Original Message 1/35                 Date: 13-Apr-05  @  11:30 AM   -   anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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Hi all,

after spending inordinate amounts of time trying to balance my mixes ive come to the conclusion i have a mointoring problem, i have very little room to move things about (although im moving house so that will change)- what im finding is that im mixing and balancing stuff, getting a good approximation but when i try the tune out on say my headphones it sounds unbalanced.....badly...was wondering if anyone with particularly good eq ears could tell me what they think is wrong with say a couple of short examples, that way when i go about setting my new space up i can make sure im not doing anything that would just compound the issue

any takers?

greg

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Message 2/35                 Date: 13-Apr-05  @  01:24 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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ive put two examples up at my soundclick

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/dubmunkeymusic.htm
and will upload more examples this week...when i play my stuff back to back i notice the difference in sound to normal mixes so am think some monitoring issue is causing thing to be mixed unbalanced...

greg

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Message 3/35                 Date: 13-Apr-05  @  03:05 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

milan

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hmm... are your monitors forward sounding? cause the mixes sound a bit dull, eg. no highs. plus i'd say the bass drum is mixed too loud without being punchy and well defined. but on the whole i wouldnt say the mixes sound unbalanced because nothing seems to get lost in the mix. its more the case of the missing frequencies imo.

what are your monitors? do you mix loud or quiet? how are they lacking in your oppinion? give us more details please  

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Message 4/35                 Date: 13-Apr-05  @  03:30 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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Cheers Milan,

alaesis montior 1s mk2...

one is on the side of my kitchenette (i live in a v small bedsit) and the right side is on my computer desk- so there is room under and around the right side but not the left-, very little space from the back of the speakers to the thick walls behind them....

i generally monitor at listening level and then go up and down to make sure nothing gets too load or quiet at those volumes....i try and match my kick levels to other house tracks and build around that- means the kick often peaks at 0db (i use 0db as the ref and will often turn the master down when recording so it doesn't clip) and the rest is in relation to the kick...

what i feel im lacking is high-mid detail....it often sounds quite harsh so i reduce or eq or compress but then find im loosing definition....i try and isolate any sound i feel is causing offence and its usually always in the high-mid range...i always feel the bass is not defined enough deep but doesn't hold up on smaller speakers/andor the bass drum suffers- and as ive said im not convinced my high-mids are represented properly-

i use soley hardware btw and record via a mia-midi into soundforge as a 24-bit wav- high pass the rumble out and then converted to mp3...

i have consumed an inordinate amount of info on eqing, compression, balancing, monitoring etc yet my stuff still doesn't hold up to pc based tunes which always have a very well defined top end yet nice and balanced bass....its bad cos im trying to get some tunes out there but always feel let down by my cheap sounding mixes....

greg

kit:
alesis m1 mk2
mpc2kxl
art tube eq
dbx 266xl comp
spirit fx8 mixer
lxp1
vf1
various synths

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Message 5/35                 Date: 13-Apr-05  @  04:26 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

k

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I cant play the tracks at Soundclick, I get an error in media player - cant find the stream or something

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 6/35                 Date: 13-Apr-05  @  05:29 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

milan

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aha... so you're basicaly mixing on a mixer with two fixed frequency shelves and one swept eq, which you're often using to cut hi-mids, leaving you with not much else to work with... well no wonder you cant get much detail out of the mixes then, compared to x bands of fully parametric eq you could have in a sw based system (and compression too!). i understand that recording all the tracks to the pc for mixing might be tedious (if your pc is even up to the task), but it'd probably be more than worth it if you want good results.

"i always feel the bass is not defined enough deep but doesn't hold up on smaller speakers/andor the bass drum suffers"- well, that too would benefit from a better eq- with few bands of parametric you could boost the bit which you need without making it boomy or rumbling, plus you could cut out the bits that mess with the bassdrum. plus you could add elswhere to improve 'presence' for listening on small speakers etc etc...

any particular reason why you dont wanna use a pc for mixing?

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Message 7/35                 Date: 14-Apr-05  @  04:51 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

psylichon

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Yeah, I also think you're hurting in the EQ dept. most.

You're also basing your mixes around the "kick level" of fully mastered CD's, which is setting unrealistic standards for yourself. Try bringing the CD in on some faders where you can attenuate it (at least 6 dB, possibly even 10 or more knowing how shit gets mastered these days) before you try to match it. Even that won't be a truly fair comparison. There's a lot you need to read up on RMS vs. peak levels and the mastering process in general. When you reference commercial CD's while mixing, try to match overall balance and tone rather than level. That's for mastering.

Doing what you've been doing, I bet you're overloading your mixer all to heck trying to compete. How hot are your channels/mix bus levels on an average mix?

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Message 8/35                 Date: 14-Apr-05  @  09:00 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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cheers

i thought that may be the problem- im gonna stop trying to a/b to cd's as as you say its not a fair comparison....

i don't have a powerful enough pc to record onto or anything other than sound forge and some plugs to use which isn't mulitrackable...i dont mind using the pc as a posh tape recorder but ive never multitracked on a pc and worry about sync issues when trying to put all the tracks back together....

what im more up for is recording any locked loops and then replaying them outta my mpc but obviously i cant eq them

i guess my main issue is that loads of classic tunes have been recorded with just samplers, synths and stuff outside from a pc and sound great- i know hardware is going outta fashion in todays sound but i much prefer using it and really just wanna be able t0o record my comps as one at the end...

the ONLY way ive been able to balance stuff is through multiband comp and that to me is not the way to go as im not looking to master it and using mulitband often locks tones down irreversably...

i had a little more luck with the bass last night splitting it into two channels- one for low low and one for lowmid- got better.....

thanks for the advice i think im gonna try a couple of different things (ie mix with bd down by 1db etc), record the results and play accross as many systems as i can find to try and reach a balance

ta

greg

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Message 9/35                 Date: 14-Apr-05  @  09:05 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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also what would you consider the best stereo para is for say under £300??? ive used behringer before i didnt really like them- i like what my art tube eq does but it has fixed q, fixed shelves and is mono....suggestions?

greg

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Message 10/35                 Date: 14-Apr-05  @  05:39 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

milan

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"i guess my main issue is that loads of classic tunes have been recorded with just samplers, synths and stuff outside from a pc and sound great"

yeah, but they possibly had a better mixer, and possibly they were eq-ing stuff before bouncing it back to the sampler... lotsa old mixers with two swept bands to be had for not too much money btw (soundtrax, soundcraft, mackie maybe, a&h(?))

"thanks for the advice i think im gonna try a couple of different things (ie mix with bd down by 1db etc), record the results and play accross as many systems as i can find to try and reach a balance"

but your balance is not bad i think, its more about the detail etc like we said.

"also what would you consider the best stereo para is for say under £300??? ive used behringer before i didnt really like them"

yeah, they're kinda useless  . dunno... maybe a used joey meek, focusrite, tl-audio, tc electronics or something along those lines?

or if you decided to get a multitracker and track to pc, you could always slave the MPC to it via MTC so sync wouldnt really be an issue any more.

or if you're hardcore, you could get a better analogue mixer?  

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Message 11/35                 Date: 15-Apr-05  @  03:59 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

psylichon

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Yeah the problem with mixing out of the box, though it can certainly sound better, is just that it's so dang expensive. All those classic albums that you refer to were mixed through a ton of outboard gear, likely, and the fact is that good outboard isn't cheap. I can't even begin to recommend a parametric EQ that I would want to use that would cost less than $300.

Plugins offer greater quality for the buck, generally, and offer you unlimited instances (given the enough CPU horsepower). I would say $1000 will get you a decent enough computer for 32+ tracks, a quality 2x2 audio interface, cheap multitracking DAW software (Tracktion?), and a smattering of quality plugins that will get you much further than a similar investment in outboard. And as Milan said, when you're working with sequencers and MIDI, sync is a non-issue.

I applaud your efforts to "keep it real" on the analog tip, but fact is that it's really a big investment if you want it to sound as good as you're expecting it to. Software is certainly a change of workflow, but it's the most economical way to remain competitive today, sonically, imho.

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Message 12/35                 Date: 15-Apr-05  @  08:49 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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cool stuff, its not that im anal and have to keep it outside of the pc its just with the cash already spent another grand on a decent pc is just soul destroying...

what i do at the mo when need to eq a track is use the ART or my filter but it oftens means sampling back into the pc and then putting back in the mpc- not a problem really, i know my pc will not handle any multitracking at the mo as it practically falls over using something like the two plugs in a row-

a compromise is needed if you think the balance is ok ill stop stressing about that and focus on getting the mid and top end right- are they any other sonic critsicms you have? im at a stage where my sonics are letting down my flow of ideas as i keep hearing tunes and think damn how are they getting that depth and detail and then spend the rest of the time trying to at least approximate the sound


greg

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Message 13/35                 Date: 15-Apr-05  @  09:04 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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you guys who are signed or working for a label- say i had a stormer of a tune but it sounded like that would that would they wanna remix it or simply think 'sod it'

greg

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Message 14/35                 Date: 15-Apr-05  @  06:37 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

S1GNALRUNNERS - BLU

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hey

well, i cant listen to clips just now, but were signed to a good few different labels ranging from the type who require a dead on mix for critique, to the more helpful ones who will ask for a touch up/slihght restructure if they think it has potential.- so all is not lost! Id say getting attention in the first plafce means having a good mix so they take notice, rather than them listening to a fucked sub bass growling over the bottom ened for 30 secs and switching off

Unless you are in a nice treated studio with hrs or gen etc i wouldnt bother going away from the m1s / headphones. if you know anyone who works at a nightclub witha big sound system then get your tracks down there before opening time and hear how they sound ( even better in a packed club if your confident enough , bodys soaking up any shite to give you a good idea )

hats the best tip i can givce, it might break you at first, but in the end it will ultimatelly make your mixing better, A big system will absolutely tear your mix to shreds potentially so be warned  

Send me a 256 of the track/clip to my SR address and ill have a peek for you, or give it a shove thru a big soundsystemn at the weekend and let you know where your going wrong m8

Alan

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Message 15/35                 Date: 18-Apr-05  @  08:59 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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thanks for the knowledge- yes it helps defeinitly- i would aim to send a well balanced mix in but probably not one that could compete with big studio affairs...im basically hoping i can get my mixing right so if and when it is mastered it still sounds fine and doesn't cause the engineer to reverese-mix it as it were.....


that would be simply awesome thanks!! im being real dumb though what is a 256? is it an mp3 file format?

thanks again!

greg

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Message 16/35                 Date: 19-Apr-05  @  01:15 PM     Edit: 19-Apr-05  |  01:15 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

S1GNALRUNNERS - BLU

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hey man, no sweat,

yeah soz 256 kps mp3  

alan

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Message 17/35                 Date: 19-Apr-05  @  01:18 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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cool, i actually have a track here now that has been balanced for club play so will encode that and send it on- cheers!!!

greg

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Message 18/35                 Date: 25-Apr-05  @  03:03 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

S1GNALRUNNERS - BLU

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hey man,

been trying to bounce that reply back to you, but i cant seem to get it going? its saying the email address is not found or something!

anyway, not being ignorant- ive been trying to reply  

alan

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Message 19/35                 Date: 25-Apr-05  @  12:41 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

k

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just to say... i saw another thread about 'playing on club systems' on another forum, and there is one thing about playing tracks thru big club systems. You probably end up making tracks less cluttered (or i find that anyways)... cos it's so loud, busy mixes can tend to get a bit muddled, simpler stuff comes over stronger on a PA, especialy very subtle things dont work so well unless mixed 101% perfectly, and even then, over-cluttering of a track still can be muddy. Also reverb tends to be cut down a bit, or at least i find it works better with less or at least be careful of how reverbs sound on club-playback, and lots of little very subtle things all happening at once which works on cans or monitors when played not so loud and in a quiet studio might not work loud thru a PA... just overall simpler mixes seem to work better as you start to mix for loud PA playback until you get more used to it

Hope that's useful mebbe

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 20/35                 Date: 25-Apr-05  @  01:11 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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definitely cheers k,

thankfully the track im refering to is minimal yet i have been back and found verb a little too high if i imagined it club-loud, sounded good to me but i though when load that revereb will be a bit too much!! also trying to stay away from panning any main element beyond two 9oclcock so the stereo spread doesn't loose things

no worries alan ive actually changed that track now and taken the riff out and replaced it- did what you said on the BD (i think) i can send you a copy tomorrow if ok?

funny thing is when i listen to cd-ready tracks on my monitors is a big lack of bass (yet sounds balanced) yet i know the same club in trackk will have loads- its def hard to get that balance when you cant really hear tha bass end...

cheers

greg

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Message 21/35                 Date: 05-May-05  @  10:35 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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right tomorrow ill post two mixes of the same excerpt....one done how i would balance thing (so you can get an idea of my monitoring) and one matched to the tonal balance of a pro release- i wont try and match sound or loudness just overall tonal balanace- hopefully that will help anyone identify my problem...

i have just abed some stuff on hte way into work in my car and was dissapointed that my top-heavy mix (which soudned a bit harsh too me) was dull compared to the pro tune i put in after- cant all be multiband compression and mastering? can it?

greg

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Message 22/35                 Date: 06-May-05  @  09:39 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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Right,

ive uploaded just one version, a version i balanaced against a morillo tune on a cd...to me this sounds a bit toppy and the bass end isnt as full....my previous version had the bass drum knocking harder but to conserve headroom ive had to renenvelope it and take some bass away- to me it sounds a bit thin but my last problem was they were too loud and prominent, the rest of the tune is balanced to the level of the bass drum and the spectrum of the morillo reference tune....

would be interested to hear your critiques on the mix balance....is the bass drum now too thin? is it just right? if i can crack the bd i can reference everything else to it and at least have a good starting point, as it is at the mo my procedure is this:

i get my bass drum banging, balance to it- realise i have very little headroom even though it is sounding as full as reference commercial tune- and good to my ears, record it at roughly the same volume as the ref tune- balk at the lack of top end in comparison- go back turn bd drum down make top heavy mix, balk at the fact my bass drums now sound like finger snaps, go back etc etc...

so if anything is not right please let me know- that goes for the mids too- any of them harsh to your ears?

oh and im moving soon so wikll potentially have a much better area to work in- woohoo!!

greg

ps- any constructive crits on the comp are welcomed although im not settled on the main riff- all suggestions on sharpening the sound are even more welcome!!

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Message 23/35                 Date: 09-May-05  @  12:58 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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right- im thinking the problem is definitly my monitoring- i did a tonal balance abing to a similar track- all was fine...recorded it and then listened through my headphones- no top end- used a 2 band parametric in the waves q10 to make a kind of s shape on its side- dip in the lowmid and boost in the high mid- helped enourmously but cant help wondering how i can get it so wrong- im moving soon so hopefully my new space will alieveate any monitoring problems i have,

greg

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Message 24/35                 Date: 10-May-05  @  02:34 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

k

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what speakers you got again?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 25/35                 Date: 10-May-05  @  08:34 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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alesis monitors passive mark 2s.....

greg

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Message 26/35                 Date: 10-May-05  @  01:12 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

k

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damn! - cant listen to the clip now - cant you add it as a form attachment or as a music file?

what's the room like?... what sort of walls?... floor?... shape, ?.... where are the speakers located? - what amp? is it a hi-fi amp?.... got it all set flat etc?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 27/35                 Date: 10-May-05  @  01:42 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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damn! - cant listen to the clip now - cant you add it as a form attachment or as a music file?

what's the room like?... what sort of walls?... floor?... shape, ?.... where are the speakers located? - what amp? is it a hi-fi amp?.... got it all set flat etc?


>>>>>>>>>>>

ill give it go, not done that before but cant see it being too difficult

basically my room (read bedsit) is a square but the furniture arrangements have mean that all my gear is in one corner-

speakers cant be more than an arms span away from each other-probably less- no more room in that sense- one is mounted on a kitchen cabinet the other on some books....at 60 degrees angle

amp is a samson servo, the monitor outs from my mixer run straight into that and then out into my speakers...

solid walls- old skool house means the walls between rooms aren't just crappy party walls but proper insultaed affairs....

carpeted floor, kitchen downstairs- its a large windowed/tall ceiling kind of place....

whole of my setups height maxes at below my shoulders meaningt i have to sit down to have my ears level....
even listening in my car the mix sounded ok, then i turn on a pro recording and hear a greater clarity and depth of the high end- almost like its bias towards the high end....im not sure if i have too much mid freqs causing me to turn the bass up or what....

greg

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Message 28/35                 Date: 13-May-05  @  10:20 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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ill up the two examples over the weekend- one how i would mix it and one with an eq curve on it- hopefully someone can tell me why i seem to pile so much midrange on...ill post a pic of the setup too- cheers for your help

greg

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Message 29/35                 Date: 27-Jun-05  @  01:15 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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[image file]

Right, i moved house but didn't end up with the mammoth room i wanted so have a rather limited set of options

attached is a bev of my new room- ive marked where furniture is to show that where i have my setup is the best place for it in terms of space (but probably worst in terms of sonics)

i have to put it all in the alcove pictures, behind the wall is a corridor/bathroom so the wall the speakers back onto isn't thick. the righthjand side wall of the alcove goes to the outside and also has awindow on it and the left hand wall goies onto a corridor- basically there are different thicknesses of wall around the alcove...

because they are alesis m1 mk2's there is no option on the backs of the monitors to compensate for being near a wall....

my idea is to make a gap underneath the speaker stand so the speakers aren't directly flat on the stands but elevated via some thin pins and to put some foam behind the speakers to help absorb some of the bass i reckon wilkl transfer to the walls and be amplified...

have you guys got any better ideas other than moving house, upgrading monitors or beating my flat mate until he gives up the bigger room? id like to get everything optimized before i start cabling everything back together...

cheers

greg

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Message 30/35                 Date: 27-Jun-05  @  05:37 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

k

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pu the bed where the gear is now by the wiondow uin the corner and put the gear & speakers on the longest wall where the bed is mebbe

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 31/35                 Date: 28-Jun-05  @  07:33 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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good idea, but the bed is like 2 inch too wide!! i know its damn annoying, seems like the only configuration i can use which gives me space for both music and moving aroiund is the one ive got...


greg

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Message 32/35                 Date: 28-Jun-05  @  01:45 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

k

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remove the bed and use just the matress then mebbe?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 33/35                 Date: 28-Jun-05  @  05:33 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

psylichon

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hahaha... anything for the sound!

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Message 34/35                 Date: 28-Jun-05  @  08:50 PM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

k

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it's better for your back mebbe too   - plus no creaking when you're on the job

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 35/35                 Date: 30-Jun-05  @  09:02 AM   -   RE: anyone got good eq ears?

monkeybasket2001

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think im probably on track with the pins and foam...cool stuff

greg

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