Original Message 1/37                 Date: 14-Oct-02  @  03:10 PM   -   enlightenment?

Defector Z

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Okay - so with some elections coming up, of particular interest to me is the election for governor in my homestate of Taxachusetts, I decided it was time to check the candidates. Over the last couple of years here at DT, my awareness of the fundamental problems with our countries political situation has risen significantly. While still a supporter of my country and many of the positions it stands for, I have found myself increasingly abandoned by the mainstream parties. On many issues, I was represented by one party or the other, but as the years have gone by, the 2 major parties in the US have gotten closer and closer to each other. Kind of frightening. Not news to many of you here, but for me, changing my political views is a gradual process.

So this year I registered Libertarian, after voting for Nader last year. I'm not anti-big business, but I am anti-big business with its forays into politics. I also don't think zero state income tax is going to work either. So perhaps libertarian is not where it's at.

Soooo, my research came up with the green party. And this bit of information I found particularly interesting...

http://www.therealdifference.com/difference2.html

Perhaps I am Green, then? Jill Stein (candidate for governor in Taxachusetts) is on target, I think.

So for the other Americans around here, is there anyone willing to answer the questions "who are you voting for" and "why"?

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Message 2/37                 Date: 14-Oct-02  @  04:19 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

k

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kill 'em all I say! - wheres a good sniper when you need one!!?...

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 3/37                 Date: 14-Oct-02  @  04:41 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

Def Z

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One must go to the nations capital for those. Not here in Beantown...

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Message 4/37                 Date: 14-Oct-02  @  05:52 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

errata

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Aigh, there be a damned fine snipper roaming the wealthy suburbs of our nations White star! Proll'y well trained by our nation! Or a hunter from from the hinter. (Odd that it's there...)

I'm GREEN if I'm anything, Def. But I register independent. And I'd vote "none of the above" in most cases if the cowards would let me. But there's nothing in the constitution that allows for anarchy!

e

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Message 5/37                 Date: 14-Oct-02  @  06:09 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

milan

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i say,

do not ask what you can do for your country,

but what your country can do you for!

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Message 6/37                 Date: 14-Oct-02  @  09:02 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

xoxos

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that's a nice one, thanks milan.

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Message 7/37                 Date: 14-Oct-02  @  09:15 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

influx

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you guys didnt really just make jokes about a sniper who is offing innocent people did you?

children?

anyway...I vote green or libertarian, depending

green party is a bit too feminist sometimes, but libertarians lean too much toward the whole laissez faire thing...and I think business ought to be regulated (free market has caused WAY too many problems)

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Message 8/37                 Date: 14-Oct-02  @  11:52 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

k

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it's a sick world that's for sure.

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 9/37                 Date: 14-Oct-02  @  11:54 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

errata

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influx, I sure as hell didn't! Did it seem as though I did? I did use a light turn of phrase, but I was merely stating that I wouldn't be surprised if that sniper was Military trained. Alluding only to my distaste for these programs that make people into trained killers...

Not a joke at all.

e

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Message 10/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  01:11 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

Def Z

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As someone deeply involved in the daily operations of a small business, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that business long ago lost it's right to police itself. I will agree with you there mister Influx. I was leaning libertarian until I looked deeper than the headlines, and I don't think I could vote that direction. Pro-gun, no state income tax. I'm not sure I can support that. Green seems to be my voice.

Any other Americans? Important stuff here...

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Message 11/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  02:24 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

BJT

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Im not american but welldone Def. That green party looks the ticket.

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Message 12/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  09:03 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

Cheddar

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How much does it matter, the corp.s have the power.

OK I normally vote apathy - they are all the same wanting to hold the conch, professional politicians come in second oldest behind the pro's. MY PROBLEM is morality. These guys are our moral leaders yet they are deffinately the least morally strong, eg - they have a belief - perhaps it started their pilgrimage. So the fire is there, the choice of party may be open but probably (like faith) they move to tune of their upbringing AND (probably) toward parties already with power. What they do there? bend, bend their belief to the party line, loosing their moral position at the first vote, becomeing sheep to the whips.

Professional politician, relative advantage can be achieved (possibly more so) by reducing the competition than building the self.

I know I have to begin to understand that my 1 vote is exactly the same as everyone elses and makes a difference but still I think that they are corrupt, using increasingly eficient levers to manipulate toward... - that's where it gets too big for me to think about.

arrrgh can't do nothing must do something, for just 1 teeny vote. Research your vote when everything is spin, liars gambol in the fields, a system builds to divert us and replace bastions of honour

A BIG ONE. Bread and circuses, we have the most advanced circus development ever hedonism technologyvaleys full of it, enticing women queueing to fill it, - forgive me for saying but all of this is a diversion - not dfrom any 'true wayTM' but the difference between what you do in 1 night depending on weather you have a TV or not. The opporunities for tech entertainment to take the energy right out of you is HUGE man, - where is the social in that. Divide and rule, "Oh yeah JIm and I like to spend the evening together in front of the TV...Kids, no time really what with Jims job and my cats"


No 'true way, no true way, no true way" I am corrupt

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Message 13/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  09:50 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

influx

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its really fucking hard not to say "awww fuck it because I really DONT make a difference"

because the fact of the matter is...I DONT!

vote green, libertarian, anarchist...WHATEVER, and its not going to matter...because no matter how RIGHT any of em might be...no matter how fucking good the change they might bring to the country...theyll never get or STAY in office

errata...sorry..guess I misread. That sniper thing is a trip. At first...and yeah Im a bit sick...at first I was thinking "hmmm, maybe this person has an inside line on these people he is killing? Maybe they deserve it?"

but then...look at em. Kids? Old ladies? Old men mowing the lawn?

hard to comprehend

anyway..the voting thing..Ive done it the last few years just so I could say I did. I still dont fucking believe in it. Yet another smoke screen to keep us all feeling like we have any say

MONEY RUNS THIS COUNTRY. Always has, probably always will 

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Message 14/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  01:05 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

xoxos

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"Yet another smoke screen to keep us all feeling like we have any say"

not that i'm in favour of anything in particular, but ^ is probably a good thing where jim bob et al. are concerned.

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Message 15/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  03:55 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

knowa

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yeah I'm torn between a commitment to human potential and observations of it's absymal depravity.

to me voting only highlights how little control we have. democracy is a noble idea, and it's been reduced to mean "walk into a little booth and choose between two crooks (and a few other's predestined losers)". I vote for the losers anyway. usually green.

hey influx, what's "too feminist" about the greens? I'm not challenging you, just a question, like I'm wondering if some of their candidates have some kooky version of it.

word to Def Z.

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Message 16/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  05:25 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

pict

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Those that seek power should be barred from ever having it.I think the desire for power over the lives of others is the most consuming and negative of all desires.I think some of these guys start off with good intentions but especially in the case of politics good intentions pave the road to hell.In Glasgow they have this guy Tommy Sheridan who spouts a lot about socialism and corporate greed he's a member of the Scottish parliament but since his rise to prominence gone are the jeans,donkey jacket and Lenin cap and now he struts about in Armani suits that probably cost about as much as some of the people he represents earn in 6 months of course he does things like get arrested for protesting outside of nuclear bases etc but that is simply playing to his target audience and he milks his scheme background for all he's worth in order to legitimise himself with the poor who vote for him.He puts forward nice ideas like free school meals for all knowing full well that the ruling politicians will reject it and he gets to look like a good guy,politicians and domestic politics are really that basic.There are no political parties around that put forward a vision of a society that I would like to live in.I'm sure we all have different ideas of what Utopia would be like but surely it's possible to implement the basic elements of such a society to the satisfaction of the vast majority of us or is what we've got now as good as it gets?

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Message 17/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  06:00 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

errata

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I've always been a fan of the idea that we should nominate our prospective leaders from a pool of those who didn't ask for the job. A sure sign that someone is poorly suited to the task of leadership is that they had to ask for it!

I vote green because I vote my conscious! It's this pro football culture that has F*cked up democracy with this notion that you should only vote for a guy if he can WIN!!! Sad... The lesser of two evils will still screw up the system, your life and the lives of others.

e

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Message 18/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  08:50 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

xoxos

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i always rush home to see if the vote fairy left me 50p under the pillow after

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Message 19/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  09:40 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

99devils

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I don't vote along party lines. I will always vote for someone without a law degree over someone who has, except in the rare circumstance that that particular candidate is really fucked.

One thing that is exciting me this time is all 3 candidates running for Governer of New York have expressed interest in modifying the Rockefeller Drug Laws (20 year mandatory minimums for certain possession charges). One wants the repealed outright.

We have an even worse situation in Buffalo city government. The mayor has run unopposed since '94, and most of the council seats have been occupied by the same asses for 10 years or more, some as far back as 30 years. Did I mention Buffalo is almost bankrupt? Or that the population has dropped by about 300,000 people in the last 20 years? Or that there's no jobs? Or that we have some of the highest tax rates in the country here?

What floors me is, THESE PEOPLE GET RE-ELECTED!!!

Thank God I live in the 'burbs  

-Craig

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Message 20/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  10:15 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

Mindspawn

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I rarely vote cos I rarely care. Never did any good anyway. I do like errata's "none of the above" idea, though... Politicians (all of 'em) play with people's lives and livelihood in a fucked up system of checks and balances. All of which I find most distasteful. They do not "flow," they attempt to regulate the flow. Foolish mortals....

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Message 21/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  10:21 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

influx

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"hey influx, what's "too feminist" about the greens? I'm not challenging you, just a question, like I'm wondering if some of their candidates have some kooky version of it. "

no, nothing kooky. I just dont buy into half the shit. writing MORE laws to impose "balance"? Hell some of them might even use words like womyn and grrl...

sorry. turnoff

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Message 22/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  10:58 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

formant

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i normally place the way i vote in this order:

issues candidate stands for
character of candidate
political party of candidate

subscribing to a political party doesn't appeal to me (its the last thing i consider) but i am registered republican.

jamey

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Message 23/37                 Date: 15-Oct-02  @  10:59 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

errata

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it isn't as though I vote blindly for greens. Just that it seems to be where I fall most often.

e

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Message 24/37                 Date: 16-Oct-02  @  12:18 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

influx

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right.

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Message 25/37                 Date: 16-Oct-02  @  01:45 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

Def Z

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Sounds to me like there are some people who are justifying their commitment to inaction. Can we agree that one society is not going to be perfect for EVERYONE? Why not try to create one that fits most?

You can't please all the people all the time, but you can do your best. The green party certainly doesn't represent me perfectly, but they are a lot closer to my views than any other.

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Message 26/37                 Date: 16-Oct-02  @  02:24 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

GT

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i vote for those who vote for me

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Message 27/37                 Date: 16-Oct-02  @  09:34 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

cheddar

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My first (pony  economics teacher said "vote marginal". If you vote with the flow the party don't have to win your vote and the opposition knows they don't stand a chance so surprise surprise - no new swimming pools or theatre support for that constiuency - whether they voted for or against the winning gov

Second point is that we can never have coherency beyond the length of the term, no strategy longer then say 5 years. So only the first 4 years do anything (probably less) since new laws take years to get through and the last year is appeasement to catch voters. With countries with mid term elections the problems are worse. What is the right answer. Sorry but I think issue specific bodies which governments are answerable to at least allow for long term strategy - BUT current gov isn't going to give up power so they would be toothless - see Kyoto and many of the other treaties seem to be only fodder for compromise

answers. Change follows stimulus, if evolutionary principles can be applied to day to day change (if we ever change) then punctuated equilibrium decrees that only significant stress can effect change. Perhaps anarchy could be a fair play (is it moral to kill a monster - Theodore Sturgeon).

Question for the pampered bored. Do we actually want change?, Do we have any idea how frail our lives and lifestyle are, how much it costs (others) and what sort of sacrifice would be involved. "Hey, like it's terrible but now they want me to stop commuting with the SUV"

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Message 28/37                 Date: 16-Oct-02  @  10:09 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

influx

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yes. I do. I know it would require a lot of 'sacrifice' but...Id like to see it happen

thing is...the place where things really need to change is at the ultra-wealthy level. THEY are the ones with the acute case of gluttony

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Message 29/37                 Date: 16-Oct-02  @  11:31 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

xoxos

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but bless 'em, their hearts in the right place, right here in 'mericur. we're the peak, the peak! i tell you. we're everythnig else put together with all the worst parts left in i meant aken out.

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Message 30/37                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  09:10 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

cheddar

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finger pointing, Fire!

Whats that German word where you wish bad things to other people as a way of making yourselves feel better..?

"You can't handle the truth" (if that's the quote|-|)

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Message 31/37                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  09:42 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

milan

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schadensfreude

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Message 32/37                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  10:07 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

cheddar

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Cheers Milan, is that really the meaning of the word, and any ideas of other languages that have this word, or is it just the germaics that do this..-)

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Message 33/37                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  11:28 AM     Edit: 17-Oct-02  |  11:29 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

milan

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yes, it means precisely that: schade- damage, harm, etc... and freude- joy. eg, joy due to someones loss.

i´ve heard phrases in some other languages which mean this, but i know of no other -words- used to describe this so nicely  

oh btw cheddar, was it you who sent me an email some time ago?

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Message 34/37                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  11:32 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

cheddar's answering service

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yes,

you were sorry about something that was funny cos you thought / wanted? a thing which you thought wasn't true but I think it is. Mystery guest star

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Message 35/37                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  11:41 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

milan

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huh? you thought i was taking the piss out of you, whereas i thought it was you who was taking the piss, so then i thought it was due to you not being a native english speaker and now you wanna tell me you are? are you taking the piss mate?  

thats an awfull lot of yellow liquid in a single sentence!

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Message 36/37                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  11:55 AM   -   RE: enlightenment?

cheddar

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funny isn't it))

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Message 37/37                 Date: 17-Oct-02  @  08:37 PM   -   RE: enlightenment?

xoxos

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if i kick you in the nuts, well, i'm going to kick you in the nuts. you can sort it out for yourself.

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