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Subject: One Iraqi-american & a bird


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Original Message 1/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  07:19 AM   -   One Iraqi-american & a bird

Jon s

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http://komo1000news.com/audio/kvi_aircheck_031003.mp3


One true Iraqi gent and a mindless bird have a go.

Remember this guy's words when you see those "me too" protesters on the streets...they're (unknowingly) promoting slaughter everyday by letting saddam stay in power.



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Message 2/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  08:59 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Zazza

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So can we make a list of dictators around the world and assasinate them one by one?

How do we bring human rights to china without removing the regime by force?

How do we bring human rights to zimbabwe without removing the regime?

How do we bring human rights to saudi arabia without removing the regime by force?

How do we bring human rights to Iran without removing the regime by force?

How do we bring human rights to Kuwait without removing the regime by force?

How do we bring human rights to North Korea without removing the regime by force?

Eritrea, Belarus, Somalia, Mauritania, Cuba, etc etc etc etc

Why Iraq?

The US is quite happy to support Saudi Arabia for instance.. a country that still employs slavery.. tortures its own citizens etc etc...

A concerted and consistent approach to countries that repress, torture and murder its own people would in my humble opinion be more effective than the sheer hypocrisy and self-serving foregin policy that has led to the current situation in the middle-east, south america, africa and other areas in the world..

Removing democratically elected leaders, installing dictatorships and supplying chemical and other weapons on the one hand, and then claiming the moral high-ground on the other is not only morally bankrupt it also makes the US look like an evil joke to the people on the receiving end. Why? Because they are dying, being disenfranchised and impoverished by US foreign policy.

We had an opportunity after the terrorist attack on sept 11th to begin to institute a new world order based on the rule of law, administered by international bodies. Making it increasingly difficult for these dicators to spirit away money in hidden bank accounts, obtain weapons with whichto repress their own people and removing their ability to move around the world with impunity.

Instead, the US, with the complicity of the UK, seeks to a impose a new world order based on military might and self-interest and has removed itself from the new court of international law etc etc

Bring on the new century of terror.



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Message 3/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  09:14 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Broken Silence

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we dont give a shit about any of those countries you listed becuase once they get nuclear capabilities, they wont use em cause they are pussies. the problem with iraq is that hussein will use any weapon against anyone once he receives it because 1) he's a sick fuck and 2) hes insane.

even though you hate america, you can still realize that we are doing something good- put everything else you think aside and look at the situation right now. we are liberating oppressed people and removing a leader who kills, rapes and tortures his own people. do some research hussein, and im sure the "beer" comment earlier will be taken back.



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Message 4/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  09:21 AM     Edit: 24-Mar-03  |  09:27 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Zazza

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What nuclear capabilities?

Yes, Sadaam is one evil bastard, one of many... one of many who have been helped into and maintained in power by the US, because it suited their 'national interests', just as the war now is motivated not by 'helping the Iraqi people' but by those same interests.

And i certianly don't 'hate' america. I hate the evil psychotic murderers that have hijacked US foreign policy, but the american people have always espoused truth and justice.

Power to them and their cause.



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Message 5/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  09:28 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Jon

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Well, so much for a decent thread when zazza wants to have a wank all over it  



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Message 6/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  09:28 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Broken Silence

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that's what this is all about, nuclear capabilities, we dont really care about bioterrorism. once one country sets off a nuke, they all do and guess what happens. the media is using that as a threat to pursuade the public to have better feelings on the war and make it seem like sadaam is striking "close to home." it really has all to do with the big shit, nuclear weapons.

we're not just playing the big brother here, which is why most people think we shouldnt be there. we are saving our ass from getting nuked in the future.

i (being serious and not trying to be a jackass) think you most likely already know this, because you seem to have done alot of research to back up your point.

i also want to say again that im not attacking you in any way, this is merely a discusion and dont mean to be coming across as rude because i think my earlier post kinda did.



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Message 7/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  09:29 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Zazza

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Tightly argued Jon  



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Message 8/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  09:30 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Jon

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Not a complement just to clue you in.

It's okay to stay on topic junior.



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Message 9/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  09:34 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Zazza

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Hmmm...



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Message 10/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  09:51 AM     Edit: 24-Mar-03  |  09:55 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

psylichon

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what exactly is the "topic" jon? Is the "bird" supposed to represent all of the anti-war sentiment? Give me a break!

psy



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Message 11/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  10:32 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

k

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The thing is Jon... remember BEFORE 9/11?...

so the huge ww global anti-US & anti-corp protests were fiction?... so much anti feeling that the G7 c*nts were going to have to meet in the middle of the ing rocky mountains surrounded by army guards?

you think that all went away?

do you live in a ing cave?

Stop buying The Sun mebbe?



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Message 12/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  10:42 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Jon

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Tell us how you *really* feel about a free world and economy?  


Sounds like you and Zazza would like to see Iraq left alone...free for saddam to run the country amok. And you are truly fooled by "me too" protests, whereby numbers attempt to persuade minds, I've got a Big Ben clock to sell you, on the cheap even. Socialist power! (repeat repeat)



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Message 13/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  01:32 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Def Z

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Zazza - you raise some good arguments. But the thing that I can't quite figure out, is when you talk about an opportunity to create a new world order based on law, why was the UN so unable to act? The opportunity has been there for 12 years (since the last Gulf War, anyways) for law to be enforced, but there was little to no attempt to fix the problem. Putting aside the fact that the US supported Iraq for many years (I'm familiar with Cold War foreign policy), it doesn't change the fact that the UN (can we agree that this is the world governing body?) was not able to do ANYTHING. It wasn't until our chickens came home to roost on Sept 11 that the US really started pushing for action.

Yes, I understand that the US has supported many of the people who are doing bad things, but does that mean that these people should be left alone 20 years after the fact? Maybe I'm missing the argument but it sounds to me like you're saying "well, the US supported Saddam, so they shouldn't be involved in trying to fix the problem that they created. Let's leave him alone and hope he gets better on this own." Perhaps I'm missing the point, but I don't see a better option. I have tried to pay attention to the anti-war protests, but I can't find a solution to the Saddam problem. Is he a threat to his neighbors and/or the rest of us? I think so - to the point that he needs to be removed from power. The anti-war protests haven't provided a clear alternative.

Sanctions haven't worked as Saddam is going around them with the help of France and Russia. The money he is getting is not helping the vast Iraqi middle class, rather it's building him new palaces. International pressure hasn't worked (UN). I'm not quite sure that too many NGO aid groups would make it out of Iraq alive. I just don't see any other options.

Based on the websites you posted Zazza, I could see that someone could reach the conclusion that the US CREATED these problems (in Iraq, for example) 20+ years ago in order for a few big oil and munitions companies to increase their payouts to shareholders. I guess I have a REAL hard time believing that.

And believe me, there is NOTHING I would like to see more than consistency in US foreign policy. What I'd also like to see are other countries helping the cause. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know about other countries putting forth a HUGE humanitarian effort to help the countries you mentioned. Why does the rest of the world expect the US to do it all, as you clearly point out it should?

It seems to me that the US and UK tried and tried to get the world to back the international pressure it put on Saddam, but too many other countries wouldn't stand behind the paper they signed. Do you suppose the countries in question didn't stand up because the US put Pinochet in Chile and then supported his reign of terror? Or sold Saddam all this bad stuff in 1980 to fight Iran? Or because the US isn't trying to invade North Korth because they have nucs too? Or perhaps it's because the US helped install the Shah of Iran in the 50s?

These are all good reasons to hate the foreign policy of the US (and I do, especially so after Sept 11 because it is no secret to me why the US was targeted), but it doesn't help to solve the problem of Saddam. UNLESS you think that the US intentionally created Saddam 20+ years ago in order for George W. Bush and Dick Chenney to reap the rewards with the Halliburton shares.

Or, my entire understanding of the world is wrong. At which point, I'll cry.



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Message 14/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  01:48 PM     Edit: 24-Mar-03  |  01:50 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Zazza

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The USA's aid, in terms of percentage of their GDP is already lowest of any industrialized nation in the world.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

The US and the UK have consistently undermined the UN.. the US vetoing any number of resolutions designed to resolve the Israel, Palestine situation..

Again no-one argues that Sadaam is not a cruel and vicious dictator, just the about the means of dealing with him and similar tyrants around the world.

Given that the US and the UK have been manipulating the situation in the Middle East for the last century, and that the current mess is the result, maybe it is time to try another approach. If you think that the current action in Iraq will bring peace to the region I believe you are mistaken.

Unfortunately, the ties between money and power especially in the US means that decisions are made for then profit of the few and not for the human rights of the many. A simple study of the historic involvement of the US and the UK in the Middle East, Third World and Latin America will show this to be the case..

Unsurprisingly, this history of murder, assasination, destablisation, exploitation and lies has not endeared many people outside the US to these policies.

I think it is time for the people to wrest power from these murderous, dead-souled creatures so the foreign policies of these nations can express the basic good nature and principles of the populations.

To do that, we need to educate ourselves beyond the bland, media-fed garbage that is dished out to us.

Re your comments about aid:

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp



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Message 15/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  02:01 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Def Z

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Zazza - I'm reading your link.

Okay - so lets say (for the sake of argument) I jump on the anti-war bandwagon. Someone is bound to ask me "er, what are the alternatives?" What would my answer be?



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Message 16/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  02:22 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Zazza

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Set up an international court, issue legal edicts to freeze assets of any dictators judged to be in contravention of an international (not US/UK) definition of 'human rights'.

Refuse to do business with dictatorships, rather than selling them weapons and doing 'under-the-carpet' deals between large corporations and those nations with tacit governmental approval.

Actively support exsiting democratic governments, even if that means US corporations lose some of their profits.. (see Venezuela).

Stop driving third world nations into poverty through aggressive IMF and World Bank/Free Trade/IPR (Intellectual Property Rights) agreements which simply destroy the local economies, again for the benefit of western corporations.

Allow third world nations to either produce or buy generic alternatives to Aids drugs etc when they cannot afford to buy at the inflated prices charged by western pharmaceutical companies.

All these measures and more will have a profound efect on the way the world views the west and the US and UK in particular.

Currently, the US has refused to join the International Court, blocked the sale of cheap AIDS drugs, sidelined the UN and either opted out of, or actively opposed most initiatives of this nature. This stance can usually, if not always, be traced back to powerful industry lobbies in the US.

And, don't fall for the trick of letting the US/UK set the agenda, i.e. 'Why Don't we go in and try to wrest power from Sadaam the evil dictator'

The question might be rephrased as:

'Haven't we learnt from the last hundred years of history that going into Middle-Eastern ountries and installing puppet goverments has yielded nothing but dictatorships, repression, despair, misery and instability, why do we want to do it again?'

And do NOT fall for the moral argument, which is laughable to put it politely..

How would the US react/vote in the UN if Russia decided to go in and liberate Iran on the same basis? (Or indeed any other country)

It is against the UN charter to invade sovereign states.. otherwise we open a Pandora's box and every contry with an agenda will be doing it in the name of 'Truth, Justice and the (insert country's name here) way.'

The US is currently the most powerful country in the world, it should lead by example, not through the use of military force.

That military might should be used in the defence of the principles of democracy and freedom, not as a blunt instrument to further the geo-political ambitions of power-crazed individuals.



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Message 17/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  03:01 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

BJT

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Yeah is that on topic for ya Jon?!?



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Message 18/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  05:17 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

influx

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NICE zazza

its so easy to bitch but to offer solutions, especially ones that SEEM (heh, on paper) so truly simple and effective..well...good on ya.

Jon...the arrogance of your ignorance is appalling. Yet another lemming who thinks everything is ok and the people in power got there due to their virtue and desire for good.

piss off



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Message 19/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  06:26 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

knowa

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zazza for president. thank you for spelling it out quite nicely.

"US intentionally created (bad thing) in order for (rich people) to reap the rewards with the (any company) shares."

this sounds farfetched to you? I mean, nobody can predict all the details, but if the arming of a dictator is profitable, he gets armed. if the destruction of his country is profitable, he gets bombed. I'm not sure I understand the confusion.



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Message 20/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  07:05 PM     Edit: 24-Mar-03  |  11:49 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Zazza

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ADD_FILE.TXT

Well, now it seems that that other hotbed of power-crazed loonies is at it.. the Russians are supplying the Iraqis with GPS jamming technology..

This makes the smart bombs dumb...

Could this be them getting their own back for the US supplying arms and money to resistance fighters in Afghanistan for all that time?

Personally I'm issuing a 'Brown Alert' which indicates that vast amounts of bullshit is heading our way from a number of obvious sources... and that all conscious beings should immediately duct tape our heads to prevent contamination..

Oh, and by the way, acording to Fox News, all peace protestors are 'anarchists'..?

Presumably for advocating the rule of law over the rule of military might...



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Message 21/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  07:22 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

influx

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something scary is happening. to be honest...I dont think theres much can be done about it with "rational" means.

Im frightened. honestly. and I think theres gonna be bloodshed



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Message 22/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  07:39 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

BJT

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What do you mean influx? Homeland or in northern iraq?



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Message 23/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  08:46 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

cheddar

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"'Brown Alert'"

fn funny, keep straight Z. Respects to your l-i-s-t-e-n-e-r-s



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Message 24/30                 Date: 24-Mar-03  @  09:11 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

influx

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homeland. since say...dunno...early 1900s Im convinced theres been a plan to gradually phase out the middle class, leaving only a subjugated poverty class and all these damn rich s runnin around.

you should see SoCal, man. ever and ever harder to afford just ing living

and these people...the ones with the power..Im quite certain that theyre determined to eliminate "undesirables"

AND on top of that, Im starting to feel like the only acceptable response to all this insanity is a violent one, enacted by those of us who are fed up with being pushed around



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Message 25/30                 Date: 25-Mar-03  @  12:29 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

X=0

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Egro USA  



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Message 26/30                 Date: 25-Mar-03  @  01:00 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

11/07/04

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Sadly I don't think theres much any of us can do to stop all this crap from happening. Bush called all the protesters around the world "a focus group". The democratic party "(the opposition party)" has pretty much laid down and died in this country For a lot of complex reasons. Even thought I have voted for third party candidates in every election in the last 20 years, NONE,I repeat, NONE, has every been elected. Although I think the democratic party is lame I am voting for them on 11/07/04. They may suck but at this point I would be happy to have ANYBODY in the white house besides GW Dickhead. Consider this also. If you don't like Bush now what do you think he will do during a second term when he doesn't have to worry about re-election. One thing you can Guarentee is that next election Bush will spend more on his Campaing that any president in history. So, who's he gonna have to payback in favors.



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Message 27/30                 Date: 25-Mar-03  @  01:50 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

nutoniom

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okie, stoopid naive idea time:

what if we wrote something that we'd send out to all the people we know, who know a lot of people and on and on and on...

something that would start like:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Cosmic Conscience entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.



oh, that's been done already, silly me.

they even have this part in it, funny, eh?

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

Happy Happy Happy

Wooohooohooo !!!



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Message 28/30                 Date: 25-Mar-03  @  07:08 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

11/07/04

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I might be wrong but it sounds a little like
"The Declaration of Independence" and the bill of rights. As far as I can tell they worked pretty well until politicians and judges started tampering with them. You might read "How I found Freedom in an unfree world" by Harry Browne. He has some interesting stuff on his website www.harrybrowne.org



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Message 29/30                 Date: 25-Mar-03  @  09:33 AM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

Zazza

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"The Declaration of Independence"? Wasn't that written by anarchists?



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Message 30/30                 Date: 25-Mar-03  @  02:24 PM   -   RE: One Iraqi-american & a bird

nutoniom

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dunno if he was an anarchist, but he's that same guy who wrote:

"We must be contented to amuse, when we cannot inform."

i'm pretty sure he wore a wig,too.



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