the laws are about except to justify their exertion of power and authority over others is not what stops this type of atrocity. Get it yet?


Ever owned a gun? Ever fired one? Then what the fuck do you know about them apart from what you and your fucking booksmart idealistic teachers shit into the space between your ears, because if you had, you'd realize the awesome responsibility that comes with even holding such a tool of potential destruction in your hands. For those who have, then you know exactly what I'm talking about.

This anti-gun bullshit ranks up there with pro-lifer garbage from fucking assholes that have never had to deal with an unwanted, or impossible pregnancy. You don't know what it's like until you're in the situation where you need one, and then it's too late if you're not prepared.

You think it's pleasant killing another living being, be it an animal or human? You think it's nice and it's fun, and people really like that shit? It takes some serious tapping into some primal part of our being to do it, and it's almost never a good place to be for an extended period, but it is a part of us, and a necessary one from time immemorial.

Most hunters I know feel proud when they take their prey cleanly, with the minumum amount of pain or struggle. None of them I know like to watch their prey thrash about in agony or runniing for miles, trying to outdistance the reaper.

I used to be a target shooter, and I know the satisfaction that comes with willing that piece of metal and heat from the tool in my hands to the exact place that I want it to pass sucessfully, so that it's not some wild, dangerous energy, that could randomly hurt or kill any and all in its path. To do it properly, you have to train your heart to skip a bit at will. It's a very Zen act, much like archery. The mechanics are different, but the discipline is similar.

BTW, who do you think it was that shrugged off the last oppressive regime here? The fucking gun owners. Who will do it now? The drug makers, the code-breakers, the bomb-builders, the independent media wizards, the radical freaks, and the once again the FUCKING GUN OWNERS. All those folks that the government and it's ass-kissing shit-stirring media-mind-programming-suck-hounds continue to call terrorists and wacko extremists.

Think about it.


Ape



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Message 56/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  11:46 PM     Edit: 20-Oct-02  |  12:03 AM   -   RE: guns

Steve Roughley

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Pongoid, I used to live in Australia where I would regularily go camping in the country and hunt Kangaroos, Rabbits etc. I have used .303 and .22 Rifles as well as shotguns. When I visited my relatives in Canada, I whent on a handgun proficiency course where I learned and used several different handguns. Yet, I still hate guns! And I still believe that, due to the basic fact that humans are emotionally driven and all-to-often irresponsible creatures, giving them more guns and the power that comes with owning such a machine is plain STUPID!

Yes I believe that we need to do something to protect ourselves, but giving Jo Bloggz, who never made further education, a gun is a silly and irresponsible thing to do. Guns just make killing to easy for this to be a good idea. Not only that, but people often use guns for 'game' hunting. So many hunters don't even eat their kill and that is a bloody waste! What fun! Lets all kill endangered animals, stuff them and put them on our walls! Christ, what is the definition of dementia again?

God! Look what's happened to me. I usually try to avoid these damned debates. I have a head-ache. Where's my Carlsberg Export?!?  

Regards.

And happy killing!

Steve.



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Message 57/147                 Date: 19-Oct-02  @  11:50 PM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

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do you sleep with your gun?

Your poetic descriptions of death tools don't do much for a pacifist like me. Much like my pussy-ass whining and bleeding heart whatever isn't going to change your love of hot metal. To each his own. But I'm allowed to have an opinion about guns even though I've never fired one. And I'm allowed to have an opinion on killing others, even though I never have and hopefully never will. I mean jesus, you can take the experience argument only so far.

Putting a gun in my hand is not going to change my mentality. Obviously you were raised by the gun so taking it out of your hand ain't gonna do much for you either.

Get it?

psylichon



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Message 58/147                 Date: 20-Oct-02  @  12:42 AM   -   RE: guns

influx

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all I can say is pongoid my man...nuff respect in SO many areas, but you have turned into one incredibly smug, antagonistic elitist who calls people idiots and dickheads at the drop of the hat, simply for stating their opinions

this is a far cry from the guy who spent quite some time rappin with me on the phone, explaining things patiently to me with an impressive willingness to help

now all you do is call everyone fools and imply that YOU and YOU ALONE are the only one that understands the workings of the world.

sorry man but you need to come down a bit.



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Message 59/147                 Date: 20-Oct-02  @  01:37 AM   -   RE: guns

steef

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a bit?



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Message 60/147                 Date: 20-Oct-02  @  01:59 AM   -   RE: guns

influx

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I say "a bit" because I feel like I do understand where Pongoid is coming from..its called exasperation. But throwing the baby out with the bathwater...well...



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Message 61/147                 Date: 20-Oct-02  @  07:17 AM   -   RE: guns

Pongoid

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Psil,
I'm in Cali now, and no guns of mine are here. Mine are locked in a safe, and well looked after, however, back in the day, I tell you no lie when I say that under my left arm was a pistol, under my right leg a twelve-guage, at arms lenth was my rifle, and my knife was under my pillow. I lived in crack central of my city, cuz I could afford no more rent, and more than one crack-head was sent back out of my window by the sound of the pump of my 12 before anybody could be hurt or anything stolen.

I won't go into the rest of it from that era , as that should at least give you some idea of how crazy things can get and have gotten. You won't "get it" and apparently neither will I by your reckoning, so there we stand, but do not ever attempt to disarm me, or I will do my utmost to dis-life you.

Some say live by the sword, die by the sword, but I doubt any of those folks ever had to pick the glass out of their parent's head, from some rogue wacko shooter who just decided to take a pot shot at somebody just minding their own business in their own living room, and got lucky enough to miss. I did, and my father still has the scars to prove it.


That's not to mention the rest of my family members who got missed by inches from flying pellets. Guess what? That wacko didn't own or use a legally purchased or registered weapon.

So much for your fucking gun control.



Steve,
I can vouch for the stupidity of some gun users, and the shamefulness of sport hunting, and am in total agreeance that these and countless other ignorant acts are WRONG, so wrong that the wrong doers should have their wrongness turned on them in the hopes of seeing the errors of their ways.

I'm not about to debate this, because in those cases you are right. I think irresponsible use of firearms and other potentially lethal devices including automobiles is an absolute atrocity, and should certainly be viewed with disdain, but the reality is that more people die every year in auto mishaps than shootings (aside from military actions, which are in fact supposed to be carried out by trained personnel).

Cars cause a million times the pollution that firearms do in our world, but do you see anybody at all lobbying to stop car use entirely? Damn few bicyling enthusiasts maybe, and wait until they need an ambulance...but apart from them? I don't and I try to stay pretty well on top of that stuff believe it or not. Nethanol, SVO, and Hydrogen are the next logical steps, but more on that another time.

Influx,
If I'm coming off like I'm on a high horse here, it's because in this case, bro, I know this stuff like most humans should not EVER have to. It also stems from the fact that knowing this and seeing others' responses and expressions, I'm absolutely appalled by some of the ideas and naivete. In this case, I'm even offended, as we're talking about shit that has DEEP effects on peoples lives and the future of all living things as we know it.

We're not talking about parking tickets. We're talking about the right to defend our very lives, and to take it from others that are enlslaving or diminishing, or trying to end ours. This isn't some sort of lightweight shit dude. Get it straight!!!! This is the stuff that nations are based on, and makes or breaks entire cultures, civilizations, histories, races, and even species.

Look at the history of the Americas. It's not all proud to say the least, in fact in most cases it's downright shameful, but you cannot simply turn your noses up and discount the importance of the roles that firearms have played in the establishment and maintainence of what has become our culture, heritage, and our legacy.

We have everything in our lives because of the gun. We eat because of the gun, we have our homes because of it. We do not live in THX1138's(correct?) world because of it, nor in Orwell's 1984 (although we may if we give up our rights any further). I've said enough on this for now. The fact that many don't see this or choose to ignore it, I find disappointing.



All,
I'm not at all for senseless violence, so please don't make that mistake and piss me off by branding me as ignorant or promoting irresponsibility for one's actions. That shit is deplorable, but to try to pull the teeth of all law abiders in the hopes of weeding out the irresponsible is fucking retarded because it doesn't work, and just makes things worse, and trying to encourage such stupidity just makes me think thoughts of hatred, anger and resentment towards those so inclined. Strange as it may sound, and I know you can't see it for all of your benign intentions, you as humans are the problems, not the guns.

People are the problem. Ignorance is the problem. Lack of responsibility and education are the problems. Lack of information is the problem. The tools are not the problem. Those of you that can't get it through your thick fucking heads and accept the FACT that people are the problem, and just want to band-aid real problems in our society and species by trying to legislate perfection through weakening our abilities to preserve our own lives because you think you know what's best for everyone need to pull your heads out of each others asses and wake up.

You have no right to tell others that they cannot possibly be responsible for their own actions. Just the opposite. You have the duty to teach them responsibility and educate them, and then let them choose their paths and deal with the consequences of their actions, and if they perform actions that violate the sanctity and safety of others then punish them severely and try to rehabilitate them as fully as possible, but don't punish and limit them before they've done wrong. That's what a fucking lame parent does to an unwanted, and unloved child.

As sentient and self-aware beings we have a duty to look after each other and the rest of the planet. Whatever religious text you follow if any should say something to the effect that we are here as the earth's stewards.

That should not be translated as 'exploiters', but 'keepers and maintainers in trust of all life'. If you feel otherwise, as in that 'we are here to rule over, and drive into utter submission or extinction all forms of life in the interest of the profit and comfort of a few humans', then maybe conversation is pointless, and you need to not have the gun, because you are obviously not worthy of the privelage and responsibilities of dominion over life and death of others.

I AM my brother's keeper, and for some maybe a guide, but master of nobody aside from myself (and I'm still trying to master all of who and what I am).

Does this sound so high on the horse or unreasonable?

Ape



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Message 62/147                 Date: 20-Oct-02  @  10:11 AM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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pongoid, doesn't it occur to you that the rampant gun-toting culture has CAUSED the ridiculous situation that americans find themselves in, where normal citizens need to be armed to the teeth to protect their lives and property. Please explain why the murder rate is so unbelievably high in the states sompared to say the UK?

And the white van thing, yeah, THAT white van wasn't the right one, but would every gun carrying citizen be kept up to date with the latest information or would more innocent people die in the crossfire?

Meanwhile US movies and music export gun culture across the world.

Do you seriously think that an armed citizen/militia could go up against the US army/National Guard? Tanks, missiles etc etc... good luck. I suggest you start the revolution now.

But I guess there are so many guns out there in the US it's all too late. 65 million handguns
in the US. So it's probably such a gun saturated culture that it would take a generation or two for gun laws to have any discernible effect. Well, you made your bed so I guess you have to lie in it. I don't envy you.



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Message 63/147                 Date: 20-Oct-02  @  10:13 AM     Edit: 20-Oct-02  |  08:46 PM   -   RE: guns

influx

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nope. not in the slightest. Somehow you missed my point, holmes

its the name calling. you throw the word fools around, and many other names...insinuating that, again, it's you and you alone who has a handle on things.

sometimes its almost akin to religious zealotry, as if NO ONE else could even possibly grasp the weight of our current state of affairs?

personally, I can't. I will admit that. I don't claim to understand anything really, but for you to sit there and call me an idiot or fool (because yes, I am one of the "them" that you so clearly despise) is just...incredibly offensive



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Message 64/147                 Date: 20-Oct-02  @  11:25 PM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

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Ape-

I understand where you're coming from. Or should I say I "understand" (we both know what I mean). I've heard stories like yours from various people throughout my life, and while I can't really relate I can at least use it as a frame of reference so I recognize how wonderful and lucky my life has been so far.

I won't try to discredit any of your sentiments despite the fact that I can't agree with them. I just wonder if you've ever considered how things could have been. What if those things never happened to you? If everything was different... if your life was simpler and less dramatic, would you still hold the same affinity toward guns simply because of governmental threat? Would guns be the immediate solution to security to they are to you now?

See, it's not that I don't understand that people live in conditions where guns are necessary. I just like to try and get down to the philosophical and archtypeal crux of society and it seems that, logically, guns don't really promote anything but death in any society. Once you start with guns, it may become increasingly difficult to stop the trend but that doesn't mean it's not a noble effort to try.

I really think when it comes down to it, guns do no good for a society. They may "work" for some people on a case-by-case basis, but as far as the social organism is concerned they are only an infected lesion that spreads to the bloodstream of a society.

I don't think guns are necessary just to control our governemtn. I may be naive, but I don't see American society in this day and age just laying down to an oppressive government, guns or not. Fuck what anyone says, we're smarter than that. We don't show it on a regular basis, but Americans if nothing else are cynical and will not take shit for long if it affects life and liberty. There are a lot of fuckups in the governemt, but I have faith that there are enough people that actually care about the nation and the planet to stop those people from going too far.

Please please please forgive me if I'm way crossing the line here (I know I sound like I'm psychoanalyzing, but I'm really just conjecturing), but in some way I think you are proud of your past. If for no other reason than the experience it gave you. And though you may wish no one experiences your horrors, I'll bet you're proud that you got through it and have great faith in the person they made you. More power, man, but you have to recognize that yours isn't the only way. And it may not be the "right" way. If you respect life like I think you do I think you can recognize that ideally, guns shouldn't exist.

Now it's not an ideal world but for all the ranting we do to try and make it so I can't believe we can't all agree that guns are a bad situation that never should have been. I'll stop for now...

psylichon



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Message 65/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  12:54 AM   -   RE: guns

Pongoid

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Look, what the fuck does not sink in? Why is it so fucking hard for the weak of mind and soul to accept their own weakness, and take the goddamn blame for being the fault here? A TOOL DOES NOHING WITH NO HAND TO WIELD IT. Some of you are such shitheads, ready to point the finger at anything but the root of the problem...yourselves. Yes there are irresponsible people all over, but how many more people are dying EVERY DAY from auto accidents?

In one walk today I saw more irresponsible drivers in the span of twenty minutes, almost killing themselves and others around them than all of the foolish and irresponsible use of firearms I've seen in person in my entire life, no exaggeration. However that's commonplace, so we'll turn our heads the other way, and not worry about it. How many die every day in this country from auto accidents? Gun accidents and intentional shootings combined? Then what are you talking about gun bans for? Cars are many times more dangerous than guns. If I shoot you in the leg you hurt, no two ways about it. If I drive into your leg with a car, you go flying and are much more likely to die. So what are you even talking about guns for? Because the media fuckheads are blowing some pot shot dickhead out of proportion? Becasue the media glamorizes and sensationalizes irresponsibility with potentially lethal devices, and techniques? Guns don't make movies. Guns don't operate themselves.


And who the fuck are any of you to tell me I'm wrong for going out target shooting at a range? Do I tell you you're wrong for going running, or playing video games or rock climbing, or skateboarding, or doing whatever it is you like to do to relax? What about if it was knife throwing, or archery, or demolition? Would it matter? Think about that before you answer it.


Zazza, you insult me. Don't. You obviously are not putting this into perspective and just want to try to shove my statements up my ass because you do not agree, so let me return the hostility by and asking you with those notions of my ignorance and lunacy, and your foolish suggestions that I try to perform some sorry and pointlessly defiant act, and take a flying fuck at the moon. Don't ever try to paint me as stupid. I'll not take your shit or anybody else's.


Here's a thought that occurred this morning:
Ghandi.
Was he a great man? Did his policy of peaceful resistance get his people killed? How many less would have died if they'd taken up arms? How many "surplus " people did it take to prove his point? And what was that point? "I can keep throwing my people to agonizing and painful unnarmed pointless needless deaths until you look like the asshole for counterring their resistance?" How many of those people who stood up and died helplessly do any of you know the names of?

I mean you can talk all the ideology you want, but the reality is that might makes right, be it might of the muscle, or technology or the mind itself. That's nature, like it or not.

As far as my life goes, I can't imagine how things would have been different, you're talking about chaos. All of those events make me who I am. You're asking "What if you weren't you? Who would you be?" How the fuck do you answer that?


Making guns illegal does not make them disappear. It just makes the law abider's life more dangerous, and helpless. It's too late for "what if"s. It's time for "What now"s.

Ape



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Message 66/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  01:49 AM   -   RE: guns

JX3P0

Posts: 28

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As for the militia vs. technology, ever heard of
improvised munitions?You know bombs and
shit.As far as DC being unarmed,that's just
the nice areas.DC is definitely armed to the
teeth.I'd like to see the "sniper" go over to the
PJs and try that shit.That would be funny as
hell.IMHO the tarot card is a ruse by the
police.I noticed in one of the reports a counter
terrorist task force jacket on one of the
piggys.Just like the "random" shooting by the
Egyptian at the LAX El Al ticket counter.Fact is
our govt. can attempt to control us but there's
no way they can protect us from god loving
gunmen.Especially christians.Just wait a few
more years and they'll start suicide bombing
i'm sure of it.My bet's on the southern
baptists.Nice thing about explosives is if they
aren't assembled you can keep them handy
legally.Just in case.Gun control is the biggest
joke.You could easily get a slingshot and take
two pieces of fishing lead, some fishing line
and make one hell of a bone slicing mini
bolo.You can get all that from Wal
Mart.Besides all you need if you had an
enemy with some missiles is to catch em
slippin and then you've got missiles.Besides
in a combat situation every dead guy is more
hardware for you.The coolest thing about DC
being "unarmed" is the prices you can get for
even a Lorcin .380.In America the people who
want guns will always be able to obtain them
easily.Since my conviction I'm not able to get a
gun,yeah right.Just watch the news and keep
telling yourself it's the truth.

H



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Message 67/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  03:08 AM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

Posts: 15

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Okay, I've been lurking on this subject long enough, and as a frame of reference for those who think that the only people who are pro-firearms are the chaotic, dramtic, angry people, well, you are far from the truth. Admittedly my life hasn't had half the frightening experiences that others have shared, nonetheless I am all for arming ourselves. But what is so incredibly irritating is the ignorance that most of our society carries against guns. Most of it, yes is of course the glamour and bullshit of our ever so clever media. Showing you gun accidents and children dying as a result of having a weapon. It's straight up bullshit. The problem with firearms is the fact that alot of idiots aren't trained or use the properly and that's how accidents happen. People not taking the precautions....yes, the personal responsiblity factor.
I was raised by a member of the NRA, and a Hunter Safety Instructor. By age 12 I had my hunting license, (and no not trophy game hunting). By age 16 my brother and I received our first rifle. At that point I had been to numerous target practices. Like others I enjoy the hell outta those target shootings. I was taught safety, how to survive with one, how to protect myself with one and taught to respect it, and to take owning a weapon seriously. If half the people out there treated their firearms properly than the rest of us wouldn't have to pay for their idiocy.
I was never taught to go around showing our metal, or talking about our metal or using it as a tool of force. But I'll tell you one thing, if I ever found someone with their barrell placed at my sister's head, and I had the chance, you can be sure I'd blow him away....no hesitation. The same way I was ready to do it when some fucking prick followed my mother home from work late one night, brandishing HIS weapon. You know where I was? On the second story roof with the pistol in my hand, lying on my tummy watching the perimeter of my house. No fucking lie. Protecting my mom until my dad could get home. Isolated incident, but it was my only form of defense at the time, and thank god I knew how to use it. It's the ones that don't, that fuck everything up for everyone else, that give others this wacky idea that firearms are bad when they are not, but instead a tool, just like any other weapon.

It's been said here already, guns don't kill, people kill. It's true, and when you haven't lived in an environment that relies on them or haven't ever experienced what it's like to HAVE to protect someone, then you'll never really understand. People are killed by far greater means than by a firearm....you just don't hear about it.
The reality of this world is such that weapons are a tool for survival...beit hunting for food, protecting your own or protecting yourself. The wise are the ones who don't go out and act irresponsible with them. I can't get over all the stereotypes that are associated with firearm owners. Absolutely amazing. People get educated will ya?
Never will I, nor my family lay ours down as long as others our protecting themselves the same way we are. I think the cowboys and indians had the right idea.
Oh yes, and FYI, all the firearms my father has owned and kept in his house, and the ones my mother owns and siblings own...guess what? NOT ONE ACCIDENT. And that is not by chance or any form of luck. That is due to responsibility, and when the line is drawn I'll be over here with mine.



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Message 68/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  03:14 AM   -   RE: guns

influx

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well said.

Pongoids points are valid too...

some of the other stuff..the anti-gun stuff...based too much on idealistic "what ifs"

if EVERY SINGLE weapon on the entire planet was vaporized...including the cops, the military, everything...then maybe it might be good?

but until then all this crap talk about making them illegal is just rhetoric.

I dont own any weapons, as I live in a place where I dont need em right now...but thats gonna change and odds are i will go out, get a license (which will include training time) and no doubt get me one

the world is a fucked up place, and if someone expects me to lay down and take it when someone comes to me...forget that shit.

pongoid..my only beef is with the attitude you put forward, NOT your argument. On that part I agree with you wholeheartedly



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Message 69/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  03:14 AM   -   RE: guns

influx

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heh. "guns dont kill people, people kill people"

so lets eliminate PEOPLE then!



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Message 70/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  03:31 AM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

Posts: 15

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Educate not eliminate. :o)



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Message 71/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  04:12 AM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

Posts: 4573

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I'm an idealist. I'm the only one around here that wants the world to be a better place? Fuck me. If we can't be idealists than there's no fuckin' point. There are lots of seemingly helpless social problems, but this one is just too helpless to fix?

I'm sorry Pongoid, I don't buy your car argument because autos definitely serve another purpose beside killing. Guns don't (excpet for maybe opening a door or two, but that's not how they're sold). Yes cars kill, but not purposefully.

I agree with all you gun people on the fact that we're probably past the point of no return on this issue. Taking guns out of people's hands is "unamurican" now, but that doesn't mean putting them there in the first place was right. Fuck if you can't see that!

The thing that I find interesting is that the only people that support guns in a philosophical manner seem to be people that grew up with guns. Even the way you guys talk about them is poetic and loving. Is there anyone here who doesn't own a gun who supports the philosophy of gun ownership? (Not the reality of guns but whether they are a good thing or not)

Fuck, If I'm not allowed to ponder what is best for society, then I just give up. We all talk about changing the world but in the end it's talk. I'm not doing anything about it (besides never owning a gun) but at least I can imagine a world without tools that serve no purpose but death. You guys can't even do that. Don't tell me my beliefs mean nothing... THAT'S a fuckin' lie!

I want to make it harder for people to kill one another. woo! I'm wacky! watch my sniff a flower and dance all crazy! Crazy hippy man!!!! head in the clouds!!!!!!

psylichon



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Message 72/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  04:22 AM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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Ideology won't help you survive. Reality will.



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Message 73/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  04:39 AM   -   RE: guns

Pongoid

Posts: 2003

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Nah, go ahead and be a romantic, and later though I hope not with all of my heart, you will be a victim. I mean that when I say that I do not wish it upon you, but don't be surprised by human depravity.

The idea is not to live in a dream world til you get fucked in the ass by reality. It's to prepare for the worst, hope/pray for the best, and as reality falls somewhere in between, it all comes as a bonus. Works for me, anyhow.


Ape



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Message 74/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  04:40 AM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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OMG, I just re-read what you wrote earlier Psy...you'd allow yourself to be killed and your wife raped???!!!! WTF?? You don't know if you could kill him? Christ. Remind me not to marry you.



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Message 75/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  05:16 AM   -   RE: guns

influx

Posts: 7627

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"Is there anyone here who doesn't own a gun who supports the philosophy of gun ownership?"

raises hand. I dont own a gun, but I see their necessity in THIS WORLD AS IT CURRENTLY IS.

my thing is...the people that want to take them away..the gubment...they want them out of OUR hands, but more in THEIR hands?

I dont fucking think so.

and psylichon..I didnt call you a flower sniffing hippy, and I dont see you that way. Your views are always presented clearly and effectively, and unlike pongoid, I dont see them as unreasonable, just a bit unrealistic (again, when applied to a current state of affairs)

whats funny is that I am incredibly idealistic, but all these "should be's" sometimes blind us to the reality...

doesnt mean we cant want to change things, but...

aww jeez its so fucking confusing!



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Message 76/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  06:01 AM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

Posts: 4573

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heh... I feel ya man. It's tough. I know I'm in my own world here, but I want to think it could work. Just don't rule it out is all I ask.

I love this place.

psylichon

p.s. - I wouldn't ask my wife to kill for me either. You people place too much importance on your own survival.



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Message 77/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  06:18 AM   -   RE: guns

JX3P0

Posts: 28

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I don't own a gun.Not because uncle scam
says I can't but because mainly I stopped
renting my studio out to G dogz.Fuck on my
way home tonight some big ass jerry curl MF
got out of his car and said he'd kick my ass if i
didn't stop following him.I was like yo we're at
a red light.WTF is this world coming top that
peeps have to be so violent when you could
just stop smoking boat and thinking i'm gonna
ram your crap ass econoline w/ a
plymouth.Come on the world is full of crazies.I
had to think about it and almost went and
picked up a gun tonight.But i'm playing uncle
scams game.Yes training is good but let me
tell you when it comes down to it all the
training in the world won't save you if you can't
react as if it's a natural extension of your
thought process.Reaction is key.It's the only
reason i'm alive.Look my best friend is facing
a murder 1 charge right now.It makes me
think about how dangerous the world is and
it's hard to escape that reality when you're of
the lower middle class on down.Why
someone would go out and attack someone
unprovoked unless it's to achieve a political
end doesn't fly with me.Yeah people piss me
off sometime but you can't hunt a helpless
victim if you're basically a good person.I'm a
product of a bad subculture and I fight
personal battles everyday but to see these
white MCs spouting off about gats and killing
all in the name of a bullshit thug culture is
whack.never once will you catch me spitting
about murder cause it's bullshit.Sure I sent a
nigga on a helicopter ride but i still give a shit
about the cat cause he's a person with a
life,That's why I didn't kill him.it's not my place
to decide when someones time is up.It's just
that when confronted to back down is the best
option.i don't and never have gotten g rap.Why
tell a story about something that glamourizes
a bad thing.But when it comes down to you or
me it's gonna be me who walks away unless
it's my time.Just like the other night some cats
(3) got killed in the lil hip hop club over drug
dealing and hos.That's bullshit.Yep it's a crazy
world but if you keep your wits aboutr you
gunplay should only be a last defensive
resort.seen.just make sure that if you tote a
gun that you know you can do the business
cause it might get used against you.because
the first time someone pulls a gat on me and
threatens they're gonna get it taken away and
limp around the rest of their life thinking about
me.

H

H



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Message 78/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  07:39 AM   -   RE: guns

GT

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nicely said pongoid; so nice to hear a realist

in a sea of bleeding-heart uniformists.



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Message 79/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  08:36 AM   -   RE: guns

influx

Posts: 7627

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so wait..GT..youre a right wing GUN SLINGER?

uh oh.

hey H..."but to see these white MCs spouting off about gats and killing all in the name of a bullshit thug culture "

can you clarify this? Is it somehow better that "black" MCs do it even more frequently?



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Message 80/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  08:53 AM   -   RE: guns

brad

Posts: 486

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On a related note, breaking news from Los Angeles Mr.Wet (me) was down there for the first time ever on saturday nite AND NOT FIVE MINUTES OFF THE FREEWAY FOUND MYSELF IN THE MIDDLE OF A FUCKING GUNFIGHT.

For real, it wasn't down the block, this kid was RIGHT NEXT to my car unloading a big black .45 at some other kids across the street. This was on a little sidestreet right b4 Adams- just around the corner from my destination- Club Fais Do Do.

Anyway, I sat there stupid for a second like, "hey that guy is shooting a gun 10 feet from my car while I'm creeping up on him at 10mph" b4 my brain said stop fucking thinking and DUCK!!!

So I ducked and floored it, got past all the gangsters running around in the street w/out seeing anything but the floorboards, popped my head up and took the corner at like 40mph and stopped in the middle of Adams b/c cop cars were just swarming in from every direction. Still don't know how exactly I did it, but there ya go.

...would you believe there was another shooting a few hours later!?! And just last week some kid got shot and killed in the same area. Yeah, some weekly hip-hop party right next to fais do do, lots of underage kids it looked like. Much flexing, stupid shit. A huge waste of young lives, totally fucked.

But it doesn't change my own position on guns, which is basically pro legal guns, pro self defense. Like my Kung Fu master told a less-than-streetwise/realistic student once, not everyone grew up in a neighborhood where they all smile at you. He wasn't talking specifically about guns, but just the fact that...it ain't all good...wake up and recognize that.



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Message 81/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  09:35 AM     Edit: 21-Oct-02  |  09:37 AM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

Posts: 1502

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It's not anthrax that kills people, it's people.

Pongoid. Ewww... you are so angry and very scary... it doesn't sound like you need much motivation to shoot someone, so maybe I should just stop arguing my 'bleeding heart liberal' corner eh?

Well, the bottom line seems to be that US citizens are so terrified of each other's capacity for violence that you don't really have a choice but to arm yourselves.

Interstingly, none of you pro-gun people have answered my relatively simple question:

'How come so many more people die from gun related incidents in the US than in countries where there are strict gun laws?'

Just to let you know, in my entire life and I grew up in the equivalent of the harlem in london, I have NEVER seen a gun wielded in anger.
I was there in the middle of the riots in Brixton. I have been threatened with knives and had a machete buried into the wall next to my head and been beaten up, but NEVER seen a gun. When I walk down the street, the policemen are NOT carrying guns, imagine that!

What would you suggest we do in the UK... promote the ownership of guns so that we can shoot each on a more regular basis? Or would that make things worse. Really, what do you think, I'm very interested.



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Message 82/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  11:41 AM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

Posts: 15

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Brad, was this shooting at Databass? There have been two shootings out here at Jungle/DnB clubs that have caused one club to be shut down. Heard the most recent was at Databass.
Those mindless shootings are sad.



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Message 83/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  03:05 PM   -   RE: guns

BJT

Posts: 90

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Guns...hmmm...they're just no good!



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Message 84/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  05:51 PM   -   RE: guns

CHEDDAR

Posts: 673

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PUSSY SHIT

If you gonna make a terror war then don't be surprised to see and feel the word. Fair enough really.

Make gun in life - live gun - see gun need to satisfy. When are you good people going to see that your responses are not your own, oh you may have stories - don't we all, but it belongs to others, you were/are a part and the "them" "us" BS is just an excuse to cosy your world view and spread the divide and rule. I am not pointing but right now the US has a military and finacial machine which cowes the world, talk terror!.

OK so it ain't you Jo doin this and you are versed in tasting the fester flavour and it gets worse and nobody can understand your pain and they don't have any sympathy and then all these brits keep winning Oscars and where the f*-* is England anyway? Pl-e-a-s-e. But what is that to me. Not much - I am not trolling but the rain is falling outside for this duck.

Whats the point. Divide and rule, who wants to divide, who rules, so f-*n what! keep it down - get the beats movin.



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Message 85/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  05:56 PM   -   RE: guns

w

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It's time to set up buy-back-gun-programs...when one does not own a gun...theres less fear. Guns are for the feared.. I'm tired of living in a world where people expose fear.

Yes, America is saturated beyond belief with guns...and with that ..leads to many accidents and extentions to the idea of using them in a real life situtation it's completely irrational and prehistoric ers..

LIke my fried getting shot by his gf over another girl...come on wake up.



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Message 86/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  06:23 PM   -   RE: guns

GT

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right of center; i don't own a piece, but like having the option.



let's see we have purchasable drugs and purchasable guns...both being adverse to your health if applied incorrectly.


so glad the politicians think FOR the euro's while we have Freedom of Choice in defence of our homes and families. as for the drug using, gun toting hoods, they will ALWAYS find shit on the black market. (tough one to except it seems)

{CUT TO SCENE} Husband "Well officer, I told that rapist not to touch her but he kept on doing it, so i couldn't be bothered. I sat down to watch the east enders on the tele and had a scone."


what's with the haters of guns? come on, it's a farce. the UK was forced to ban (even nice expensive collectables pieces has to be binned) as was australia in which home invasions continue to rise.

fact is, that liberal UN would-be dictators are engineering a resistance free world-wide government. the gun issue is one of many test cases in which the UN will use against the spirit of the US Constitution.



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Message 87/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  06:29 PM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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GT - nice.
For the rest of you's...peep this:

http://www.pcvp.org/pcvp/firearms/stats/motove3.shtml



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Message 88/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  06:31 PM   -   RE: guns

cheddar

Posts: 673

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hate guns?, just looking and seeing selling and whats the American way again,

guns kill people

I tried but a) I could lift one to inflict the damage, b) I tried pointing my finger and saying click - real 'no way'

guns kill people, people kill people, people kill other animals, people inflict pain, people kill the planet, poeple plan death and misery, people work in the restraunt, people die from hunger, live, die, enjoy, suffer, the wheel goes round, such a perfect circle - you can't tell from the side

custard pies never killed anyone



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Message 89/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  06:42 PM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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and one more....
California Stats from 1998
http://www.pcvp.org/pcvp/firearms/stats/24death98.shtml

Firearm deaths right up there with Motor Vehicle Deaths....looking for current stats as we speak.
But basically people, it's our 2nd ammendment right to bear arms. Period.
Doesn't mean I am happy about all the mindless deaths caused by them, but like I've said earlier, being responsible with your weapons makes a big difference. Of course there will always be those who slip by and get stupid and think that solving problems comes from owning a firearm. They also have it bassackwards.



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Message 90/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  06:46 PM   -   RE: guns

k

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so GT... even your miniscule right-wing brain must be able to find a reason why in the uk (where guns arent generaly owned & all handguns are banned) (or in europe across the board) we have hardly any shootings and instances of people being attacked in their homes is extremely low. No such thing as a driveby etc.

But thats cos of something else right? - what?... 'English reserve' perhaps?

and in the usa anyways, black kids get shot daily and no-one cares until some white middle class people or schoolkids get shot - then it's a huge deal all over the media.

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 91/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  07:02 PM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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Firearm Facts for 2002
Read these issues carefully....and then make your educated decision. Separate CRIME and FIREARMS and you might understand the right Americans have to bear arms. As long as our Militia bears, we have the same right...but a responsible right.
Enjoy~

CURRENT ISSUES
"Gun show" legislation would not only impose background checks on private firearm sales at gun shows. It would impose the same requirement on private sales occurring in people's homes. Now, "gun control" advocates are shamelessly trying to use the attacks of September 11 to advance their agenda, claiming that to prevent terrorism a background check should be required on all transfers of firearms, even between friends and family members.

The federal "assault weapon" law affects firearms never widely used in crime, according to a study conducted for Congress. (The Urban Institute, Impact Evaluation of the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act of 1994, 3/13/97) Among the nearly 200 makes and models of firearms restricted by this onerous law are semi-automatic Service Rifles like the Colt AR-15 and Springfield M1A, the center-fire rifles most commonly used for target shooting competitions. Because Congress has, since 1903, officially recognized that civilian Service Rifle ownership and proficiency is a component of national defense, the law threatens the concept of the citizen-soldier as well as the right of Americans to decide for themselves which firearms to have for target shooting, hunting and protection. The law is scheduled to expire in September 2004, but the anti-gun lobby has already demanded that it be made permanent and--proving its gun confiscation goals--that legal owners of these firearms never be allowed to sell them.

Registration and licensing are precursors to confiscation, as shown in England, Australia, Mexico and California. In the 1970s, the chairman of Handgun Control, Inc., called registration a necessary first step to confiscating all privately owned handguns. The Supreme Court has ruled that felons have Fifth Amendment immunity from registration, thus such measures impact only upon good citizens.

Lawsuits attempting to hold firearm manufacturers financially responsible for the acts of criminals run counter to long-standing principles of tort law, and have been prohibited by the legislatures of 27 states and nearly universally dismissed by the courts.

"One per month" limits on handgun purchases are arbitrary and could be increased to one per year or, as has happened in South Africa, one gun per person. Such limits treat a constitutionally protected right as a mere privilege to be rationed.

Mandatory storage laws, requiring gun owners to install gun locks on all firearms, have been shown to prevent firearms from being used for self-defense.

Raising the age for handgun ownership from 18 to 21 would infringe the right of young adults to defend themselves and their families. YOUNG ADULTS CAN DRIVE CARS, SERVE IN THE MILITARY, VOTE, BUY HOMES AND RAISE FAMILIES. Why shouldn't they be trusted to be responsible gun owners?

Waiting periods have never reduced crime. Historically, violent crime has been worse in states with waiting periods. "Gun control" advocates claim that a waiting period is necessary as a "cooling off period" for "crimes of passion." However, in 1993, after finding no evidence to support that theory, Congress rejected it and approved the National Instant Check.

"Gun control" advocates claim that a thorough records check cannot be accomplished without a delay. But most Instant Checks require only a few minutes, and they are the most comprehensive checks ever run on firearm purchasers, superior to any conducted under waiting periods.
SELF-DEFENSE & RIGHT-TO-CARRY
Survey research during the early 1990s by criminologist Gary Kleck found as many as 2.5 million protective uses of firearms each year in the U.S. "[T]he best available evidence indicates that guns were used about three to five times as often for defensive purposes as for criminal purposes," Kleck writes. Analyzing National Crime Victimization Survey data, he found "robbery and assault victims who used a gun to resist were less likely to be attacked or to suffer an injury than those who used any other methods of self-protection or those who did not resist at all." (Targeting Guns, Aldine de Gruyter, 1997)

Most protective firearm uses do not involve discharge of a firearm. In only 1% of protective uses are criminals wounded and in only 0.1% are criminals killed.

A Dept. of Justice survey found that 40% of felons chose not to commit at least some crimes for fear their victims were armed, and 34% admitted having been scared off or shot at by armed victims. (James D. Wright and Peter H. Rossi, Armed and Considered Dangerous, Aldine de Gruyter, 1986)

Thirty-three states now have Right-to-Carry (RTC) laws providing for law-abiding citizens to carry firearms for protection against criminals. Twenty-three states have adopted RTC laws in the last 15 years. Half of Americans, including 60% of handgun owners, live in RTC states.

Professor John R. Lott, Jr., and David B. Mustard, in the most comprehensive study to date of RTC laws' effectiveness concluded, "When state concealed-handgun laws went into effect in a county, murders fell about 8 percent, rapes fell by 5 percent, and aggravated assaults fell by 7 percent. . . . Will allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns save lives? The answer is yes, it will." (Lott, More Guns, Less Crime, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1998)

RTC states have lower violent crime rates on average: 22% lower total violent crime, 28% lower murder, 38% lower robbery, and 17% lower aggravated assault. The five states with the lowest violent crime rates are RTC states. (FBI) People who carry legally are by far more law-abiding than the rest of the public. In Florida, for example, only a fraction of 1% of carry licenses have been revoked because of gun-related crimes committed by license holders. (Florida Dept. of State)

FIREARM SAFETY
Because focus group research has shown that the public reacts unfavorably to the term "gun control," the anti-gun lobby has begun calling its legislative proposals by the euphemistic term "gun safety." (Handgun Control, Inc., now calls itself the "Brady Campaign.")

True gun safety depends on education and personal responsibility, not government regulation. NRA's 38,000 Certified Instructors and Coaches reach 700,000 Americans each year. NRA's award-winning Eddie EagleŽ GunSafe Program has been used by more than 20,000 schools, law enforcement agencies and civic groups to reach more than 15 million children since 1988. Accidental deaths with firearms have been decreasing for decades and are now at an all-time annual low among the U.S. population on the whole and among children in particular. Since 1930, the annual number of such accidents has decreased 78%, while the U.S. population has more than doubled and the number of privately owned guns has quintupled. Among children, fatal firearm accidents have decreased 78% since 1975. (National Center for Health Statistics and National Safety Council)

The per capita rate of accidental deaths with firearms is also at an all-time low, having decreased 91% since the all-time high in 1904. Firearm accidents account for less than 0.9% of accidental deaths and less than 0.04% of all deaths in the U.S. Among children, firearm accidents account for 2% of accidental deaths and 0.4% of all deaths. Most accidental deaths involve motor vehicles or are due to drowning, falls, fires, poisoning, medical mistakes, choking on ingested objects and environmental factors.

"GUN CONTROL" FAILURES
The federal Gun Control Act was imposed in 1968, yet violent crime increased until 1991. Washington, D.C., banned handguns in 1976 and by 1991 its homicide rate had tripled, while the U.S. rate had risen only 12%. Chicago, the only other city to ban handguns, has had more murders than any city for the last two years. Despite having some of the most restrictive gun laws, Maryland's robbery rate remains highest among the states, and Baltimore's murder rate has nearly overtaken D.C.'s.

States that delay firearm sales with waiting periods, licensing and purchase permits have historically had higher crime rates. For many years after California imposed a 15-day waiting period on firearm sales in 1975 (reduced to 10 days in 1997), its violent crime rate was 50% higher each year, on average, compared to the rest of the country. States that prohibit or severely restrict the right to carry have higher crime rates, on average.

A Library of Congress study concluded, "it is difficult to find a correlation between the existence of strict firearms regulations and a lower incidence of gun-related crimes." (Report for Congress: Firearms Regulations in Various Foreign Countries, May 1998)

A study for the Department of Justice concluded, "[A]dvocates of stricter weapons regulations sometimes assert that the United States is virtually the only advanced civilized nation in the world that exercises no controls over the civilian ownership, possession, or use of firearms. In fact, there are about 20,000 firearms laws of one sort or another already on the books." (James D. Wright, Peter H. Rossi and Kathleen Daly, Under the Gun, Aldine de Gruyter, 1983)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If interested, the rest of the Firearm Facts for 2002 are at: www.nraila.org/factsheets.asp?FormMode=Details&ID=82



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Message 92/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  07:06 PM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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oops, my bad... here's the proper link.

http://www.nraila.org/FactSheets.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=83



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Message 93/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  07:21 PM   -   RE: guns

k

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yeah well - lemme ask - did you ever work with guns?... they are frankly terrifying things misrepresented on TV.

and the constitution as far as I know says "the right to bear arms in order to maintain a militia" - which is nothing to do with a general 'right' to bear arms... Isn't that correct?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 94/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  07:30 PM   -   RE: guns

Ghost

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"A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

magnificently vague and oddly worded, isn't it?

it seems to tie it to a militia, and then it sort of doesn't at the same time....

hence, 230 years of argument.



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Message 95/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  07:45 PM     Edit: 21-Oct-02  |  07:52 PM   -   RE: guns

k

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and i would add that any drivel can make a statistic - for example you can say:

"GUN CONTROL" FAILURES The federal Gun Control Act was imposed in 1968, yet violent crime increased until 1991. Washington, D.C., banned handguns in 1976 and by 1991 its homicide rate had tripled, while the U.S. rate had risen only 12%. Chicago, the only other city to ban handguns, has had more murders than any city for the last two years. Despite having some of the most restrictive gun laws, Maryland's robbery rate remains highest among the states, and Baltimore's murder rate has nearly overtaken D.C.'s. "

but the reality is most likely that those bans were imposed because ALREADY it was heading for that and would have had that statistic anyway.

and you can say:

"Washington, D.C., banned handguns in 1976 and by 1991 its homicide rate had tripled"

thats 15 fucking years!! - what idiot could possibly apply that as a causaly related thing unless they were desperately clutching at straws to hold up a position??

Thats as rediculous as saying that Hitlers demise was the cause of the vietnam war, which tenuously you COULD link if you wanted to try to do it via this logic:

Hitler's demise allowed Russian socialism to survive which influenced china which denied the nationalists total power which in turn allowed Mao to mobilise the peasants against Chang kai-Shek under the banner of uniting to overthrow the japanese anexxing of south-east china, and in turn brought about the financial support of the imperialists by the UK, france & USA, which in turn led to the vietnamese situation with the French in her 'indo-china' colonies, and the eventual involvement of the USA after the frogs got totaly ass-wooped into oblivion by the Commies.

see?... any moron can make something fit a rediculous arguement.

But in essense, if you leave politicians/corporate 'new-speak' aside, it's simple - places where guns ARENT easily available have LESS gun crime - you cant argue the toss round that one... if there's no food you dont eat - simple.

it's just that gun companies own the US government just like other corporations. In fact everyone BUT the populace controls the US govt, guns in the USA is HUGE business yeilding billions of dollars.

equaly you'll see all sorts of psycho-babble around the subject of American child obesity (and adult obesity) & they come up with all sorts of quasi-social psychology rubbish about it - when the simple fact is, they are just lazy indolent greedy fat fucks who eat an excessive shit diet of packaged processed foods and almost everything they east has sugar in it.... that's ALL it is, not because as children they were 'denied bananas' or some such twaddle.

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 96/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  08:06 PM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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Have I ever "worked" with one? I've handled them my whole life. I am not terrified of them one little bit. Why? Because I respect them, I don't fear them. However, I'm not saying everyone should own one, because there are plenty of women, for example, out there who freak out and wouldn't use it properly...for them I suggest finding another means to protect themselves.

And of course, you can find support of your arguement, but where's yours?

We have the 'collective right' to protect ourselves, as does our militia. The point here is that the government is attempting to take our rights away, while only continuing to protect themselves and make us powerless. I will not be reduced to such madness.

To each their own. Respect your opinions, but just agree with them.



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Message 97/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  10:11 PM   -   RE: guns

influx

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hey luciferenda...youre in SoCal?

whats databass?



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Message 98/147                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  10:41 PM   -   RE: guns

xoxos

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all i'll say is you're in trouble when they release those directional speakers they were on about a few years ago. i'll have my soldering iron out then.. heh.. all your bullets just exploded in the chambers!



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Message 99/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  12:50 AM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

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For people so paranoid and cynical about the USA, you guys sure do have a lot of allegiance for the second amendment.

Right to bear arms, ok.

According to webster, arms are "Instruments or weapons of offense or defense."

Do you see the word "firearm" anywhere in there?

And even if you agree with the 2nd, why the need for more than one gun? Why the need for semiautomatics? Geez, people, is all that really necessary? Or does it just get you hard to see that big ol' rack of death, just waitin' to kill someone?

And what's so bad about background checks? If you fucked up with a gun before you shouldn't get another one. That's shit from childhood, yo. If you got nothing to hide, background checks shouldn't bother you.

"huff huff huff, I need a gun, I need a gun RIGHT FUCKING NOW OR MY RIGHTS ARE VIOLATED." Man, fuck that.

Get with the times people, there are lots of ways to defend yourself that are safer to keep in your house than a gun. And you don't even have to lock up your tazer, you can keep it on your belt wherever you go! Amazing.

Loving guns and being used to them does not make them necessary or right.

psylichon

ps. ..You REALLY want people walking around with concealed weapons all over the place? I'm sorry, but that's fucked up.



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Message 100/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  01:29 AM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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Influx - yes I'm in SoCal..OC to be exact..bout 30 miles south of LA.
Databass Sessions is a DnB/Jungle club in LA. Ever heard of RECON? My good friend runs that Jungle club out here in OC.

Recently the shooting that took place at Databass, some guy apparently just tried to break up a fight and got blasted in his face. Incredibly sad, alot of my friends in the Jungle scene were greatly affected. My friend who runs RECON had a big memorial last week at the club.

So ya, anyway..I'm here! woo-hoo



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Message 101/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  01:42 AM   -   RE: guns

mr. mysterious

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ha! gun kultcha proppa in effekt ya´ll!

i mean, you cant be a propper junglist without a get, rat-ta-ta-tat!

just taking the piss really. thats really sad. how the hell can you support guns?



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Message 102/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  02:03 AM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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sweetheart I never supported the shooting, and I AIN'T no Jungalist eder....

I support the RIGHT, the Right to protect myself, among other things. I don't support Violence. Big difference.
:o)



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Message 103/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  02:06 AM   -   RE: guns

Pongoid

Posts: 2003

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Cheddar....

WROOONNNNNGGG!!!!!!!!
People kill people.
A gun or a knife do not just get up off the table and just kill somebody in the fucking room for shits and giggles. They don't. Sorry, they don't. It just doesn't happen like that. The fact that you and others here can't accept the human weakness in the equation simply makes your arguments more moot.

Less gun deaths in England? Less deaths in England. It's a smaller country. How many stabbings? There's a LOT more violent and personal way of killing someone. Got a few of those I'll bet!!!! There aren't less murders per capita in England, just gun related, and then so what? It's nicer to be bludgeoned to death? More sporting? Oh sorry, poisoned, much classier.

The problem does not lie in the tools. It's in the people. That's the facts. GET OVER IT!!!

You cannot argue it with figures or statistics, or neo-spiritual hypothetical bullshit. People are the problem. So take your anti-gun fear/anger displacement bullshit and and put it to use making better music. WHAT THE FUCK!?!??!


Ape



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Message 104/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  02:09 AM   -   RE: guns

mr. mysterious

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luciferenda, i wasnt talking about you in the first place.



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Message 105/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  02:17 AM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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otay, then ma bad.



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Message 106/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  02:44 AM   -   RE: guns

GT

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minuscule? -i'm sure you can do better, mmkay?

Yes, it seems English born people have more class and common courtesy, which usually drives a spirit of docility (knife stabbing aside). So much though for those imported types.

Notwithstanding firearms, Here's your British justice with concern to home invasion.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-
1067515,00.html

aye england, once might and superciliously bold, she has reduced herself to banal liberality only superceded by the Continent in which it wishes to align itself.



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Message 107/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  02:49 AM   -   RE: guns

marianimal

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Psylichon, you equate idealism with not killing. Sure, that's one form of idealism, but there are other kinds. I can think of several native American tribes, the Hopi come to mind first, who have what I would definitely call an idealistic world view and hopes that humanity will evolve spiritually. And in these cultures, killing is understood as part of life, and treated as something to be done when necessary, with respect. Maybe humanity will evolve to a state where we no longer need to sustain our lives by taking other lives, but I don't see how at this point, not in these bodies. Even spinach and rice and beans are alive in the ground when they're growing, and we take that life by eating it. So it's just a matter of where you draw the line. I personally believe a person needs to pay attention and be responsible, make the right choice at the right time. For me it's not a matter of "it says here thou shalt not kill", it's a matter of, here is my life now, decide what I am going to do each moment and handle the consequences. I imagine that if I ever decide I need a gun and my owning one is no longer protected by the US constitution, I'll be an outlaw then; for me it's not about loyalty to the constitution anyway. It's about having the ability to defend myself or someone else, and if someone doesn't want to see me exercising that ability, then they shouldn't attack me. :-)



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Message 108/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  03:04 AM   -   RE: guns

influx

Posts: 7627

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man fuckin Marianimal just comes along and irons the whole damn thing out. you go girl!

hey luciferenda (I keep wanting to call you referendum!!!!)

Im in OC too...dunno what RECON is but if its the DnB night in Fullerton where all the little kiddies come and act all hard and gangster like..>BLECH! PTOOEY!

but...you dig breaks, too? ever get up to boombox?



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Message 109/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  03:36 AM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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no shit?! trip out

ya, RECON is the one in Fullerton. I don't go alot, but when I do, it's only cuz my friend runs it. Yes I LOVE me some breaks. Haven't made it up to Boombox yet, but I get the mails for it all the time. On the SocalBreaks list.

Agree with influx...mari straight laid it out nicely. Touche'



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Message 110/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  04:05 AM   -   RE: guns

influx

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do you post there? (SoCal Breaks?)...if so..whats your handle there?

we should meet up some time!



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Message 111/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  04:54 AM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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No I don't post there. I can barely keep up with the ones I do post on.

Meetup sounds kewl.



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Message 112/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  05:55 AM   -   RE: guns

GT

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whatcha, fluxie is a mac daddy ;)



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Message 113/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  06:04 AM   -   RE: guns

psylichon

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Marianimal - Well said and very true. I respect the ancient serpent and realize that life cannot exist without death. But killing for food and killing for greed/anger/stupidity are very different animals.

We all say we hope the best for humanity, while clutching to our fear of others, fear of our own mortality, fear of the unknown, fear of the government, fear of not "making it", etc. etc. etc. What kind of example is that? Do you want everyone to live in those fears constantly? Can we really go anywhere holding on to that kind of baggage?

It's an overused statement and undeniably corny, but changing the world starts with you. And "you" start with your priorities. If your priority is personal survival, then own your damn guns. If your priority is setting an example, even if only for a few people, and contributing constructively to society, then you should not own a gun. That means accepting the fact that you could get mowed down at any moment by someone who's priorities are themselves. That's life, and I accept that. I really feel I'm at peace with my own mortality, at any time and for any reason. Say my head is in the clouds if you wish, but this is something I've really thought long and hard about.

Pongoid, I don't take humans out of the equation. I'm painfully aware that humans are the problem. I just don't see the point of exasperating our violent natures with tools that promote nothing but death. It's like thowing bloody chunks of flesh into a shark feeding frenzy. You know it's only going to cause more trouble.

And another thing, Ape. I respect your opinion above many on this board, and I feel your argument is very intelligent and well thought out. If nothing else, I see where you're coming from. But I'm not kicking down your door and taking your gun so back off and relax a bit. It's called debate. Look it up. I find plenty of time to make music in between my debates.

I like debating. 'Nuff said.

psylichon



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Message 114/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  06:16 AM   -   RE: guns

influx

Posts: 7627

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"whatcha, fluxie is a mac daddy ;)"
uh...is this person a female? I musta missed that

either way, no worries. I dont hit on dudes, and Im not lookin for a girl either 



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Message 115/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  09:35 AM   -   RE: guns

Maarten

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Lemme squeeze the following in here and let you carry on... Pongoid, I really would like to add to your point : yes, people kill people but if guns were not laying round on every corner it would be a tad more difficult to and many incidents would not go further than a good old beating. The plain fact is that one less tool is one less option in killing which will change the equation, no matter what.
BTW, I've been attacked by a cook on coke once (no joke) and am positive that running wouldn't have helped if he had held a gun instead of a 15" blade.



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Message 116/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  09:47 AM   -   RE: guns

bedwyr

Posts: 2890

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"denied bananas"  



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Message 117/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  09:58 AM   -   RE: guns

cheddar

Posts: 673

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Morning!

"WROOONNNNNGGG!!!!!!!! People kill people.",

People decide to spend $Bn developing weapons, the accountants step in and value demands a war.

I don't care how poeple occupy their time but when the bullet leaves the barrel - it stops being some elses problem.

OR I don't care how poeple occupy their time but denying that people use what is at hand and if they have a gun they will probably use it

OR I don't care how poeple occupy their time but ranting when their a perfectly good and clear question from Zazza asking about how so much relationship between guns and killing (fu/*n no brainer - lets get a consultant in) "ask the question"

OR I don't care how many are being eroded by nuclear materials being burned in coal fired power stations

nug, anyway ENOUGH

I tell a story of a friendship and being together and death.

So you move around a head full of tolerance and love and just enough pre-sence not to end cut up in the back seat of a gansters motor or buried between serial killers cellars - so far.

You meet people when you are like this. Some of them you can rock all night with but never see again, some you do and wish you hadn't and some you do years later and it's like you's never been away.

My friend Mel died few weeks back and I found out about it yesterday. Now in the middle of the room full of people doing their things and thinking their thoughts I stand still for the slo mo camera to say - do you need to be nearby the thing you look at? can the back of the dolphin trace the movement of rolling people and do you need to do the thing to get the memory of done? It's serious. I mean where do we live.

This isn't some smoochy "I'll always remember you" line but a fair question about speaking to friends who would enjoy a gig and you think of them and they are not there, maybee you even say something to go with the memory of them enjoying it also. I get alot of that living abroad. I mean we could talk about when you do eventually meet that person do you treat them as if they heard the thing you said? I feel that it is yes.

Then there is the rolling people feeling i heard first through The Verve. I can associate with this. I do believe in the moment - in a world of relativity it's all we have - and being a prettry free moving fella - when I have the time - I love the lifting in and out of times, the juxtapositioning and act of doing, not thinking about it times come to me - pretty much always. I am sure you guys get it - perhaps also live for it. Remembers quality moments, she, turning like a marionette dressing herself in our rapture, he, kid failed trying puking in the corner, the curve of leaving yourself in an ecstacy and togetherness in the dry times. The same lights of people there, the timlessness of being there and the inevitablity of moving on (though for arguments sake - you never actualy moved anywhere - you were always going). And these people always going, going nowhere - how do they come together? do they ever leave each other. Are we these people, do they bring the sensation with them.

I had this night once where i am with a top notch chum (justin from Oz) we are sitting apart in a room full of strangers talking here and there, and i remember turning to him as he was turing to me and we look at each other smiling like social animals and i feel that we are dingy captains, with craft, sailing time. You see we turned to look at each other at the same time.

Feel free to skip forward from the blubbering

Then there is the idea that if you can imagine it well enough - you don't need to do it. I wont give you the story but it would have taken such a small outragous movement to do this story making thing. I knew it, I saw it - even the other players I would have needed to make it happen were all in position and stayed there through the movement, BUT I DIDN'T DO IT. This is no remorse thing - it is a demonstration of making a virtual reality and having made it I am free to rely upon it, like i could have amused you with the full version. So imagining a reality from perception becomes just from the telling.

See if you don't need to be near the physicality of the thing to interact with the thing, and if your virtual experiences are communal and your imagination lets you be free from supporting memory with common or garden fact then my friend we are free from all things. Free to dwell and fly, live whole lives from our abstracted moments, explore the eyes picture through the infinite perception and share thoughts to live in others and never die.

Here's to crazy ass livers who had the the stopping done for them, live forever.

peace

A



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Message 118/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  10:31 AM     Edit: 22-Oct-02  |  10:32 AM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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Pongoid: 'Less gun deaths in England? Less deaths in England. It's a smaller country'

The rate of murders per 100,000 population in england/wales is about 1.4 - In the US it's 5.7. (3.7 of which are murders involving firearms).

The rate is higher in Northern Ireland (6.1) presumably because they were until recently in the middle of a civil war, although its not much higher than the US.

Scotland comes in at 2.24 and Southern Ireland (Eire) at 0.03!

Here's list of all the countries that beat out the US in the murder per capita stakes:

South Africa

Colombia

Estonia

Brazil

Mexico

Philippines

Taiwan

N. Ireland



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Message 119/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  11:33 AM   -   RE: guns

Maarten

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There ya go...



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Message 120/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  11:52 AM   -   RE: guns

GT

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"... Southern Ireland (Eire) at 0.03!"

that's because they have serve *proper* guiness -cold and headless.



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Message 121/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  01:48 PM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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i think it's cos you have trek thru cold damp bogland for hours to find someone to shoot..



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Message 122/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  01:52 PM   -   RE: guns

cheddar

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wonder how much US (sponsored) munitions are with those countries "that beat out the US in the murder per capita stakes"



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Message 123/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  02:41 PM   -   RE: guns

99devils

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I think there's very much a cultural aspect you guys are missing out on. In the States, a lot of murders come out of the "gangsta" culture. Take Buffalo, my city. There's a lot of murders in Buffalo, for our population size. Hell, there's just plain a lot of murders here. But those murders are generally confined to about 3 neighborhoods (in a city and suburban area of about 1 million people). Rarely do you hear about shootings in any other areas.

This is a conditioned response. We're talking about people who've grown up around the wrong examples, where they've seen this kind of thing their whole lives, and simply don't know any better.

Secondly, the point about gun laws only restricting law-abiding citizens from owning guns shouldn't be dismissed so easily. Most murders here are committed with illegal or unregistered guns.

I don't own a gun. My family wouldn't have them in the house when I was growing up, and I live in a very safe area of Buffalo (no murders here in Amherst - it's the safest town in the USA statistically). But if I was going to be living in Harlem, or Watts, you can bet your ass I'd be packing!



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Message 124/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  04:37 PM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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'Most murders here are committed with illegal or unregistered guns. '

which are mostly stolen from law-abiding citizens.



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Message 125/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  06:33 PM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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hey mac daddy...kick me yo email addy...



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Message 126/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  06:43 PM   -   RE: guns

marianimal

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Why do my priorities have to be either/or? You're making things black and white when they're not. Yes, I prefer to survive until I feel I've accomplished my purposes here on earth, one of which I do think is setting an example. I'm considered a pretty generous and honest person, which is at least the start of an example I'd like to set. I'm also responsible, and that means that if I did own a gun, which I don't at this time, I would own it responsibly and you wouldn't see me out acting like an idiot with it. If I needed to defend myself with my bare hands or whatever, I would do that too. At the same time, I'm aware that I won't live forever, and at some moment may decide NOT to defend myself, or I may realize I'm beat if it comes to that. Just cos I might want to have a gun doesn't mean I'm going to use it on every possible occasion. Now your equation seems to be, if you have a gun you can't be for higher consciousness, and that's just bullshit.

Let me digress a moment and try to make this clearer for Psylichon. You're interested in compassion, I imagine. Maybe it's really non-violence you're about, but I'm going to talk about compassion because I think that's prolly the highest value there is. If someone brutally attacks me, I personally don't think it's necessarily compassionate to just let that happen and let that person continue being a brutal attacker. The type of compassion I'm aware of is being honest with people, and if they're doing something fucked up I am not going to smooth things over for them and make it easier to continue to be that way. This is my decision, in the moment, based on whatever happens. It doesn't necessarily mean I'll try to kill the person but fer damn sure I'm going to obstruct the progress of their fucked-up behavior. And yes, I do believe that is compassion and caring for others. I'm also caring for the next person that the aggresive person might consider attacking.

The point is, if more people in general would use their goddam sensibilities, we wouldn't be so violent and cruel, we would find better ways to vent or transform our aggression, and whether or not anyone has weapons wouldn't really be an issue. And I'll point out just one more time: making guns illegal would NOT make them DISAPPEAR, so all those arguments that go "this gun-related incident would never have happened if guns were illegal" really don't make sense. The guns in many of those situations are illegal anyway.

Hehe, have fun in SoCal, Luciferanda & Influx. :-)



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Message 127/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  06:54 PM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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mari..nicely done. very much agree.



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Message 128/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  07:54 PM   -   RE: guns

influx

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oh QUIT!
nflux1@aol.com

you do know that Uberzone is playing tomorrow at boombox?



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Message 129/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  08:03 PM   -   RE: guns

marianimal

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Well it does sound like some cool stuff going on there. Have to come down sometime.



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Message 130/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  08:38 PM   -   RE: guns

Luciferenda

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Got it. Ya, I know, but I got midterms this week and I'm SWAMPED with that right now. So I can't make it tomorrow.

Mari..please do. :o)



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Message 131/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  08:49 PM   -   RE: guns

JX3P0

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a lil late on my response but no black mcs
spouting off about gats and such isn't cool
either.But a white guy who never shot anyone
doing it is less cool.Not that shooting people
is cool but sometimes you have no
choice.Either way I won't be rapping my
story.that's for sure.

H



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Message 132/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  09:11 PM   -   RE: guns

99devils

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Zazza:

'Most murders here are committed with illegal or unregistered guns. '

which are mostly stolen from law-abiding citizens.

----------------

You say this as if they won't find another way to get the guns?



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Message 133/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  09:39 PM   -   RE: guns

xoxos

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to set the record straight, i'm not an armed raving libertarian. there was an interesting (in respect to this) thread a few months ago where i clearly stated that i use an invisible, mystic force combined with my astaggeringly superior mental ability for defensee.



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Message 134/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  09:45 PM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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99devil.. 'You say this as if they won't find another way to get the guns?'

of course they will.. its not as if there's a shortage is there?

I was just pointing out where the illegal guns come from.. legal ones...

and hey, if you want to protect your house, get a nice big doggy...

 



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Message 135/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  09:55 PM   -   RE: guns

xoxos

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if you tell anyone to get another noisy fucking dog as a 'security measure' i'm going to bite your ankle then i'm going to take your hairy wagging ass out with a apir of numchuxx ahso!

(really, i keep saying this.. i got the BEST shot to take.. need film.. neighbor's dog house=sheets of 4'x8' chipboard, rained on so top boar dis sagging all way to ground-as chipboard tends to do eh- he got a NEW sheet of chipboard and set it by the side to replace it  



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Message 136/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  09:59 PM   -   RE: guns

k

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simple - a nice bit of beef laced with 'Cymag' (cyanide powder) over the fence  

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 137/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  10:49 PM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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For the dog owner?



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Message 138/147                 Date: 22-Oct-02  @  11:52 PM   -   RE: guns

pict

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Where do you get cyanide powder from K?What legitimate purpose does cyanide powder have?All I can say is that as far as alarm systems go a couple of geese is the best system if someone even gets close to our house our geese start squawking like crazy plus they attack strangers if I'm not around.The sound of the geese squawking followed by dogs barking from inside the house is a great deterrent in my experience I keep a hurley by the front and back doors just in case.In the past people used to let the sow wander freely around their farm and if a stranger up to no good came around the sow would attack them and an angry pig is a force to be reckoned with let me assure you that is a case where you would need a gun.



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Message 139/147                 Date: 23-Oct-02  @  12:02 AM   -   RE: guns

influx

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Yeah marianne! it would be really cool to meet you!



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Message 140/147                 Date: 23-Oct-02  @  02:34 PM   -   RE: guns

99devils

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OK Zazza, I'll drop you off in the middle of South Central and see how long it takes you to change your mind about citizens being allowed to legally carry  



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Message 141/147                 Date: 23-Oct-02  @  03:03 PM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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99devils: 'OK Zazza, I'll drop you off in the middle of South Central and see how long it takes you to change your mind about citizens being allowed to legally carry'

Why? Will it reduce my chances of dying if I pack a gun?



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Message 142/147                 Date: 23-Oct-02  @  06:57 PM   -   RE: guns

99devils

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It just might...

-Craig



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Message 143/147                 Date: 23-Oct-02  @  07:00 PM   -   RE: guns

99devils

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Not to mention how often you Europeans observe that our government is getting out of control. How are we supposed to have a revolution if they take our guns away? (hint hint)

-Craig



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Message 144/147                 Date: 23-Oct-02  @  09:00 PM   -   RE: guns

xoxos

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old expression here,

g.t.b.h.b. eh!



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Message 145/147                 Date: 27-Oct-02  @  04:41 PM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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which means?



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Message 146/147                 Date: 27-Oct-02  @  07:31 PM   -   RE: guns

xoxos

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ask me when everyone's forgotten what they were talking about.



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Message 147/147                 Date: 27-Oct-02  @  10:27 PM   -   RE: guns

Zazza

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roger!



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