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Original Message                 Date: 18-Oct-02  @  09:40 PM   -   why war

Ghost

Posts: 290

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I see a lot of posts about America and Iraq, and sometimes I find what some of you folks think a bit hard to swallow....


It seems like a lot of you think that America is threatening war simply for oil, so that a few men can obtain more power and money.... Do you really think that? If you do, I think you are misguided. I think that money and power MIGHT be the end result of a war, but that's an dubious proposition at best, and I don't think they are the USA's prime motivating factors for starting one.....


Bush clearly laid out the case that Saddam is a UNIQUE threat for reasons x, y and z... and, after a debate, our Congress voted to go along, and created a resolution authorizing war. So, this isn't "Bush's war" and we're not a "dictatorship". This is a healthy democracy where everyone (including Bush) votes, and are bound by the results according to the rule of law...


To say that we start wars for money and power is kind of selling short what really moves our leaders to action... These guys are seriously concerned about SECURITY, and oil is a part of that.... Like it or not, a steady flow of oil happens to be vital for many nations' national security. So, peace in the region is in the world's best interest. But saying it's just about oil is like pointing at Influx and saying he's only doing music for the money and the chicks... it sells short what he's really about, and trivializes the issue. Hey, these guys all HAVE money AND immense power.... And we all know that wars are very very costly, both in human and economic terms....


So, in my view, these men sit in fear of the judgement of history, because they truly fear what Saddam will do if given a chance......


More people should be GLAD Saddam is going down, but it seems like there's a lot of hand-wringing... the guy is a menace, and he's just going to cause more problems if he's left alone. He's also shooting at us almost every day for fuck's sake. So, what the fuck? Is the world supposed to do nothing? So, what would you do?


There's no denying it will be a tremendous benefit to the West to have a friendly Iraqi regime, and it will be also pretty good for the Iraqi people, too (the ones that survive the war, anyway).... but to say that we threaten all this killing and upheaval because of the greed and power hunger of a few men is too simple an argument...


Before you ask, I don't trust the govt. and I'm not supportive of the USA going to war alone. But I do think the threat is real. The guy has got to go, and it's up to the world to find a way to do it....



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Message 31/41                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  02:54 AM   -   RE: why war

JX3P0

Posts: 28

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To answer Ape's question I would definitely
prefer the AK-47 over the M16 because the AK
is much less prone to jamming due to it's
more liberal assembly tolerences.Not to
mention the AK doesn't require the constant
oiling and cleaning a M16 does.But if I really
had a choice I would want the Krinkov variant
of the AK-74.More compact w/ a tighter
twist.The AK is so much simpler(quicker) to
field strip.A good AK will keep you alive longer
and that's the point.Not to mention you can let
them rust shut,beat the bolt open w/ a steel
toe and rock n roll.With an M16 you'll be on the
horn to the quartermaster.

H - AK TECH?



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Message 32/41                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  05:18 AM   -   RE: why war

influx

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"all right - truth be told - I'm AFRAID to believe that it's all a big chess game for the wealthy and powerful... the thought of that being true fills me with horror... I just can't face it."

ghost..when youre readin Z and Dissent and stuff like that...doesnt that SEEM how it is? I mean..thats the world that the left portrays...and sometimes it really does look to be so

I dont want to believe it either. the horror of such a truth would be maddening!



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Message 33/41                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  05:44 AM   -   RE: why war

JX3P0

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look it's like this.We are here now.There's
nothing we can change about that w/o being
proactive.Audio/Video active is a start.Yes it's
a chess game but remember there are more
pawns on the board than any other piece.Sure
their moves are more polished and outwardly
destructive but we can overcome all the
divisions and form one hell of a threat to the
end game.It's not the game as much as the
final outcome that dictates the pace.They have
rules on paper but the only thing that matters
is the outcome.Fuck the rules and find the
shadows.The stealth is the answer.They have
doctrine and we have morphing abilities
beyond their capabilities if we have the spirit
and determination to wreak havoc.Youth+
Technology overcomes the old ways.Life is
about choice.you can choose to sit back and
watch the show or you can become the
programming director.seen.

H- It's all a game and those who embrace that
will beat out the sheep



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Message 34/41                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  10:24 AM   -   RE: why war

k

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lets add some of that stuff for posterity:

Listening to the rhetoric of Bush, Blair, "Rambo" Rumsfeld,
and Cheney this September as they try to ignite a popular
zest for war against Iraq (Threat of war, September 6), I
am reminded of the tone and language used by an earlier
leader hard at work stoking up a needless
[My note: ``needless'' is the wrong adjective. Invading Iraq
will serve the ``needs'' of the imperialists very well]
international crisis - Adolf Hitler in September 1938.

"I know quite well," he ranted at the Nuremberg rally, "that
through forbearance one will never reconcile so
irreconcilable an enemy as are the Czechs; they will only be provoked
to further presumption ... Herr Benes plays his tactical
game; he makes speeches, he wishes to negotiate ...
and to make little appeasement presents. But
in the long run that is not good enough!"

Change Czechs and Benes to Saddam Hussein and the
speech could have been drafted in Washington today.
Needless to say, President Benes's Czechoslovakia in
1938 posed no threat to Nazi Germany and was in any
case militarily outclassed - just as the militarily even more
outclassed Iraqis today in no way threaten the US or the
UK.

It is perfectly obvious why Washington and London wish
to delay publication of "the dossier" on Iraqi armaments
until the last possible moment - the "evidence" will simply
consist of yet more assertions and speculations of the
kind western public opinion has already found completely
unconvincing.

Meanwhile, the "democracy" about which Bush keeps prating
operates in a peculiar way: Bush and Blair are preparing
war, even though it is plain that most of their two peoples are
dead against it. This is no doubt why Blair will not recall
parliament. No debate prior to a decision. Rely
instead on the crown prerogative inherited by British prime
ministers from the absolute monarchy of the past.



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Message 35/41                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  10:28 AM   -   RE: why war

k

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CASI Quiz: Nazi or Bush-Blair -- Who said what when?

[I'm still working on it. e.g. I'm looking for a Nazi quotation saying
that it was much better for the Czech or Polish people to be invaded than
suffer under their current government.]

Guess who said this, a German Nazi sometime between 1930 and 1945
or a US/UK politician sometime from 2000 onwards:

1) There's no telling how many wars it will take to
secure freedom in the homeland

2) We must wage a total war on terrorism

3) So total war is the demand of the hour.

4) We would not deserve to lead this nation if we tolerated to any degree
whatsoever any threat to the homeland.

5) Peace through victory!

6) We are fighting for our lives. If we lose it will mean the
end of our nation and our history. This war is a defensive
war. It was forced on us by our enemies.

7a) Often [the leadership] cannot reveal the
reasons for its actions without giving valuable
information to the enemy.

7b) Much of the evidence we have is intelligence
and highly sensitive. It is not possible without compromising
people or security to release precise details.

8) We wage a war to save civilization, itself. We did not seek it,
but we must fight it -- and we will prevail.

9) We feel no hatred against the Czech/Afghan people.

10) We would have nothing against Czecho-Slovakia/Iraq if, first, it had not
suppressed Germans/Kurds, and, second, if it was not intended as the
instrument of a future attack on Germany/America.
Upon us falls the task of preventing such an attack at all costs.

11) This is a battle with only one outcome: our victory not theirs.

Answers:

1) George Bush Speech 5th Aug 2002

2) Ken Adelman Wednesday, February 13, 2002; Page A27 Washington Post (Adelman was assistant to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld from 1975
to 1977, and arms control director -- seriously: ``arms control''! -- under President Ronald Reagan.)

3) Joseph Goebbel's ``total war'' speech 18 February 1943

4) Joseph Goebbel's speech 5 June 1943

5) Joseph Goebbel's speech 24 December 1941

6) J. Goebbel's article 26 September 1943

7a) ibid

7b) Tony Blair speech to Parliament, 4th October 2001.

8) George W Bush speech 01 Nov 2001

9) Adolf Hitler speech April 3rd 1939

10) ibid

11) Tony Blair speech Labour Party conference, Brighton 2001

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 36/41                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  03:08 PM   -   RE: why war

Zazza

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Do you think think they all have the same 'convincing your population that invasion is good' handbook?



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Message 37/41                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  03:08 PM   -   RE: why war

cheddar

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Practical approaches:
"I think that if you look at the major efforts and choose 1 and work against that then the whole thing could collapse.

Ask a question, does the answer answer the question, if not - ask the question."



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Message 38/41                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  04:50 PM   -   RE: why war

Ghost

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right on influx... sometimes it really does look to be all of that, and it makes me want to fight....

of course, as a life-long paranoid, this could spell my doom.

MWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

*bang*! *flop*.



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Message 39/41                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  05:06 PM   -   RE: why war

JX3P0

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Everybody "wants" to fight.but nobody
will.They're too busy shopping.That's the
biggest problem w/ the west we don't have
what it takes anymore.And that's just
sad.We're a bunch of scared pussies chillin at
home with our microwave dinners and
CNN.One day maybe,One day.In the mean
time all hail Bushka.Fighting means taking
casualties and not even our "army" can
stomach that.

H- I hear a perot like sucking sound of our
freedom going down the toilet.



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Message 40/41                 Date: 21-Oct-02  @  09:24 PM   -   RE: why war

Zazza

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I'm sure they can get a shitload of poor young males to join up and sacrifice themselves..



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