Original Message 1/40                 Date: 10-Feb-03  @  06:39 PM   -   iraqi oil

formant

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came across this:

"At present, oil companies from France, Russia, and China have contracts to help develop Iraqi oil fields. Europe depends far more upon oil from Iraq than America (only a tiny fraction of U.S. oil comes from Iraq, about six percent). Oil from Iraq, indeed oil from the entire Middle East, ranks higher among European national interests than American. For some years, the United States has been moving to draw the preponderance of its oil from our own hemisphere, mostly from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela, and to cut back steadily on its use of Middle Eastern oil, to the level now of 26 percent of its annual. Europe is far more dependent on Iraqi oil, and far more involved with the Iraqi oil industry. I believe the U.S. should form a consortium of nations currently under contract to develop Iraq's oil fields, prominently including Italy, France, Russia, and China."

from http://www.nationalreview.com/novak/novak021003.asp

and my reason for posting it is to ask, if oil were not a factor, what would people say it would be?

its easy to say the US "wants the oil" but if we only get 6% from iraq and only 25% from the mideast in general it seems europe has a much larger interest in iraqi oil than the usa...

i am not trying to sway anyone one way or the other, just curious as to what the "2nd" reason would be...

should this be in the "bush is a *****" thread? :-)

jamey

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Message 2/40                 Date: 10-Feb-03  @  06:51 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

steef

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I thought we were only allowing Iraq to sell small quantities of oil at the moment to pay for mdeical supplies?

So under normal circumstances we'd be taking a lot more off them, right?

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Message 3/40                 Date: 10-Feb-03  @  07:03 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

formant

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i wouldn't think so if only 26% comes from the middle east altogether... that seems to be a strategic shift cuz the US oil was nearly all from the middle east in the past wasn't it?

jamey

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Message 4/40                 Date: 10-Feb-03  @  07:14 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

Conscience

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Actually, Saddam has been going around the sanctions with the help of the international community. Very little, if none, actually goes to the things that it should go to.

It appears that the US has been decreasing it's dependance on Middle Eastern oil for years, and I've seen the 26% figure in a number of places. It seems that the Bush administration is pushing less and less dependance on Middle Eastern oil.

However, the major suppliers aren't expected to be able to keep up with demand, though. The problems seems to be that the Middle East still has the VAST majority of the major oil fields, as well as a vast majority of their oil left. Venezuela and Russia have been flooding the market with crude in the last few years but within the next few years, they will have pumped their wells dry, leaving us in a similar place that we are in now.

The Bush administration is well aware of this, and while they are doing their best to avoid Middle Eastern oil, it's in the US's best interest to have a stable Middle East. Believe it or not, it is in the worlds best interest to have a stable middle east. The oil crisis in the 70's is likely to happen again, as soon as suppliers like Russia and Venezuela pump up all their oil. The problem is, if OPEC tries to do something like that now, they'll absolutely destroy their economy (what little of it is left), and most countries will end up in revolution, and the radical muslims will take over. It's not a pretty picture.

So yes Jamey, you are right, but that viewpoint is particularly shortsighted. With the current demand for oil as energy, the world will soon use up the cheap crude coming from alternate sources, and be forced to rely, yet again, on Middle Eastern oil. Not sure how many of you own homes, but the prospect of spending every single last penny to heat my house in the winter time is not attractive. I pray that Bush and his successors are serious about finding an alternative energy source. If you think oil is messy now, wait until the Arabs control the world market again...

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Message 5/40                 Date: 10-Feb-03  @  07:18 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

errata

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American oil companies sell their product all over the world. Look at the countries you listed that are more dependent than us on Iraqi oil... it's the same list of countries that is opposed to our invasion of Iraq!

It's not about "our" need to consume oil! It's not about traditional "social" govenrment issues. It's about huge multinational oil companies securing sound investment for the future... the US government is run by corporate interests, not social interests...

Remember, the current administration is populated by oil executives and lobbyists!

e

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Message 6/40                 Date: 10-Feb-03  @  08:44 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

formant

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my home is primarily heated by coal but i get your point :-)

we will all have hydrogen cars in the future tho, didn't you hear? ;-)

jamey

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Message 7/40                 Date: 10-Feb-03  @  09:44 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

Conscience

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Don't be surprised if a hydrogen car IS in your not so distant future.

Sure the Bush administration is run by a bunch of oil executives, but to be fair, they know how much oil is left in the world - there's a finite amount, and they can certainly read the writing on the wall. The reason the US imports so much oil is because our domestic resources are running out. And that whole ANWAR thing just prooved how little there is left.

Remember, too, that many of the mideast governments are supported by oil money. EVERYONE is ABSOLUTELY dependant on oil. And EVERYONES interests are in the Middle East because that's where most of the remaining oil is left.

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Message 8/40                 Date: 10-Feb-03  @  11:09 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

influx

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I just love how so many of you talk like you've got it all figured out.

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Message 9/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  12:08 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

formant

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i read this whole bit about how hydrogen is more energy intensive to create than the energy we get out of it etc and how it will never be a good source of fuel etc.

i am sure there are articles to the contrary.

it would have to do 90 mph and cost about the same as what i pay now, as well as have a decent infrastructure for fueling up before i would convert.

yes influx, everyone who bothers to post in this forum normally thinks they have it all figured out... thats what the forum is for, so we can all tell each other how we think it is :-)

jamey

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Message 10/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  04:15 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

influx

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ha. well isnt that special

and here I am thinkin that maybe i dont understand anything at all really.

out of the loop I guess.

I just meant...all these bedroom jockeys with their "here..the world works like this, and the parts that dont, should, so there"

give me a BREAK!

it aint that simple. NOTHING is

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Message 11/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  04:20 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

io

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who ever said it was simple ?

still, we can see trough the veil of lies that has beeen woven before our eyes.

the writting on the wall indeed...

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Message 12/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  04:21 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

io

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who ever said it was simple ?

still, we can see trough the veil of lies that has been woven before our eyes.

the writting on the wall ...

all bow to the glittering pie...

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Message 13/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  04:23 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

nutoniom

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fook, goes to show why you have to log in to spell check

sight...

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Message 14/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  05:24 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

influx

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Im starting to see more and more, but at the same time, I still dont claim to understand

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Message 15/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  07:12 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

BJT

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What's wrong with Ethanol, I still don't get it.
Its viable its renewable, there are plenty of cheap farmers to make it, its happening already in some parts of the world, its got a high octane rate but so does unleaded petrol. But its not as wizz bang as Hydrogen, Whats the deal?

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Message 16/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  07:48 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

monotuni

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"Im starting to see more and more, but at the same time, I still dont claim to understand"

neither do i. if i did, i'd be imprisoned. shhhh.... loose lips sink ships

boy, am i waiting to sink my ship into your lips

 

(not especialy directed at fluxie)

ps: steef send me your bro's e-mail :P

i am intoxicated, but then, i'm the variable

am i being too personnal ?

hits close to home ?

i live by the river too, you know.

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Message 17/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  12:31 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

cheddar

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Again I ask if it was always this obvious/disgusting (as i get older and realise familiar themes from history) or is it actually getting worse (like the coalition of proven methods to the masses over(opporessor2oppressor communications). Maybe a third way that it is all a natural process in the rise and fall of societies.

Is chaos prefferable to powerless subjugation

Is the end nigh?

bring out your dead

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Message 18/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  02:57 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

moonunit

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yes, it always been this obvious.

skulls and bones full my closet is of

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Message 19/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  03:43 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

Dominic

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There is 25 times more oil in Iraq than in the whole of the north sea. Its the best grade aswell. Me thinks Bush wants some. Maybe not right now but definately in the future.

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Message 20/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  04:47 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

knowa

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I agree with influx here in that I don't think many people outside the penatgon really know the motivation right now. not saying people shouldn't share and speculate. I think it's some combination of: (1) wagging the dog (how much do you hear about Enron these days?),(2) oil-related, (3) a pretext for decreased social spending, (4) things like http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0207-10.htm (5) a bunch of stuff none of us know a damn thing about.

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Message 21/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  05:08 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

k

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well, surely it doesnt matter wether the US imports more/less middle-east oil - isnt it about US corps controlling and selling that oil on? - it doesnt matter who the end user is they still will make shitloads of dosh innit?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 22/40                 Date: 11-Feb-03  @  07:11 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

influx

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true

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Message 23/40                 Date: 12-Feb-03  @  12:11 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

errata

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right on k, just what i said only more concise... no surprise there...hehehe

Although I've always suspected that it's got more to do with something less obvious. Some twisted backroom cabalistic type of Masonic order type business... if only because if it's as it appears than people are stupider than we think. I don't claim to get it, but I KNOW there's something to get, and too damn many people just buy the party line and push on through with this madness...

e

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Message 24/40                 Date: 12-Feb-03  @  07:50 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

hydro carbon

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The U.S. uses (20 million barrels of oil a day!) at that rate how long will it be before the world starts to run out. Guess who will have the largest remaining reserves as supplies begin to dwindle, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. These two countries are like Board Walk and Park Place on a Monopoly Board. There is oil in other countries, but extracting oil becomes progressively more expensive before it completely runs out. At that point alternative energy suddenly becomes cost effective. Unfortunately, short sighted people won't prepare for this until the last minute creating a world energy crisis and unecessary political tension and economic hardship for everyone as greed is paramount to the energy and oil companies.

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Message 25/40                 Date: 13-Feb-03  @  09:00 AM     Edit: 13-Feb-03  |  09:02 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

Zazza

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Notice how the Anglo's are lining up: 'US, UK, Australia'..

This whole shebang is about controlling the planet in the 21st century.. oil is part of that..
making sure the Anglo's have the WMD upper hand is another... protecting the Anglo owned global economy is another, think World Bank, IMF, International Patent Laws etc etc

I mean they are not even hiding this.. just read:

The Project for the New American Century

It sure as hell isn't about September 11th.. what happened to 'track Osama down'.. in fact he's probably more useful if he's out there stirring things up and providing the justification for the ongoing 'War against Things which get in our way'.

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Message 26/40                 Date: 13-Feb-03  @  09:07 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

Zazza

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O yeah, and get ready for 'secret arrests' America... Google search for Patriot II


By the way, at the March for Peace in the UK on saturday it is reckoned that there will be over a million people, the largest ever demonstration in the history of the UK.

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Message 27/40                 Date: 13-Feb-03  @  11:00 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

k

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'War against Things which get in our way'.

lol!!

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 28/40                 Date: 14-Feb-03  @  08:59 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

formant

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heres a good article detailing a few facts:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003053

france gets paid 4x market price to build a nuke reactor and other arms...

germany sells them the technology to deliver nuclear payloads at a high price

russia sells them rifles at 4x the price

etc etc etc

this article is by a guy who used to work for saddam and it was his job to hide WMD from people....

"My 20 years of work in Iraq's nuclear-weapons program and military industry were partly a training course in methods of deception and camouflage to keep the program secret. Given what I know about Saddam Hussein's commitment to developing and using weapons of mass destruction, the following two points are abundantly clear to me: First, the U.N. weapons inspectors will not find anything Saddam does not want them to find. Second, France, Germany, and to a degree, Russia, are opposed to U.S. military action in Iraq mainly because they maintain lucrative trade deals with Baghdad, many of which are arms-related. "

jamey

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Message 29/40                 Date: 14-Feb-03  @  09:20 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

formant

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how easy is it to hide WMD?

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/4

same dude.... used to have the job back in the day

jamey

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Message 30/40                 Date: 14-Feb-03  @  09:34 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

§ï†ÅR

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You never know with this stuff. But when you look at the present state of the political situation in Venezuela right now and the terrible economic conditions of that countrys' citizens, well there're all kinds of things that can be read into it about the cause of an oil producing country seeing it's citizens in deep poverty, or the timeliness of us going after Iraq. But who knows.

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Message 31/40                 Date: 14-Feb-03  @  11:49 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

Pongoid

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Ya know, there's something more to this that I don't believe I've seen mentioned, and that is the CURRENCY. Please don't be so fuckin naive to think that Europe is just protesting the war effort out of altruism, and humanitarian desires. See one of the things that one realises traveling quite a bit is that nothing is ever as it seems, especially in the media. Europe could actually give a shit about humanitarianism, but they don't. Not one bit. It's just another card to play to get something else that they want. Did France ever protest Stalin's massacre of his own people? Never heard Germany say too much about the gassing of the Kurds, and as for Russia...HAH! let's just leave that one aside for the moment.

Something that needs to be addressed here is the European nations' desire for the change in the denomination of OIL CURRENCY. It has been and remains for the moment: DOLLARS PER BARREL OF SWEET CRUDE. This is the denomination by which all oil is sold. From there it goes through conversions, exchanges, etc., but that is where it starts. The Europeans want to change that. Britain doesn't because it's not part of the EEC's banking system, and still uses Pounds Sterling. Just a quick note so make sure that you don't get suckered into thinking that the US is currently the ONLY Satan on the planet. We are not alone in the least. It doesn't mitigate the actions of the US government at all, but it does serve to remind us that one must be wary of anybody who would call themself "Leader" anywhere. Altruism is not in the nature of leadership. Not in economic, not in religious, not in military, none. Think about it. It's all about self interest for these nations' leaders, no matter what the messages they tell the press. Think about this hard, when casting judgement on who is right and wrong.

I'm not saying Yay War!! at all. I think the idea is appalling in this case, I just don't want this nations coming out as heros in the end either, because the real heroes are the folks that are willing to sacrifice their very lives in trying to stop this war. If Germany, France, or Russia are so opposed, let their Presidents/Prime Ministers walk the streets of Baghdad and stand upon the front lines when the US and its accomplices start throwing death around. Let their oil ministers, Energy Commissioners, and Secrataries of their respective Treasuries, State and Press accompany them in this as the bullets fly and the bombs drop. Then they may be regarded as heroes. Until then, it's just fucking spin, so don't buy any of it as anything but. When they put their asses where their mouths are, you'll see very clearly how much of their words they mean not to eat. Armchair warrior scumbag rat-fuck pieces of mange-ridden dogshit, all of them.


Ape

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Message 32/40                 Date: 15-Feb-03  @  01:51 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

milan

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hey, you know what... i went out and partied tonight... how about you guys? (ok, i can guess what ape did, but the rest of you?)

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Message 33/40                 Date: 15-Feb-03  @  02:12 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

psylichon

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Bottle of champagne, some veal, and a fatty. And now we go out  

I feel ya Ape... all the way, very fair assessment.

psy

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Message 34/40                 Date: 15-Feb-03  @  02:21 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

milan

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"Armchair warrior scumbag rat-fuck pieces of mange-ridden dogshit, all of them" indeed. i agree, no matter where they are from.

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Message 35/40                 Date: 15-Feb-03  @  10:41 AM   -   RE: iraqi oil

DT Regular

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That zazza bloke is on fry short of a happy meal

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Message 36/40                 Date: 15-Feb-03  @  12:39 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

Zazza

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DT Regular : 'That zazza bloke is on fry short of a happy meal '

Let me see; wit, relevance, incisiveness,.. you must be an american!

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Message 37/40                 Date: 15-Feb-03  @  12:45 PM     Edit: 15-Feb-03  |  12:49 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

Zazza

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Pongoid:

Yup, the French governments have their own agenda as does Germany and Russia, and the UK and the US and.. o rite.. everyone does..

The people on the streets in Europe tho are generally poeple who don't want their tax dollars spent on slaughtering innocent people...

We are supposed to be BETTER than Al Quaeda ... if we (UK/US) go into Iraq without UN mandate then we are worse, at least they're being honest when they say 'We want to kil the Great Satan'..

Hohum.. plus of course Osama and crew WANT the US/UK to go in, which they hope will cause the people of Egypt, Saudi Arabia etc to rise up, overthrow their own governments, throw out the US/UK troops and establish Islamic governments..

Way to go..

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Message 38/40                 Date: 16-Feb-03  @  02:25 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

Conscience

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There is a very interesting cover story on Business Week this week addressing what the US can do to ease their need for oil of ANY sort.

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Message 39/40                 Date: 18-Feb-03  @  10:57 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

Pongoid

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Zazza,
Who do you think trained Bin Laden and sent him on his happy way to do just what he's doing now?

Now please stop trying to paint the American sheeple as the villains, they're just doing what those in control program them to do. Waking up is not an easy thing to do for anybody, and let me tell you that the US has some amazing tools for keeping its people asleep.

It's a shame that folks anywhere are intent on killing the civilian population of another country, when it's usually just the political and economic leaders who have and create the differences. The more I travel, the less I see people in any one place having any sort of position of superiority, and more just folks trying to get by in the game of life, with the aforementioned exceptions.

Eat the RICH.


Ape

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Message 40/40                 Date: 20-Feb-03  @  09:45 PM     Edit: 20-Feb-03  |  09:46 PM   -   RE: iraqi oil

Zazza

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Pongoid...

The CIA paid the Pakistani secret service to fund anyone who would give the russians pain in afghanistan..

The Pakistanis decided they'd like a nice islamic afghanistan and so said they'd funnel the money and weapons into afghanistan ONLY if they got to choose who got the money and ONLY if the CIA agreed to stay OUT of afghanistan..

So the Pakistanis funded Osama etc,, and made the CIA look like fools..

Sort of poetic justice in there somewhere.. of particularly nasty sort.. the CIA tried to cause the Russians pain and the karma came right back at the WTC...

Same in Iraq... dance with the devil...

BTW, I've got nothing against the american people whatsoever, nor the iraqi people, nor the afghani people.. just the fuckwits who think that causing pain to anyone is going to put you in a better place..

Will they never learn?

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