Original Message 1/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  05:13 AM   -   discussion over fire and beer

man called clay

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okay...for one...i never trust a man who doesn't drink a beer now and then.
ah...screw politics but we know bush couldn't handle his so he became a mad bible thumper and...now the avowed NEXT bomb and missile dropper...
talk about ancient enemies.....those who can't trust the honest swagger of the tongue versus the age-old rehtorical bs of greed in the guise of propriety.
hey psy! you told me!
now don't leave me hangin>

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Message 2/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  05:22 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

Jon

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Degreed (cum laude) from the University of Confusion.

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Message 3/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  05:23 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

man called clay

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ahh...but one of the few safe places to have such a conversation is in...well...not amerika!

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Message 4/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  05:26 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

man called clay

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can you imagine him being without chenie and his cohorts and phalanx of android guards and getting drunk with real dudes and listening to....whatever...cheap trick...snoop dog...grabbing his bible and proclaiming he wants daddy to burn us all?!?!?!
seriously...i'd love to toss a few with this great leader of men.

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Message 5/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  05:29 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

man called clay

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but reality suggests he has the upper hand...eh?
and why is this?

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Message 6/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  05:42 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

psylichon

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well i meant the god shit really, but since you mentioned it....

I just want America to stand up for something on a worldwide scale that will go down in history as changing global society for the better for once. Now, I'm not all with that "down with USA" shit because it's bullshit. It's the guys in charge and we all know it.

Just imagine the repercussions if America took an extremely strict no violence policy. Complete about-face. Overnight. The U.S. has unarguable influence in world diplomatic policies. It would be an unimaginable boost for world peace.

I'm not saying that Sadaam and Osama and whoever would just give up their nuclear arsenal because of our "naivety". No, they'd probably terrorize and bomb the shit out of us and many many many would die. Many more than 9/11 even. But is it worth saving the lives of those people to keep perpetuating the cycle of violence that has plagued humanity since the beginning? We took a wrong turn somewhere, made the wrong things our priorites, and violence resulted.... it's not natural, it's not right, and the U.S. at this point and time HAS to be the one to try and make it go away!

And after we're bombed and 100,000 people have died... then what? Invasion? I doubt it. \

This is the point where influx is laughing at my idealism. 'sokay  

If nothing else, it would draw a more distinct line between the moral right and the moral wrong (even though I don't ultimately believe in that either, but I'll talk about that further down the thread perhaps). Right now, the U.S. has Nukes that can reach damn near anyone in the world, and more of em, and more money and power to do something with them than anyone in the world. Kinda makes our hunt for "evil" seem rather silly. We need to take a more direct approach to being "right"

I usually proofread and edit and all that shit. I'm not going to in this thread. enjoy the raw....

psy

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Message 7/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  05:46 AM     Edit: 20-Feb-03  |  06:04 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

psylichon

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and bang, we're back on to god shit...


uh....


uh, hold on!

ok, one edit.... are we talking about god or bush now? LOL. perhaps we should have this discussion over a beer.  

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Message 8/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  09:18 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

cheddar

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Hurrah - we might actually be about to talk about it.

natural, symptoms and diseases

What is civilisation, when did 'right' become an absolute, who are 'they' in the global village?

If I have to get pissed about anzthing it is the repetitive nature of all of this. The semantics of any class of change are like new clothes on the same unwashed body, there is no ackowlwdgement of the benefit - to care, satisfaction, sustainability, etc etc and anz sort of moral scales - sorry western god figure.

If anything is excusable here it is the size of the pot being played for, even though 'once and for all' doesn't exist.

If we have space flight then this is a bit of a moral cleansing before the expansion, if not then we are seeing the queue forming at the waterhole.

As the US is currenlty the leading lady in this pensioners pantomine it has the most to loose and the historic capability to win win win, win what? well see 'once and for all' above

What is inexcusable is that this is a more obvious puppet and transparently poor (son of old puppet, plied to the form of the moulders seeking a figurehead/warhead!) and the strings being used are so old and the masses just move about placidly at the end of them, same as last time (new improved social levers!)


I suppose while I am here I could complain about the ratchet nature of existence and it's motivation, undeniable intepritation and through inference its conclusion in complete oppression

The tools change but we have nothing we didn't want,

Don't be fooled into paying attention to this experiemnt in global distraction, what about environment, privacy, corporate globals control, or like I said before, maybe all of this is not because of 'should' but because of 'can', or mazbe even the old ordinance question

Natural. Well how did the human race advance and evolve, what were the drivers and whoever thinks that these became unimportant when we started 'civilization' and caring for the genetically flawed needs to understand the historic nature of cascading systems, the water may change its direction of flow but uncannily it still goes top to bottom through the path of least resistance.

human beings are the disease, how much irreplaceable genetic and social diversity is being lost, how much resourvce is frittered supporting an unsustainable lifestyle - OLD JOKE, THe guy see the painter working super fast painting the wall and asks "What you working so fast for?" the painter replies "I am trying to finish before the paint runs out"

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Message 9/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  10:15 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

influx

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since Im so ubiquitous and need a life and a job and all that...

my only comment is...clay...you said its not safe to talk about this shit in "Amerika"

BULL

SHIT

do you REALIZE how truly free you are? Even amidst the nonsense...this is still the one place where you CAN talk shit. DRASTIC, CRAZY, OFFENSIVE, SUBVERSIVE

whatever. it all flies. that may change but as of now there are places where youd get SHOT for even whispering certain things.

this aint one of em.

not that I love the current state of our heh..nation-state..but...it gets a bit old hearing how OPPRESSED we are.

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Message 10/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  11:50 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

k

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I think there is one thing everyones overlooking - Osama's gang and the other nuts in the world have plenty of money - The US govt gang say there is a frightening terrorist uprising that requires this fanatical 'war on terror', (rather than it being just another USA 'war on something' like they've had all thru the last century to steer tax $'s into govt agencies) - Now if these nuts really WERE at war and all that then they would, and certainly COULD be blowing commercial airliners out of the sky on a weekly basis all over the world using cheap black market Surface to air handhelds... so how come all this terrorist activity has stopped?

If I was a top terrorist at least then I can guarantee my posse would have blown away loads of US civilian flights or US bound civilian flights - it'd be too easy.

So my question is, how come the terrorists have gone so quiet and dont attack?

that's why I think it's all a load of old crap.

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 11/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  01:04 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

nutoniom

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i just so wholeheartly agree with that kind of naivety, psy. i think we're due to spin out of the wheel of anguish. we have to stop as individuals, looking back in anger. amybe we can then reverse the cascade and have a fontain.

i know flat out utopic, but still, very tempting.

cheddar wrote:
"If we have space flight then this is a bit of a moral cleansing before the expansion, if not then we are seeing the queue forming at the waterhole"

allow me an analogy: when i was a kid, i did a lot of wild canoe camping in northern ontario. whenever we would leave a camping site, we'd make sure we brought back all our trash and ressuplied the firewood the people before us had left.

i think we're at that time now, and while we're at it, we could take some time to make a canoe that can actually go somewhere.

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Message 12/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  02:48 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

man called clay

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influx....i hear ya as to the freedom of speech bit.....but we're treading unexplored turf as we did
in the early eighties (reagan/bush) when a progressive bumper sticker could mean your windows bashed all over your baby-seats etc....all-fights...concert disruptions in mexican universities by black-hat wearing caballeros...i've seen plenty.
i'm not talking about mass demonstration or freedom to dissent on the net.....these are all good things and yes...they're being done daily.
anyway....there's sheer beauty in a site that encourages discussion of music AND politics as if they were part of an inseparable whole.

but back to god.
when did big-oil become the big preacher man of the house as well as judge/henchman/executioner/etc?

i wrote an article more than twenty years ago in a punk-zine i did>
it started by saying:
if god exists he is green and has three eyes.


last sentence:
for christ's blood we shall kill.


anyway....morality....fire....brimstone.
war's been delayed again til mid march.
enjoy.

psy's naivete is wisdom on a level which those who stand to profit can never manage to even hear.
and so they won't.

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Message 13/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  04:41 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

Pongoid

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ok, the once and for all thing...there are limited resources, and this is still a game of selection, but this time the traits are much more subtle than simply whether your nose is a certain shape or your skin a certain color. The traits are artificially created. They are things like who you know, and what you know. It's all a knowledge thing. It really is. If you know enough secrets, and know how to use them, you have power. That's the only power there is. The only reason why certain people are still alive is that others do not hold the secrets.

An example: If somebody held the secret of the home addresses and last names, and whereabouts of the family memebers of all of the secret security officers on duty at any one time guarding the president, he wouldn't live very long. That is a secret. Same with the cops. If you knew the chief's vices, and the aforementioned secrets of the above...you'd hold power over the cops, cuz all of a sudden, the cops lose their advantage, and a BIG vulnerability is exposed, cuz you know how to scare them, and only you hold the secret of where you are going to be, and they can't be everywhere at once.

The other thing is having the power to diperse the secret into the open if anything happens to you that you don't want to happen.


The Pope has power cuz he hold the secrets of the Vatican. So do others, in it, many even more so, but he holds quite a few.

I could go on for hours with examples, but this is the prize. In this case, it's the oil, and its currency value that are the secret, along with the military might, and hiding the truths from the troops who are doing the fighting to take and keep this resource. You think a soldier is going to fight and die if his superiors tell him that he's not going out to fight for what he believes in, but simply the greed of a few that want to stay in power? THAT's a secret.

Ok, enough telling of secrets, time for you to come up with some of your own.


Ape

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Message 14/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  06:42 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

formant

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k said:

"So my question is, how come the terrorists have gone so quiet and dont attack?

that's why I think it's all a load of old crap. "

ok i can think of 3 possible answers for your question...

1) there are no more terrorists

2) the terrorists are awaiting orders and its part of a larger strategery on the part of the terrorists cheifs

3) bushes plan is working and they are scared to do anything because they know he will come after them

i am sure there are more but your number 1 answer isn't looking like a candidate in my mind. i think its probably number 2.

any others out there?

as for the religious overtones of bush since 911 it doesn't bother me so much (samish religion) but you guys don't have room to bash him over the alcohol bit. as if each one of you don't struggle with addictions of some sort.

fyi between the catholics and the orthodox and anglicans there are probably 70% or more of all christians on the planet who enjoy a beer or liquor so its not the 'christian' bit, its the what was right to keep him from screwing up his life bit.

thats like making fun of a crack addict because he was strong enough to overcome his challenges and go straight, get a job, take care of his family etc.

jamey

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Message 15/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  07:49 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

moonunit

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"as if each one of you don't struggle with addictions of some sort"

i'd like to point out that i don't rule any super power of any sort.

thank you

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Message 16/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  07:54 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

formant

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so that excuses it then?

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Message 17/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  08:29 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

errata

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I'll agree with Jamie on the addiction thing. If you're in this culture there's something F+cked up about you... and our leaders are human... They can only do the best they can, just like the rest of us, and when their best isn't enough they'll get fired... (at least that's how it could be).

The terrorist thing,

There are terrorist's... I'd posit the unfashionable opinion that they're part of a greater plan to keep fear in the heart of the western world so that unreasonable behaviour is seen as OK. Fear is the running theme here...

You have power when people fear what you know...

Decisons are made by those afraid of what others might do...

Decision makers are supported by those afraid they may be hurt or have their lives altered in some significant way.

If you're smart you'll see that it's all about fear. And with that understanding those who desire to control and serve their personal interests will seek new and more efficient ways of generating fear. Even to such an extent that you might "sick the Dogs" on people to keep them in support of your selfish and immoral policies.

Who gained the most from 9-11? Who stands to gain the most from war in Iraq? Who gains the most from people being afraid? The answer is all the same...

e

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Message 18/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  08:46 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

influx

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ME!

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Message 19/38                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  08:55 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

moonunit

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it doesn't excuse anything, i'm just underlining the fact that i'm in no position to kill x thousands.



"i like to drink therefore i walk"


eerrr, i was born a -up dude. freelove

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Message 20/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  06:06 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

man called clay

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jamey....with the alcohol thing....what i was getting at is that we're dealing with a guy who had no self-control....he can't drink and have fun and chill after a day of hard work and go to bed and be reasonable the next day. it got in the way of things.....as such i believe this lack of self-control governs his apetite for power and...this equates with the power to control and/or destroy.
i'd never fault a man for cutting back on the drink....or even quitting entirely......but i do fault a man who'd quit so he might more effectively rule over others.
and i believe that's putting it mildly.

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Message 21/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  06:14 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

psylichon

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Brings up an interesting point.... is the Pres. of the USA allowed to drink at all?? I mean, at what time is it safe to allow substances to cloud your judgement when you're the 'leader of the free world'? Even on holidays? Anyone know the protocol?

psy

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Message 22/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  06:17 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

psylichon

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and has anyone else noticed a proliferation of the use of the word "nu'-kyu-lar" lately? I know it shouldn't piss me off so, but it does. The fuckin' president has gone and ruined a fine word, a word very prevalent to our times. Now fucking Jack Bauer on 24 (which, btw, is the best action drama miniseries/movie/series shit I've ever seen on television) is saying it. Keifer Sutherland is SMARTER than that! Bush is dumbing down America and I'm pissed off about it!!!!

Holy shit, I'm a right pissy bastard without weed. Pray for me.

psy

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Message 23/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  10:01 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

TWAT is getting old

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I stopped watching 24. Its bad enough being terrorized 24/7 in real life by news media propaganda let alone getting an extra dose by way of a fictional drama mimicking the same thing. I think Ill just turn off my tv until November 7th 2004. The terror won't end till Bush is gone. If he wins again I'm moving to the most remote part of the world I can find.

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Message 24/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  11:21 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

cheddar

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swithcing off your TV till 2004 would be more useful in soo many ways.

May hve said this before but I prefer people with small TV's

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Message 25/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  11:30 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

cheddar

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thinking about K words and the (rediculous) possibility that 9/11 may have been a custom order.

What are the similarities and dissimilarities between political leaders in power (.gov) and political leaders wanting power (ter/opp), I mean that apart from experience in weilding executive power they likely have similar minds and skills - so dealing would be easier as they are all on the same wavelength

Bollocks I know but still - If this is a war on terror - it is a pretty one sided affair

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Message 26/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  03:06 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

man called clay

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i quit watching tv nearly 4 years ago.
it makes space for better things....like real thought.
mozart or the latest dancetech tunes.
and even real discussion.
television is 1) anaesthitization>
2) misinformation (propoganda and fear-mongering).

the fact that al queda's attack served america in it's need to warrant further aggressions around the world (however quietly & untelevised)
doesn't discount the hole-in-the-ground it left in the middle of nyc.
bin laden wanted war and since he knew we were going into afghanistan anyway.....
why not hit first?

well.....
of course an informed public believes we were noble, innocent creatures violated by an evil-doer.
and sure...bin laden is a madman.
it is the nature of war and those who promote it.

he's had his feet in it for decades now.
it's not like it's any surprise for him.

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Message 27/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  04:22 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

k

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1) there are no more terrorists

well that's crap cos they didnt catch a single one did they!


2) the terrorists are awaiting orders and its part of a larger strategery on the part of the terrorists cheifs

again cobblers imo... what is stopping them, not anything, there's no ring of security thrown round all international airports even, anyone could drive up, choose a plane and blow it out of the sky with ease.

3) bushes plan is working and they are scared to do anything because they know he will come after them

rot! - see 1. - they didnt catch anyone so far - see 2, there is no security worth a wank on any international airport perimiter you can take down a plane at any point of the mile or so leading up to the runway from a back garden, a forest or any other type of cover.

I just cant beleive that they 'other side' is so innactive given the declaration of 'war' by USA on them... if anything you'd think they'd be pressing home for more kills.

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Message 28/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  06:27 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

psylichon

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Why hasn't Iraq petitioned the UN security council to start weapons inspections in the U.S.? They know we have em....  

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Message 29/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  06:34 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

errata

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What I can't believe is it is so far fetched for people of intelligence to even consider the 9-11 attack as a designed kick in the pants to get the public on the side of these RADICAL changes taking place in my country!

These bastards at the helm are not above it! Al Quaeda was developed and is lead by a gang of people trained and assisted by the US government. I know you well read bright eyed people don't need me to pint out that bin Laden's family and the Bush family are close! Jesus, the bin Ladens funded Our current president's two failed oil ventures in the 80's.

I'm not saying that the current US administration ordered the attacks, just that they MAY have been complicit in allowing them to happen. The former chief of the FBI resigned a week before the 9-11 incident over the Bush admin ordering him to stop investigating the bin Laden family. A private jet was allowed in the hours following the attack, to fly around the US picking up members of bin Laden's family and getting them out of the country (this was the only plane in the sky over the US for several hours due to a COMPLETE ban on air travel)... etc etc etc

I'm not accusing, just pointing out that it is NOT rediculous to suggest that these greedy, manipulative, immoral bastards aren't above it.

They did brazenly steal the presidential election in a country that is supposed to value it's democratic process above all else! Oh, wait, we're all over that now... because of the war on terror in fact! hmmmm

e

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Message 30/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  07:19 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

knowa

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word, errata. where'd you read about the private jet picking up the bin ladens? I believe anita hill.

"The two were clearly on the outs back during the Gulf War, when Cheney was Secretary of Defense, and the first President Bush dubbed Saddam "Hitler revisited." Then Cheney moved to the private sector and suddenly things between him and Saddam warmed up considerably. With Cheney in the CEO's seat, Halliburton helped Iraq reconstruct its war-torn oil industry with $73 million worth of equipment and services -- becoming Baghdad's biggest such supplier. Kinda nice how that worked out for the vice-president, really: oversee the destruction of an industry that you then profit from by rebuilding.

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Message 31/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  08:54 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

errata

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http://www.newsmax.com/showinside.shtml?a=2002/11/25/104443

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york091102.asp

my apologies, it would appear it was days after not hours, but still within the no fly time frame all around the country

e

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Message 32/38                 Date: 21-Feb-03  @  10:31 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

Conscience

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Man called clay - I think you need to learn a little about addiction - what it is and what it does. It goes FAR beyond self control.

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Message 33/38                 Date: 22-Feb-03  @  03:30 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

man called clay

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oh conscience tell me...i've talked to every known substance known. my only brother has done four felony convictions due to heroin speed etc.
i know what assiction is about....lack of self-control.
but do teach me whatever part i might be missing.

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Message 34/38                 Date: 22-Feb-03  @  04:51 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

man called clay

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typo unintended...i meant addiction

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Message 35/38                 Date: 22-Feb-03  @  08:19 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

Zazza

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Addiction is also about pain..

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Message 36/38                 Date: 22-Feb-03  @  12:05 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

man called clay

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pain...which brings us to birth...the original introduction to a world of it......astrology and the sign of cancer which governs two said combatants in this current wrestling match.
on and on....there's just so many angles to such analysis.....if only could provide release....wow...
imagine that.

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Message 37/38                 Date: 23-Feb-03  @  12:40 PM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

cheddar

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M C C, I think you missed out a few steps to get to the birth stage there

Addiction is recurring, slow ease through a negative (hence disorientation and susceptability to popularly termed 'diseases' of the mind). A matter of expression of genetics but probably endemic within populations and personalities.

The reason for mz comment here is that I have trouble believing politicians ;8-) (no surprises there) but i do have trouble with anyone exhibiting strong emotions on any subject (ie M C C's original mail on GWB stance on drink). Think about it, repression = expression, and how one leads to the other through time, the stronger the harder. All things are here I believe, between these 'opposites'

Cheddar in a box looking like a big old pair of stretchy emotion pants

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Message 38/38                 Date: 24-Feb-03  @  07:08 AM   -   RE: discussion over fire and beer

man called clay

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i think pongoid brought out a most interesting point about secrets.....probably the most important one made here.
since we're talking about clearly sober individuals' rights to anesthetize and clearly misinform people as to the root causes of our current dilemna.
we can get rid of saddam but how do we get rid of those who create such henchman if they're the ones running the show?
it's like krs-one said years ago....alan ginsberg....mailer....
hunter thompson......this ain't nothing new.
even guys like pat matheny suggested: this is not america.
oh well....it's a terrible mess....brought to you by those who gave us viet nam and jfk's assasination.
hey...where's KISS when you need THem?

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