Original Message 1/34                 Date: 11-Sep-02  @  07:37 AM   -   Horrible Newbie Questions

Mr. Seasme

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

Hyia!

I'm a horrible newbie, and I have questions.
I'm a long time electronic music fan, and ever since I went to my first rave, I have been very interested in mixing some of my own tracks. My problem was that I didn't know where to start. I kind of kicked the idea around for a while, and eventually grabbed "Techno Ejay" from a software store and installed it. The Ejay program is a lot of fun, but I can shake the feeling that assembling pre-recorded samples is a bit lame. I've put together a few songs, but I would really like to get out there and start making some real music. So, the horrible questions are:
What software should I use? (I saw a program with a well known Dj, who was assembling his songs with a computer)
Whenever I see Djs at a rave, they seem to have some hardware (turntables and such) up on stage with them. Do I need to buy a bunch of equipment to get out of the basement and record some decent stuff?
And if the above is true, what sort of things do I buy? I'm sure like everything else, certain kinds of equipment are better than others. Also, I work a low paying job, so I can't blow $1000 on speakers or something.

Well, thanks for reading and possibly responding!
Yours,
Mr. Seasme
"Is that a gun in your violin case, or are you just happy to see me?"

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 2/34                 Date: 11-Sep-02  @  08:04 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

honestly...for NOW...have a look at Orion or Reason

OR...theres always the old cheap hardware samplers

thing is..youre talking about two different things. Do you want to be a DJ (Play other peoples stuff on vinyl or whatever?) or actually write your own tracks?

bedroom productions can be and often are EVERY bit as good as any "pro" stuff..sometimes better!

basically you need:
a sampler (for using odd bits of sounds...drums...mangling other stuff)

a synthesizer or two...soft or hard...to make some cool sounds...

a sequencer to put it all together (do it all in digital audio and you can use plugins for fx)

effects...delay, reverb, other type stuff

its daunting at first...but thats why I say reason or Orion since they both have everything all rolled up into one

but...youd definitely want to go past them eventually as well!

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 3/34                 Date: 11-Sep-02  @  08:13 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

dj.dave

Posts: 4573

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

ditto. really recommend Reason for someone in your shoes. But like influx said, make sure you want to be a producer and not a DJ. Sometimes it's not fun being a producer.

psylichon

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 4/34                 Date: 11-Sep-02  @  08:41 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

the selecta

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

i say set your goals out to have some technic 1200's. Buy records of the music you like. Then learn about the different gear thats used to make that sort of music. Start cheapo samplers and software (reason). Research research! Integrate it all. But, It's important to start with inspiration. So many dislike the idea to not to buy music and play a few records to friends..damn , this gets yo bloodi flowing..it's all about inspiration my friend..buy records, start software(reason demo) etc etc.. use hi-fi system if u have too..for sound source.

Yeah know..1200s will cost ya. But they will last for years! invest! find ways..go naked..buy music and listen to no end..

peace

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 5/34                 Date: 11-Sep-02  @  10:38 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

you dont need 1200s to listen to records

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 6/34                 Date: 12-Sep-02  @  12:01 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

Mr. Seasme - computari

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

Hey, thanks everyone! I was reading the above posts and was about to ask what the deal was with the seperation of "DJ" and "PRODUCER". I then read this forum about why a guy gets made fun of for DJing with a laptop and no hardware. Weeeeelllll, Maybe if he was writing his own stuff and playing it with a laptop he would get more respect. It seems a lot like running Winamp to me.
I'm gonna go get me some good software! Thanks all.
Mr. Seasme

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 7/34                 Date: 12-Sep-02  @  12:39 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

I hate the word producer..but..you want to WRITE your own music?

and personally I dont see any diff between a laptop and records...as long as there is a human element involved somehow...

aww hell who knows

hey pongoid Im using your quote

"make art out of science not science out of art"

you better tell me now if it was you who thunk it up!

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 8/34                 Date: 12-Sep-02  @  06:53 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

Mr. Seasme

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

Call me crazy, but yeah, I would like to lay down the tracks that other people spin. Hell, I would spin them myself, but I tend to be the "Bull in a china closet" type, so I don't know if I'm smooth enough to play with all that stuff up on stage. If by "write your own" you mean down to the paper, no samples used by other people, "composer" style, I'm not that hardcore. I would really just like to be able to take the different parts that make up that pulsating euphoria that we call music, and assemble them in a way that strikes a chord with me, and hopefully listeners. Be the parts things I record, or bits I borrow from others who I respect. Maybe I got my concepts crossed, but thats what I want to do.
That's where the music comes from, does it not?

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 9/34                 Date: 12-Sep-02  @  11:09 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

I didnt ask you if you wanted to annotate scores, did I? 

I just meant the difference between composing and DJing...

whatevers clever. I would hope that you would want it to be as much yours as possible, bottom line, but the whole damn thing is based on sampling mostly, so pretty much anything is game

just. be. creative.

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 10/34                 Date: 13-Sep-02  @  01:39 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

bl_nd

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

if you are taking loops from your favorite records and arranging them together to make mixes and new songs, then you may want to consider sonic foundry's ACID ... i've seen many a dj buy that program and get working fast.

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 11/34                 Date: 13-Sep-02  @  12:48 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

Pongoid

Posts: 2003

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

Sampling? Pretty much based on sampling? Where the fuck have you been? Synthesis. A LOT is about synthesis. Sampling later, but synthesis is still the final frontier.



Ape

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 12/34                 Date: 13-Sep-02  @  06:13 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

TiC

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

is it really all that mysterius how we put tracks together damm i had no idea.
And there is a huge difference between playing records and making the music that is on them hence the big difference between a dj and a producer. And btw if u want to make remixes of loops and sounds u like from other peoples work then u will need to play from cd or lappy yourself cuz u will never get stuff like that out on vinyl unless u r a superstar dj or soemthing (or if u copyright and the guy who made the track). I have done some of that (taking out loops from other peoples tracks and remixing) myself did a techno set in reaktor with a modified version of the sixpack ensamble on my lappy with loops from techno that i liked (mostly swedish stuff from drumcode hybrid and some of my friends). A good place to start if u got no money is with one of the free programs out there like buzz,psycle,noistrecker mad tracker trust me i know a few people that have gotten tracks released that were made with only fasttracker 2 and nothing else (sounded really good to). And being a maker of music(or producer) is all about hard work and if u dont like to sit and work with a music programme for say 4 hours straigth u can just forget about it and start spinning records instead (that is hard work to migth i add just not in the same way)
And finally plz start by making your own tracks from scratch and then when u feel that u can put a decent track together u can start with incorporating other peoples stuff in your tracks.
My experience is that people that do it the other way around often end up using nothing but other peoples loops and not contributing with anything other than the structure of the music wich to me is not very original or constructive just makes everything sound the same and swamps the scene with a lot of mediocre same sounding tracks (cuz trust me the most producers who make these loops from scratch save all the best stuff for there own productions) and finally yes u can even program 70s sounding drumbreaks from scratch with practice and patience so if that is what u r into it is no exscuse for using loops from the start j
well good luck to u and i hope u get into producing music soon and have as much fun doing it as i have

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 13/34                 Date: 13-Sep-02  @  06:15 PM     Edit: 13-Sep-02  |  06:17 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

Mindspawn

Posts: 659

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

Synthesis is the "final frontier" AND it's also the best place to start your journey...IMHO. As far as what gets you "respect," well I make sounds. My synths respect me. What more is there....

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 14/34                 Date: 13-Sep-02  @  06:16 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

TiC

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

hmmm i think i was cencured in my last post well "(or if u copyright and the guy who made the track)." i can write nice then
or if u dont care about the copyright and the guy who made it

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 15/34                 Date: 13-Sep-02  @  10:37 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

"Where the fuck have you been? "

jesus pongoid, do you really have to talk to everyone like theyre fucking idiots who dont know SHIT and youre the only one that has a clue?

I say fuck off for that one, bud.

my fucking point was that electronic music...jungle..hip hop...is mainly based on sampling

SURE theres tons of groundbreaking synthesis being used, but the basis is and has been sampling for the most part. That is changing, of course, but

you really need to rethink the way you respond to people, my man

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 16/34                 Date: 14-Sep-02  @  12:09 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

Pongoid

Posts: 2003

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

Dude, you need to chill.

There was no electronic music before synthesis. Hip-hop may be sampled based, but drum'n'bass doesn't go real far without synthesis either, in fact I've I've heard completely synthesized d'n'b, with no samples, and it sounds great too. That's where original sounds come from. Synthesizers make the impossible into reality, mathematic perfection, made to convey feelings inexplicable otherwise. How can you even begin to just discount synthesis like that? Even a sampler is just a synth with a complex and versatile oscillator. Come on, bro. I think you're overreacting a bit here.


Ape

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 17/34                 Date: 14-Sep-02  @  01:15 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

errata

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

I'm with pongoid on the synth vs sampler bit. (Not getting involved with the personality part, that's on you guys)...

Samplers ARE synths that let you record and playback an oscillator. Synth's are where it's at for me. I use a sampler, but mostly to expand the voices of my synths or to throw in vocal phrazes and wierd bits of chatter... stuff I can't get from my analog mods... or to use drum hits that are not in my analog or rompler synths...

I think in the end it's those who PROGRAM synths exceptionaly that really move me...

e

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 18/34                 Date: 14-Sep-02  @  01:28 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

ok...sampler synth whatever I dont dig bein talked to like that

maybe YOU need to chill on that shit?

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 19/34                 Date: 14-Sep-02  @  01:58 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

k

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

the best thing to my mind is to start small and work at it... it used to be that people didnt just be able to get everything at once... trust me it's BETETR to just use a sampler or drumbox or VA-drums for your drums and other noises and hits, a midi sequencer and one or two monosynths or simple controllable synths and one multi-mode polysynth and a delay & reverb and just work on that so that you can play live with it... choosing bits for yourself to do 'live' like drop in/out, fx moves, live playing, etc and letting the rest sequence playback...

don't you think that get's you more into utilising the skills of composition or dropping in/out things and building with parts etc without having too much eyecandy to distract you??.... I really beleive firmly that basic simplicity is so important to hone a flexible creative talent. Like a good song can be played on a guitar right?

ok but produced for an album it's worked on but it still works as a basic guitar & vocal song. That kinda vibe. plus it's those who get out there that make a name for themselves.

however, you CAN still do that with the s/w i guess... it's a hard choice wether to go live or bedroom only.

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 20/34                 Date: 14-Sep-02  @  02:10 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

selecta

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

*pops his head in*

I don't think synths were around before the therimin. So perhaps some modification to the facts on electronic music.

I found my best sounds by sampling from wonderful miked-up analog elements. Converted these sounds/edited/layered/preamped directly to my sampler and wham-o 12bit digital samples!

Ther's so many ways to go about processing. If i was to sample my synths and collect sounds..then its called sample synthesis vs. sampling..vs..synthesis. It's still a process to modifying a sound no matter what way u go about it...i think..

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 21/34                 Date: 14-Sep-02  @  03:02 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

yeah..and I was thinking...the sampling I was talking about...mainly drums...altho hiphop used to be largely based on samples

the reason pongoid takes offense to my statement is because he prides himself on making his own sounds...which is perfectly legit.

basic point is probably just do your best to avoid taking the 'easy' way out and using prefabs

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 22/34                 Date: 14-Sep-02  @  06:02 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

damballah

Posts: 1675

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

yeah yeah yeah, more than one way to skin a cat. some styles aren't so synthy, matter of figuring out what to do to get those sounds out that are rattling around your brainpan.

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 23/34                 Date: 14-Sep-02  @  07:27 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

Mr. Seasme

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

Wow, this forum has got the voices now, baby.
It's really impressive what a great community you folks have here. I really didn't expect to get such a huge reply, and I'm thankful. So, just to get my own headware sorted, let me call a vote:

Is grabbing bit o' software with an electronic synth/sampler and all that jazz the way for a newbie to start, or should I honor the ancient ways and grab a hardware synth and sampler(all personal preferences aside, I'd have to learn to use either better than I know how to now) and all the other gear that I'd need. Oh, and to clear up something I think I misstated, I'm usually all about using my own sounds. Everyone probably feels this way, but when I'm using some software that comes with "1000 professionally recorded techno samples", I get pissed because 9 times out of 10, whomever recorded the samples put some beat in there somewhere that I hate, and it's a lot more work to edit that and then get it to flow again, than it is to just make a new one with whatever synth instrument I need.

No offense to the brave people who record things for the "ejay"s, but some of those sounds are a little wacky. I'll grab a set of basslines, and string them together, only to play them back, and feel like I'm sitting in the street cranking an organ-grinder.

-Seasme & his pet monkey

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 24/34                 Date: 14-Sep-02  @  10:44 AM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

TIC

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

well actually it all comes down to personal preference in the end sooooo but here are my two cents anyway.
If u r serious about this stuff then either get a yamaha A-series sampler(a5000 has absolutly no need for external efx or mixing unless your standards are really high in wich case he never would have asked the question) and something to controll that with (simple midi sequenser will do i use cubasis vst and a RM1X for that) or if u want to go the soft route and buy Kontakt and a sequnser that works well with it
I would personally recomend u getting the Kontakt package since it really gets u everything u need to get started and holds an incredible potential yet still being easy to wrap your head around and get started with (loooadsa presets that kick serious ass)

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 25/34                 Date: 14-Sep-02  @  12:02 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

tell you what. one synth, one sampler

and a sequencer

thatll sort you out. expand to taste.

honestly..software holds way more bang for the buck right nwo

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 26/34                 Date: 14-Sep-02  @  03:11 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

xoxos

Posts: 6231

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

nwo

give it all away, infux!

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 27/34                 Date: 14-Sep-02  @  08:21 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

sorry. that would be NOW

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 28/34                 Date: 15-Sep-02  @  05:51 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

bedwyr

Posts: 2890

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

I started with just a sampler (yamaha a3000) and an atari with cubase. The sampler taught me about envelopes, filters, lfos, I used to do more synthesis with that coz i only had one toy to play with. Now it's all software based and I've got lots of toys, I hardly do any synthesis. (but that's my lazy arse)

If you get one synth with lots of patching options then you'll be expanding your opportunities and honing a personal sound without getting into the more is better nonsense. So I vote influx, it's the three s's all the way.

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 29/34                 Date: 15-Sep-02  @  09:48 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

milan

Posts: 5701

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

yup. one patchable synth, one programmable sampler, and one good sequencer.

then learn that and dont get lost between million free softsynths loaded with presets!

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 30/34                 Date: 15-Sep-02  @  10:18 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

Mr. Seasme

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

Wow! This is great stuff. Now I'll just have to find some kind of searchable resource to get info about different equipment in the dance scene. Some website maybe. Something about Dance Technology. I dunno where I could possibly find something of that nature.

Heh.

Thanks again folks. As soon as I get a solid track layed down, I'll post it up, and let the masters sort through it.

"Voked Voked get revoked, I got revoked..."

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 31/34                 Date: 15-Sep-02  @  10:36 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

got a little cash?

Virus KB $1000

yammy RM1x $450

Yammy A4000 or say Emu E5000 ultra $600-$700

mackie 1604vlz $500


of course youll need some speakers and some FX but the yamaha FX are pretty damn good and the virus sounds good on its own..

this is actually more than you would really need but this setup would keep you going for a LONG time

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 32/34                 Date: 15-Sep-02  @  10:38 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

got a little cash?

Virus KB $1000

yammy RM1x $450

Yammy A4000 or say Emu E5000 ultra $600-$700

mackie 1604vlz $500


of course youll need some speakers and some FX but the yamaha FX are pretty damn good and the virus sounds good on its own..

this is actually more than you would really need but this setup would keep you going for a LONG time

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 33/34                 Date: 15-Sep-02  @  11:06 PM     Edit: 15-Sep-02  |  11:07 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

milan

Posts: 5701

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

or if you´re on a smaller budget: fast PC, s/w sequncer (logic/cubase/sonar), s/w sampler (exs24/halion/kontakt), multi i/o card, and one good external synth.

that will give you sampling, synthesis, and -tight- midi timing, plus better fx than with one or two budget h/w units.

i guess what influx suggested is better for live stuff, but with sw/hw combo you can get into better production. of course, if you´re only starting out, then you might not wanna get caught up in matters of eq/compression/etc right from beginning.

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 34/34                 Date: 10-Oct-02  @  04:07 PM   -   RE: Horrible Newbie Questions

Paleface

Posts: 215

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

One thing no-one's said yet (or not in these words):

TRY STUFF OUT.

IE: Download the demos. That'll let you see what software's like, you can buy the full version if it's good. Also: go to your local pro-music store, if you have one. Ask to try stuff out. It took me a while to realise what I really wanted was a hardware sequencer, and it took me forty-five minutes of fiddling with an RM1x before I realised a) I really NEEDED it and b) we were going to get on VERY well. Don't buy stuff blind - you'd never buy a car without test driving it, would you?

My suggest of a hardware beginner set up would be (all secondhand): Rm1x, S2000, A-Station, TC m300, 12-2 mixer of some form, and some keys. If you're really canny, in the UK, you could get that lot for not much more than £1000 s/h. Hell, it's almost what I have. And I'm still torn between the obvious hardware-synth thing, or just getting Reason.

[ back to forum ]               [quote]