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Subject: sub grouping drum compression


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Original Message 1/21                 Date: 21-Jan-05  @  12:27 PM   -   sub grouping drum compression

Dominic

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When you guys sub group your drums to a stereo compressor are you really pumping the compressor so it shows like 9-12db of compression or more near the 3-6db? Probably depends on the tune but I'm talking about dancefloor stuff. My attack and release are always at the fastest cos that seems to pump a 4x4 groove the best. But kinda dunno if I'm killing my transients by working the compressor up to 12db worth of compression.



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Message 2/21                 Date: 21-Jan-05  @  02:34 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

damballah

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do the things that should crack still crack? if your attack's too fast that's what you'll lose.



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Message 3/21                 Date: 21-Jan-05  @  03:51 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

Dominic

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but keep the fastest release yer?



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Message 4/21                 Date: 21-Jan-05  @  04:14 PM     Edit: 21-Jan-05  |  04:15 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

psylichon

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stereo drum compression can be tricky. It really depends on the tune how much "pump" you want, but I generally am sucking between 3 and 6 dB out of the drums. Usually I start with a crazy low threshold so it's riding the compressor fully. then, with the fastest release, I slow down the attack until the kick and snare are popping as I like (you may need to pull the threshold back up a bit while you do this). Once I got the frontend of the waveform happening, I slow down the release so it fits with the tempo of the music. Often times, the fastest release gives you the most "in your face" sound, but can make the drums a bit overpowering. At this point, I raise the threshold to the point it sounds best. Gotta use your ears!

For dance music, often times the kick will be too prominent to send to the drum compressor full on at the level you want to hear it in the track. With all the low-end EQ gain you're probably doing, it will rob headroom and suck the life out of the rest of the drums. When this happens, I use an aux send or cloned track to send to the compressor with the rest of the drums. The main kick, which has its own compression (maybe compressed together with the bass), goes to the main buss. That way, you still get the "suck" when the kick hits, but you can control how much with the "ghost kick" clone track/aux send thingy. Just be VEEEERY careful of phase alignment when you do this. Plugin delay compensation can't always keep up with these kinda of routings. Again... use yer ears!



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Message 5/21                 Date: 21-Jan-05  @  04:37 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

Dominic

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Thank you psy. What a superb answer. Very clearly expalined.



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Message 6/21                 Date: 22-Jan-05  @  08:25 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

psylichon

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Well, i'm trying to work on explaining concepts like these in case i ever get a teaching gig. Here's another post on compression I made recently on the Sonar forums that I thought was well put, if I do say so myself.

The main thing to ask yourself when faced with the "should I compress?" question is "will it make it sound better?"

The way I see it, compression falls into three main categories:

Transient manipulation: This is when the attack and release settings are used to drastically alter the waveform of the incoming material. Mostly used with drums and bass with slow attack and fast release to make them "punchy" or "pumpy"

Leveling: This is using a compressor as you would your hand on a fader, riding the material so that the quiet parts aren't quite so quiet and the loud parts aren't so loud... reducing the dynamics (which a compressor always does, but in this case, you're trying to do it unnoticeably, with little distortion to the original waveform shape) slow attack and release, gentle ratios, soft knees, and make up gain are the key ingredients to this function.

Gain: This is what your mastering limiters (read: fast compressors) are trying to achieve. High threshold and fast attack/release times catch just the most transient of material, allowing you to brickwall headroom-robbing peaks and bring up the entire program to make the apparent level louder without clipping. This is usually only done in mastering, though it can be nice for certain elements in mixtime.

As you learn and experiment more with compression, keep these three main ideas in mind, and they will help you decide if compression is really required for any particular situation.

"Do I need to change the 'punchiness' of this sound?

"Do I need to smooth the dynamics of this track?"

"Is my track loud enough?"

something to keep in mind when asking "does this compressor improve the sound?" is the fact that louder almost always sounds better. Almost all compression, when makeup gain is applied, increases the apparent volume of your material. You need to A/B with an apparent-level-matched version of the uncompressed signal to truly determine if you're making it sound better through compression, or just louder.

Often times, it simply sounds better uncompressed, so why do it?



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Message 7/21                 Date: 23-Jan-05  @  02:31 AM     Edit: 23-Jan-05  |  02:37 AM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

S1GNALRUNNERS - BLU

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prolly totally the wrong way but i found thru experience that for 4/4 stuff your gonna not want to group the hi-hats with the kicks (although im sure ive read a million and one times your meant to, anyhow....)

to take of that crap crack ofg a fresh open off beat hat your gonna want the gnarliest compressor u can find and haev fastest attack possible with long release and take the snap out it, using it almost as a n eq to take the bite away. You may haev to try a few diff compressors till u find a good aggressive fast one (there is one that everyone and there dog uses  ) Sure it may sound rocking un-comped in your home studio but try it across a huge sound system in a heaving club and youll haev people covering there ears in pain, same goes with crashes - even more so now with cds getting spun, whereas vinyl kinda softens it up a bit and makes it more bareable and lets u away with it a bit- cds/digital is a definate no no.

Do what u like with the other stuff, groupwise, but try usinga diff setting for the crashes, and open hats

hope this helps!

Blu



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Message 8/21                 Date: 27-Apr-05  @  02:56 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

monkeybasket2001

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can anyone tell me (and yes this another one of my goony/hardwarecentric/why-cant-i-sound-pro-on-nonpro-gear? questions)

how i can get round or calculate the delay i get when comping a subgroup so when i mix the supercompressed version back in they are not phasing?

i could take a copy of the original beat, delay it and then use that to mix in but dont know how i could calculate the amount of offset i need....i know i know- i should get a pc, get logic and use that but i dont have the cash...

greg



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Message 9/21                 Date: 27-Apr-05  @  05:43 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

milan

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wait a minute... werent you using analog gear? where does the delay come from?

if its from a h/w unit, i think you cant know the delay w/out recording both versions in parallel and comparing them.



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Message 10/21                 Date: 28-Apr-05  @  09:27 AM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

monkeybasket2001

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sorry when i said analogue i meant not digital but dont think my dbx 266xl is actually analogue- there is a very slight delay- i only know by running the wet and dry side by side and i can hear the phase...time to smpte my pc up i think...

so with a pure analogue compressors there is no delay?

greg



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Message 11/21                 Date: 28-Apr-05  @  02:23 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

k

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there'll be a fraction of course cos the signal has to go up cables into comp, thru comp and back to mixer, but it's fractional

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 12/21                 Date: 28-Apr-05  @  03:18 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

monkeybasket2001

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FRACTIONAL SOUNDS OK- MY QUESTION COMES FROM LOADS OF HOUSE HEADS RAVING ABOUT THE NEW YORK COMPRESSION TRICK (*@£$! caps!) but whenever i tried i got phase- they must have decent analogues to run this through rather than my very questionable dbx 266xl....i also have a cl-150 but its mono unfortunately...

greg



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Message 13/21                 Date: 28-Apr-05  @  04:10 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

k

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don't get it?... whats up with your DBX?.. it is analog

and how do you mean - you get 'phasing' - how? - in what way?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 14/21                 Date: 28-Apr-05  @  04:33 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

monkeybasket2001

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ive again (as is my wont) probably confused things-

you know when you send a signal through an aux to en effect unit but dont send a completely wet signal back you get a kind of phasing/comb filtered sound when mixed with the original(i say phase cos i guess phases are cancelling- giving a slightly flanged/brittle sound)? well i hope so as its that sound im getting....the beat becomes thinner and certain freqs seems to be sucked up.....

sounds a bit like when you layer two sounds over each other or when you use very short delay times.....

i was thinking perhaps the dbx had some sort of circuit in there that enduces a delay causing the compressed sound to clash rather than mix with the original and that the only way to realign was to copy the dry and delay that by the same amount and then not use the original dry signal in the tune at all...BUT if the dbx is no different to any other analogue compressor in that respect i must be doing something at another stage to cause this issue- for the record it happens when i send signals via aux and dont have a 100% wet feeding back- so could be me......oh and the comps are fed lines as my subgroups have no inserts and im subbing the mixed drums and then feeding the sub via the comp back to a pair of mono channels (which are not going to the sub)

have you succcesfully done this in the hardware domain? f so what comp and what mixer were you able to achieve this with?

greg



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Message 15/21                 Date: 28-Apr-05  @  06:49 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

milan

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"you know when you send a signal through an aux to en effect unit but dont send a completely wet signal back you get a kind of phasing/comb filtered sound when mixed with the original(i say phase cos i guess phases are cancelling- giving a slightly flanged/brittle sound)? well i hope so as its that sound im getting....the beat becomes thinner and certain freqs seems to be sucked up"

ayup... you're getting analog phasing from somewhere.

"i was thinking perhaps the dbx had some sort of circuit in there that enduces a delay "

nope... not deliberately at least. it is however possible that compression induces a phase shift.

otr maybe like the others said, you just have a delay anyway bexcause of passing it to there and back. not sure if i ever tried combining dry and processed signal like that in analog domain so i'm not sure about that. only use inserts for compressing usually...



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Message 16/21                 Date: 29-Apr-05  @  02:40 AM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

damballah

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well, a compressor alters the envelope and can have an effect on eq which could have a cancelling as well as an enhancing effect, no.



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Message 17/21                 Date: 29-Apr-05  @  09:28 AM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

monkeybasket2001

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gotcha, cheers- i guess the comp settings im using are messing the phase up but its ok, its not something i can see as essential
(got by so far) would just like to have truied it out- will wait until i upgrade my mixer to one with inserts on the subs.

cheers

greg



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Message 18/21                 Date: 30-Apr-05  @  09:57 AM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

k

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yeah, but you dont send signals out via AUX's and return dry un-fx'd signals to the original - you dont use aux's for compressing signals - you use them for Additive fx

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 19/21                 Date: 01-May-05  @  05:41 AM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

psylichon

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yeah the proper way to do it i guess would be to somehow split the signal from your multitrack to a dry channel and a wet channel (the wet channel being the one with the comp on insert).

The method you're using should work fairly well as long as you're returning a completely "wet" signal on return (and I don't know of many analog compressors that have a "wet:dry" knob)

Anyways, keep on experimenting with different routings.... be creative.... it should work!



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Message 20/21                 Date: 03-May-05  @  11:04 AM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

monkeybasket2001

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nah i dont k, what i meant was the sound is similar to what you get when you do that with fx when you are first working it all out-... its the only sound i coudl approximate it too- i definitly dont use dry aux returns or even auxes for my compression...


psy that is a much better way of doing it, the sub way makes sense but onlyt if you have an insert on it...

cheers

greg



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Message 21/21                 Date: 03-May-05  @  01:30 PM   -   RE: sub grouping drum compression

monkeybasket2001

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damn- after rereading that i really must explain myself better- seems half the reponses i illicit are 'eh? what you talking 'bout?' - hehehe

greg



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