Original Message 1/39                 Date: 12-Jan-04  @  04:17 PM   -   Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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How come all I can ever find when I go hunting for sample CDs is acid loops?!? I can never find any decent single-hit drum CDs. All I want are a bunch of different kits, in Akai format, ready to go. That's it.

So, does anybody have any suggestions for real drums? I need rock kits, I'm totally covered on electronic drums. No loops, but I guess they'd be OK if they came on the CDs with the regular kits   I prefer Akai format, but also Emu will work, or I could deal with .wav and build my own program I guess, but I'd prefer Akai or Emu.

I'm also looking for a CD of pads and orchestral instruments. The key with the orchestral instruments is that I don't want to spend a ton of money on a big orchestra set, but I also don't want the samples to sound like doo doo either.

Any suggestions?!?

-Craig

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Message 2/39                 Date: 12-Jan-04  @  06:32 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

k

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yup - FXPansion BFD & EDIROL Orchestral - all you need - albeit they might seem pricey, but the amount you'd need to spend on sample CD's to cover what those two get you would EASILY outstrip the cost of those two softs and probably wouldnt sound so good (certainly, BFD is SO realistic & Orchestral sound superb, easily as good as a decent sample-set), and CERTAINLY it would take AGES pissing about to load & setup samples compared to using those two softs.

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 3/39                 Date: 12-Jan-04  @  07:32 PM     Edit: 12-Jan-04  |  07:36 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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Yeah, I know... But I'm going to need them live as well... BFD would be out unless I did a lot of work re-sampling hits into Akai format and making programs. Maybe I could render the orchestral sounds down to loops and sample them. It'd depend on what else was going on in the track and what other parts I could play..

I'll look into it.

-Craig

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Message 4/39                 Date: 13-Jan-04  @  05:09 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

queasy00

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hey...

why not put bfd on a laptop? i know you're a hardware guy but it doesn't seem to need a lot of power and if the laptop juust runs bfd hooked up to your sequencer and drum triggers, i'm sure it'd be fine.. you won't even need to look at the screen that much since it looks like you can just assign each hit to a midi note anyway. also, you could always sequence the drums first and then make programs out of them.

looks like 9 gigs of samples too! (9 gigs of space required)

-j
ps: man, bfd looks sweet!

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Message 5/39                 Date: 13-Jan-04  @  06:17 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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'cause I have an Akai S6000 studio already, and I don't want to spend $1k on a laptop   I know and love the Akai inside and out, and I don't want to drop it. I also don't want to depend on computers live.

I ordered "Drumkit from Hell" yesterday, so we'll see how that goes.

-Craig

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Message 6/39                 Date: 13-Jan-04  @  06:47 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

queasy00

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ic... i figured you could buy a cheap laptop though.. but you're right.. it'd still be expensive.

tell me how those drum samples are cause i'm also on the lockout for real/acoustic drums.

-j

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Message 7/39                 Date: 13-Jan-04  @  07:56 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

psylichon

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drumkit from hell is a blast. I woulda recommended it, but I thought it was giga and other soft formats only. Not a whole lot of variety, except in the snare department, but the sounds is huge an very realistic. A bit of a ambient noise issue if you pile up the hits with a lot of compression, but otherwise a fine pick.

I used it on my latest "philly ambient 2" track if you want a DT demo  

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Message 8/39                 Date: 13-Jan-04  @  08:04 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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It'll be here tomorrow, actually. So I can wait. What I really needed was a great sounding real rock kit with a minimum amount of bullshit that I can get a lot of mileage out of, so it seems like it'll fit the bill. The demos sounded very natural. It does come in Akai format, BTW.

-Craig

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Message 9/39                 Date: 13-Jan-04  @  08:44 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

milan

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umm... what happened to bob clearmountain drums? i think that was a single hit/kit cd with good sounds.. dunno if its still available(?)

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Message 10/39                 Date: 13-Jan-04  @  09:27 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

psylichon

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um... I've heard them. A little timid by today's standards

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Message 11/39                 Date: 13-Jan-04  @  11:32 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

Broken Silence

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EDIROL Orchestral is great- i use it in every one of my tracks for strings, pianos, violins etcetc..I love it

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Message 12/39                 Date: 14-Jan-04  @  02:05 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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I looked at the Clearmountain drums. The Akai versions seem to be going out of print or something, 'cause it's difficult to find in Akai format. I also noticed that while it goes for like 80 euros or so, it's like $150 over here

There was another called "mega giga drums" or something like that. The demos sounded OK, maybe I'll pick it up later on down the line. This Cd plus what I've already got should get me through my current stuff.

-Craig

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Message 13/39                 Date: 15-Jan-04  @  05:34 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

digital dave

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Why do you want to stick with an Akai? That means midi leads, which means 15-20ms midi delay, which means ya drums ain't tight. Go for a soft sampler and have access to faster programming, much better fx than in the inbuilt Akai FX, sample accurate timing and a big screen to see what ya doing.

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Message 14/39                 Date: 15-Jan-04  @  06:44 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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Listen, I don't believe all that crap about the drums not being tight. I've been programming over 5 years on hardware and I don't have the kind of slop people complain about. And I play, so there's always going to be MIDI connecting the controller to the PC. Even drums, I use an electronic kit and I'll be using a live drummer on triggers for this project.

And do not trust computers on stage. Probably never will.

-Craig

PS - I dare you to measure 15-20ms timing slop in my MIDI rig.

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Message 15/39                 Date: 15-Jan-04  @  09:37 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

Yonce N Mild

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Ha Ha
Craig, from your total distrust of computers I'm guessing you and me are in a similar line of work. I remember you mentioning you had a computer science degree but I could be wrong. So what do ya do Net Admin ? Tech support ?


I'm in tech support myself, my official title is Corporate IT Support specialist, but that makes sound alot cooler than it really is

I do all the tech support for the corporate headquarters of a medium sized company (600 employees worldwide about 150 here) So I spend my work days fixing computers.

I agree I would NEVER trust a computer live on stage at least not with a setup I could afford. besides the risk of the computer crashing on you there are about a hundred other things that could go wrong (has your computer ever locked up on you in the middle of playing a cd or a track from your DAW remember that horrible noise imagine that pumping through a club system) and you risk your laptop getting stolen/stepped on or filled with beer

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Message 16/39                 Date: 15-Jan-04  @  10:11 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

Stuff

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I don't believe all that midi timing delay crap. If it was that horrible every dance track made before year 2000 (or something) would flam. And as far as i remember the drums were f*cking tight even before then.
Maybe if you daisy-chain all the equipment you'll notice a (huuuuge) delay.

Btw, if everything in a track is midi (h/w) - every sound in the track will have the same timing issue, 15-20 ms or whatever digital dave said. So whats the deal if the instruments are synced to each other..

And a sampler is rock solid for live performance. I read someone found unbelievable things (like beer, cigarettes etc.) inside his Akai's when being on tour. And the machines were working as usual.

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Message 17/39                 Date: 16-Jan-04  @  07:28 AM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

psylichon

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15-20 ms, eh? oooookaaaaaaay, bucko, whatever you say...

I know that I cannot play live MIDI drums with more than 10-12 ms delay, which I have only experienced through software (on an older card with bad drivers). I know for a fact that my hardware timing has always been better than even my best software performance (which is 1.5 ms)

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Message 18/39                 Date: 16-Jan-04  @  07:34 AM     Edit: 16-Jan-04  |  07:35 AM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

psylichon

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Ok, I've heard this enough times to force me into a quick Google search. First result:

http://www.audiomidi.com/classroom/midi/midi_latency.cfm

"There has been much confusion regarding MIDI latency and it all can be traced back to a misprint about MIDI timing in an old article of Keyboard Magazine.

With all electronic instruments there is a measurable degree of latency, a delay between when you tell the instrument to do something and when it actually does it. That measurement, however, is incredibly small. While Audio latency is measured in term of Milliseconds, MIDI latency is usually measured in terms of nanoseconds.

Now that's not to say that there can not be any delay in using a MIDI setup. Some synthesizers are inherently slower than others in producing sound. Some synthesizers patches are designed with a slow attack, as well."

15-20 ns is more like it.

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Message 19/39                 Date: 16-Jan-04  @  02:09 PM     Edit: 16-Jan-04  |  02:16 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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Thanks for the backup guys. I think people who experience lots of MIDI timing difficulties are probably chaining a lot of MIDI gear off of a little USB MIDI interface. My rig uses a MOTU MIDI Timepiece for the synths and every device has its own dedicated port. I don't have any timing problems at all.

Yonce - I do hold a computer science degree. I am a Senior Programmer/Analyst for University Business Services at the State Univeristy of New York at Buffalo. That was a mouthful, wasn't it? I develop applications for human resources, financials, and procurement. Cold Fusion against Oracle with a little Flash, and legacy apps in Microsoft Visual Foxpro. The university has about 28,000 faculty, staff, and students. Directly I probably work with about 300 people or so, but I do produce applications for the university community at large. All 28,000 of 'em.

All the information you could ever want about my job

My background definately influences my decisions on whether or not to trust PCs and what to trust them with. On one hand, we know that computers go down (usually with catastrophic consequences and at the worst time). On the other hand they're sometimes the best tool for the job - ie recording and mixing.

The other way to look at it is that when you're builiding a large-scale system, you use dedicated pieces designed for specific functions to get the maximum performance from your system.

Either way, I still think PCs lose to hardware, at least in terms stability and latency and user interface. Software is more flexible and sounds just as good.

-Craig

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Message 20/39                 Date: 19-Jan-04  @  12:39 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

digital dave

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You lot are mad! You seriously telling me that music made in 1995, on a Akai sampler sounds as tight as music made in 2002 on a soft sampler. Crazy and not true. You take jungle as an example, now its not my bag but if you look at a tune like Origin Unknown - valley of the shadows and compare that drum sound to an Andy C tune today, the drums sound sooooo much tighter. Its exactly the same with tech house. Listen to a Bushwacka! record of his label plank from 1998 and compare that to the sound of his tunes today and the drums are much, much tighter. You lot telling me that every different manufactorers synths and samples plugged in through a midi interface are ALL going to have exactly the same midi delay? No their not, your JV2080 might have a 15ms delay, your Akai sampler mayne a 20ms, your nore lead might have a 12ms, etc. This is going to make a difference. Alright, punters on the dancefloor aren't going to stop dancing, stroke the chin and go "nah, his bass is coming 10ms later than the drums" but MY POINT is that I can notice a difference, there is a difference and soft sampler drums sound tighter than any hardware samplers drums (apart from a MPC 3000 used soley on its own).

Just my opinion.

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Message 21/39                 Date: 20-Jan-04  @  02:33 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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Man, you're talking about like .0001 seconds vs .00015 seconds. It's really not that noticable. And besides - does it sound BETTER? Personally, I don't care. And if you read about how I work, you'll realize that there's no way to eliminate MIDI in a system in which you actually play the instruments. You can't sit a drummer down in front of a software sampler.

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Message 22/39                 Date: 20-Jan-04  @  06:37 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

psylichon

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yeah dave, I think you're missing the point here. And you obviously didn't read my link or else you wouldn't still be citing latency times in milliseconds

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Message 23/39                 Date: 27-Jan-04  @  02:49 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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As a quick followup: The Drumkit from Hell rocks. But it's kind of a specific purpose tool. First off, I'd have to say it's the most realistic sampled drum kit I've ever used. It sounds incredible. But there are some caveats. First off, it's huge. For those of you using gigasampler or one of the computer based formats, this won't concern you. But if you're on a hardware machine, it's 250MB... So you'll need to fully expand your memory in an Akai S5/6000. Secondly, if you don't have the effects board, all you're really getting are the raw samples - you'll have to be a decent mixer to get the best out of the kit. These aren't ready-to-use prefab drums. This is obviously an advantage and a disadvantage. If you DO have the FX, then there are some really nice sounding "produced" drum kits included on the CD.

My major complaints are the fact that these kits basically eat your entire sampler. They use almost all the available memory and your entire effects board. This is cool in the studio, but what happens when I want to take those great drum sounds on the road? Well, I'm going to have a few hours of programming ahead of me so I can open up enough room for the rest of my set   It'd be great if they'd provide 128MB versions of their kits like Akai does with their sampled pianos. Maybe after I've programmed them I'll share so they can be included on the CD or provided as a free download.

As a studio tool though, these drums are awesome. I was able to create a patch on my DTX to control the kit on the sampler quite easily (thanks to a nifty little keymap diagram that was included in the CD sleeve). Having access to a kit this realistic has transformed the usually cheesy-sounding DTX into a really nice sounding kit. I'll be having a real drummer around at some point soon who can give a better impression on the feel but the sound is really great and the velocity switching is incredibly smooth and realistic.

At around $120 US, the CD is a bit pricey for what amounts to one drumkit. But, these are probably the best sounding rock drums you're going to get out of a sampler. Highly recommended if you need one high quality, versatile drum kit.

-Craig

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Message 24/39                 Date: 27-Jan-04  @  05:13 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

queasy00

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thanks for the followup

-j

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Message 25/39                 Date: 27-Jan-04  @  06:33 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

Stuff

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Yeah, thanks. Seriously.
Some threads just seem to fade away into oblivion though many unanswered questions remains (i've followed many old and archived DT-topics with this problem).
The information Craig shared about 'Drumkit from Hell' is very useful especially for a hardware user like me.   tho maybe i can forget to use it on my s3kXL (32 mb RAM) ;-)

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Message 26/39                 Date: 27-Jan-04  @  06:47 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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Well, yes. It's in S5/6000 format, so the multis programs and samples are all in the wrong format.

K could use this as a review. I can add some additional thoughts when I have the time.

One really cool thing I think Psy metioned before is that for each multi you get three versions of the samples - one close miked, one close miked gated, and one room mike. So you can mix your ambiences to suit your needs. Really great stuff for studio.

-Craig

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Message 27/39                 Date: 28-Jan-04  @  03:22 AM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

psylichon

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My biggest beef with the DFH is the lack of hihat dynamics. The hat needs at LEAST if not MORE attention to detail than the snare, imo.

I love how they map out the kit.... I actually play my drum parts, fills and all, pretty much live on the keys. Something I've picked up from waiting for downloads all my life, I guess, but I can hold my own on a keyboard kit. The left/right hand mappings are perfect for people like me... and the velocity on the snare really is top notch.

It's a shame they don't give you a smaller versions in the akai version... that's kinda silly. I mean, some of those single hits ring out for 10+ seconds... that's unnecessary.

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Message 28/39                 Date: 28-Jan-04  @  04:36 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

IntoxicatingSounds

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Midi transmission data rate is approximately 30000 bits/sec. A midi “note on” message consists of three bytes, (status, note value and velocity value) each byte needs 10 bits of data, so that’s 30 bits. Divide 30000 by 30 and you get 1000. That’s 1ms to transmit a note on message. So if your sequencer tries to transmit two simultaneous note on messages on the same midi port they will be at least 1ms apart when received by the sound source. To this will be added the delay between the synth receiving the message and triggering the sound. No musician could play with timing accuracy of 1ms and I don’t believe anyone could hear the delay between two different sounds played 1ms or even 10ms apart. But what you can hear in sample based instruments are phase differences. If you play a sample of a 500Hz sine wave and then trigger it again 1ms later you will hear nothing! The second note will be 180 degrees out of phase and will completely cancel out the first one. Increase the delay to 2ms and you will hear the sound loud and clear again. So very small timing differences can make a huge difference to the sound. I’ve noticed this effect on layered kick drums. You’ve got two kicks at the start of a bar and they sound fine together, then as you bring more sounds in you notice that the thump is getting weaker sometimes as the timing is pushed out by the additional midi data and certain frequencies start to cancel out. Conversely you may notice a loud peak that overloads your recorder input occasionally as certain frequencies come into phase and reinforce each other.

Of course all this is academic. The delays are so unpredictable that you cannot hope to work out how to fix it so it all comes down to “use your ears”. If you think it sounds wrong then fiddle with things until it sounds right. But I suppose it helps to know why it may sound wrong.

Deano

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Message 29/39                 Date: 28-Jan-04  @  04:42 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

IntoxicatingSounds

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And where audiomidi get the idea of nanosecond latency I don't know but it's just nonsense. Maybe they are refering to the time taken for the sequencer to instruct the midi port to transmit the data.

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Message 30/39                 Date: 28-Jan-04  @  05:52 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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Three bytes is 24 bits, not 30.

-Craig

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Message 31/39                 Date: 28-Jan-04  @  11:25 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

j-type

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there are 10 bits in a MIDI byte though

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Message 32/39                 Date: 29-Jan-04  @  12:09 AM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

queasy00

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yea, one stop, one start bit.

-j

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Message 33/39                 Date: 29-Jan-04  @  12:33 AM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

milan

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ah thanks! i was holding back for not remembering what they were called!

i guess i forgot my midi 1.01 with time... *sigh*

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Message 34/39                 Date: 29-Jan-04  @  02:27 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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I make no claim to be an expert on MIDI. But, according to the MIDI spec, bytes are 8 bits long, and practically speaking, most note-on messages consist of only 2- not three - bytes.

At http://www.ibiblio.org/emusic-l/info-docs-FAQs/MIDI-doc/MIDI-Primer.txt there's an example of the trailing edges of a the first and last notes of a six-note chord being 3.2ms apart - meaning effective latency for a pair of notes under 1ms.

Regardless, it's academic. My setup is tight enough for me, and many other pro and not so pro musicians agree with me. If it was so entirely unusable the people who make synths would've adopted something else by now.

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Message 35/39                 Date: 29-Jan-04  @  04:45 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

Deano

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Yes a byte consists of 8 bits of data but two extra bits are transmitted so that the receiver knows where the data starts and stops. You are right that note on messages can be 2 bytes long. The first byte is the status which defines which midi channel the note is on. If this is the same as the previous note then the status byte is not transmitted. So a six note chord all on the same channel would be 12 bytes long (about 3.5ms). I'm guessing, but I would think that a sequencer would send any simultaneous note on messages in blocks for each channel to minimise the amount of data being sent.

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Message 36/39                 Date: 30-Jan-04  @  01:34 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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Regardless, 3.5ms is less than the amount of time it takes for the trumpets to hit the clarinets in a typical large orchestra, and nobody complains that the orchestra has sloppy timing...

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Message 37/39                 Date: 30-Jan-04  @  02:18 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

beds

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and like when a guitarist stand 6 foot away from his amp on stage. speed of sound, what's that 1 foot = 1ms? some sort of ballpark figure innit.

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Message 38/39                 Date: 30-Jan-04  @  06:50 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

craig

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Just about.. It's like 1100-some feet per second.. Google for it - I did when I got that orchestra number.

Anyways, I've been realizing a lot that people get way too caught up in the numbers these days. Just make music, eh?

-Craig

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Message 39/39                 Date: 30-Jan-04  @  11:40 PM   -   RE: Why are there no single-hit CDs?

Pongoid

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1130fps, at sea level. this changes with different barometric conditions, humidity, temperature, all kinds of that stuff. milliseconds, make a difference to some people, especially in recording types, but live...yeah I suppose I do like my drums pretty tight, but they don't need to be perfect. My timing on my sequencer mutes, my key chops, and my bass are not that spectacular either. Fuck it. I don't care. I'm playing the shit, not just hitting start and stop. The stuff feels like it does because if imperfections. Like it or lump it, just get over it, and make music.

At home I use the MTPAV too, and with Logic it does time quite nicely.

Ape

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