Original Message 1/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  12:00 PM   -   graphic eq on final mix?

chroma

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right...so i was at this party saturday night, i played my cd and all the ladies thought i was wonderful and "very talented" but something about the mix bothered me. the bass and high end were adequate but most of the details which reside in the mid range were buried. f*ck if i knew where to find the eq controls...

anyway would i ruin anything by running it through a graphic eq (soundforge)? just to sort of nudge it to where i want, nothing drastic...

please dont say "mix it again"

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Message 2/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  01:23 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

Pongoid

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why not stick it in wavelab to listen, plug in a parametric, and get really precise, then do the actual rendering in SoundForge. You could also remix it again, eq'in each individual sound correctly. What's one more mix? As time goes on, you may have to mix some pieces or passages over a THOUSAND times to get it right. Sometimes it just works out like that. That's how you grow, and what will make your next mix sound better. Good luck.


Ape

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Message 3/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  01:37 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

damballah

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right, parametric better.

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Message 4/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  02:41 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

xoxos

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all 'ladies' care about is bass, chroma  

heh.. 'ladies..' instructions right on the front.

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Message 5/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  03:37 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

j-type

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graphic for quick 'n' dirty non-critical fixes, (i.e. live), otherwise the detailed control and generally superior audio quality of a parametric is the way to go

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Message 6/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  03:40 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

k

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it's never going to sound the same everywhere it is played - dont go and change it just cos in ONE venue it sounded mid-lite - mebbe at another venue it'll be mid-heavey or bass-lite

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 7/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  04:13 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

damballah

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give it to someone else to master for you, someone who hasn't listened to it a billion times already.

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Message 8/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  06:09 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

Brett

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waves rcl with kneeless opto but raise the ratio up to 1.75, bring the threshold down until gain reduction = -6db, then spektral design spektralizer, timeworks mastering eq, and finally the L1 limiter. this my mastering chain on most material.

the trick with mastering eq is to make subtle changes.

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Message 9/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  08:16 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

boo_meister

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If you really want to be a master at mastering, invest in either a DBX Quantum or a TC electronics Finalizer. I chose a Quantum because it has more compressor bands, but many prefer the Finalizer. Expensive, but well worth it.

You can then compress/limit/gate the whole mix and adjust eq, use tape saturation emulation to warm it up and colour the sound all with nice dithering algorithms. My Quantum really adds warmth and sparkle to a mix.

Many people leave it to the master engineer to get their work as tight as possible, but you could master it yourself and send them both versions of the track (Mastered and Unmastered).

Undoubtedly they would probably use the unmastered version, but if they allow you to sit in on the mastering session, or if not, at least ASK them what adjustments they made afterwards, you can learn from them and apply it to your next master - Hopefully, they'll one day adjust less and less until they don't touch it at all.

In the end, I'd love to be able to send a master straight to the Dup house without anybody touching it. Unrealistic maybe, but total control is what I'm all about, dammit!

 

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Message 10/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  09:12 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

damballah

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yeah, right. bob ludwig's sitting around with a pair of event monitors and a finalizer.

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Message 11/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  09:35 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

influx

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hehe.

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Message 12/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  09:48 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

99devils

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T-Racks. Spend the extra $1k on weed  

-Craig

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Message 13/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  10:22 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

k

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iheardat!

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 14/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  10:34 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

boo_meister

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One time, whiteee!

Look, it's Damballah! He makes IDM and world Beats! Quite possibly electronica, too! Are you a white bwoy, damballah?

You'd be surprised how many places use the finalizer. Then again, you'd probably show up and pick everything they say apart until they smack you in the gob double quick.

;)

Use what ya like, I don't care.

Event monitors. Hmmmmm.

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Message 15/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  11:10 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

influx

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if someone uses "just" a finalizer and calls themselves a mastering engineer they are just plain full of SHIT

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Message 16/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  11:50 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

damballah

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"master of mastering"? whatever.

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Message 17/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  11:53 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

boo_meister

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Who said "just" a finalizer? I know a lot of master engineers definately use a finalizer in conjunction with other gear and by me visiting a mastering house, it would let me in on what else they are really using and doing wouldn't it? Maybe you can fill me in, eh Influx?

And maybe all the other REAL mastering gear is WAY above what I'd want to pay, but I'd definately like to have full control one day. As I've said, this is probably totally unrealistic, but whatever. It's a dream, innit? If this saddens or (or like everything else seems to) maddens you, I'm so, so sorry. Damn man, I hope I don't meet you in real life! Are you as angry and argumentative in real life, or is it just your message board persona? Ya need to chill a little bit or summink.

I'm pretty damn sure that NO mastering engineer is using T-Racks, though.

Maybe I'm wrong though, eh Fluxieeee?

Bottom line is, do what you want and with whatever. If your mix sounds like shit, it'll probably still sound like shit afterwards, albeit a little more chocolatey.

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Message 18/40                 Date: 20-May-02  @  11:55 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

boo_meister

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Master of flat-sounding, 'paint by numbers' 'dub'?

...whatever.

:D

Sorry man, had to listen after ya give me static over just about everything.

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Message 19/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  12:04 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

boo_meister

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Maybe by saying 'master of mastering' was totally O.T.T, but it wasn't suposed to be taken literally. Maybe it's naive to think that any one box solution is going to work totally, but both those boxes are good starts.

...But you just take pleasure in shooting whatever is said down in flames in an angry adolescent way, so it doesn't really matter, does it?

 

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Message 20/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  12:15 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

damballah

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adolescent quite possibly. but angry? not a bit.

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Message 21/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  12:17 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

boo_meister

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Well, if you're not angry, for god sake stay that way. Too many angry little munchkins online, anyhow.

Have a good day.

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Message 22/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  01:06 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

influx

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my man, what the hell are you talking about?

I didnt say jack except that someone who uses a finalizer as their sole "mastering" tool is really kinda missing the point..

maybe in conjunction with other gear. dunno.

not quite sure why youre trying to talk shit to me directly, but..hey..its all good. You can flap your gums all day long, and call me stupid names all you want.

and you DID say "if you want to be a master at masterint get a quantuum or Finalizer"

that is just utter nonsense.

oh..and my mixes sound FINE thank you. Before AND after.

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Message 23/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  01:09 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

influx

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I just re-read all this crap and I still cant see where you decided to look at me.

just...don't, ok? don't start talking shit, don't insinuate anything about my age, experience level, or ANYTHING, aight?

"white boy"

yes.

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Message 24/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  01:12 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

influx

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oh, and you MIGHT want to be careful slingin that "paint by numbers" shit around based on the ONE track you have to back it up.

(which..btw...I DID like, and still think it sounds good but you aint no pathfinder groundbreakin genre-defying phenom either so just put that shit away with the weak attempts at personal attacks, ok?)

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Message 25/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  01:36 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

boo_meister

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79% of that wasn't even aimed at you influx. I can tell that you know what you're talking about because of the way your work sounds.

When dambalah always turns up and gets pissy on me NO MATTER what has been said, then I get upset and go find some dirt to see if he's actually worth arguing with.

So, I said some stupid shit that got jumped on and another thread goes shitwards. Damn. At least it's stopped raining.

Sorry chroma!

 

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Message 26/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  01:51 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

xoxos

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bad day boo?  

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Message 27/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  01:53 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

influx

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hehe. I came back to edit what I had said cuz theres no point...but I wasnt logged in for the first ones...

as for D..well...I'd like to offer the possibility that maybe he DOES know what he's talking about?

and...that he has more experience with this stuff than most of us here? AND that, maybe, you havent listened to some other 'artists' he has 'influenced' like Guards of Magog (Electro/Breaks), or DJ Consuelo (hehe...defies definition), or Bass Pro Shops (blippy bloopy speedbass?)

so...yeah..lets all take a breath and calm down 

so..chroma...you did say something about liking the mix, but then you DIDNT like it at the party?

DONT go "fix" it because of that!!!!! Graphic EQs are good for that sort of thing..youre in a venue and you want more 100hz on the system or whatever...but do NOT change your mix drastically just because it sounded different somewhere

it will NEVER sound the same across the board..just impossible to do

best thing is the age-old comparison, where you just get your mix done and go and check it on as many systems as possible and strive for the best balance.

but..if youre mixing for a club...then you want it to sound best on a club system, or if youre mixing for home listening, then you want to try to hear in on a couple different systems..boom box...car...maybe an audiophile's listening station?

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Message 28/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  01:54 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

influx

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oh..and...yeah...I do still like your track even with the annoying 4 on the floor kick drum 

I suspect that it would do well on vinyl!

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Message 29/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  02:12 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

boo_meister

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Bad day?? It's monday! How can it NOT be a bad day??  

Glad we're back on topic, though!

:D

Influx never fails to astound me. Sometimes, I think he's the devil and then he turns out to actually be Jesus with a devil mask, and then he takes of the mask and he's the devil again. Gotta love it, though.  

But I DO think dambalah is a bit mean and follows me around and stuff. Maybe I'm just paranoid? Shouldn't bring knives to a gunfight, though eh? Not very Irie, is it?

Well, Hurrah!

 

...It all ended up ok in the end, didn't it kids?

Yeah, listen to the mix absolutely everywhere. In the car, in a boom box, on headphones, on a computer, on a sound system, In your friends 400 watt Car Stereo. A good mix should sound good almost everywhere. If you hear a weakness in the mix on MOST systems, then it's probably best to fix the actual mix on a per track basis, rather than eq-ing the whole thing, but I'm probably wrong.


Thanks for being honest Influx. My tracks OK, has had some interest, but I've decided to bury it. It's not what I want to sound like anymore.


I'd better not post here again.


 

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Message 30/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  03:06 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

influx

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my point was that Damballah really isnt mean..just even less tolerant than I am...

me? Devil? For what?

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Message 31/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  03:07 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

chroma

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so will the gentlemen be staying for lunch then???

i just figured that since my initial instinct was to just tweak it slightly with the stereo's graphic eq that that was the way to go...i notice though that my mixes generally sound like that, must be my lack of good monitors. the music that was playing before i popped my cd in was this indian/electronic hybrid thing with violins, flutes and a dominant pulse wave bass

i must say that parametric eqs i dont really have a handle on; i do use it on individual tracks but for the whole mix...

ok off to try parametric, in sound forge cause thats all i have...if it doesnt work out ill just mix again...thanks boys!

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Message 32/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  03:13 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

influx

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but youre still basing this all on one experience with ONE system?

I dont like that very much. nope.

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Message 33/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  09:54 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

bedwyr

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you tell 'im, influx.

chroma, you really do have to try it out on different speakers. lots of them. don't go tweaking just on what you hear on one set. i think the ladies' reaction says it all. most people don't give a shit what it sounds like. they like a good tune and/or a good beat.

there. now i told him to, too.

oh, and the midrange is always the hardest to get right. we're all very experienced at listening to mid range, so any fuck ups are easily larry heard.

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Message 34/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  11:51 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

k

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oh one thing... my favourite speakers (which I can't use now in this apartment for fear of the building collapsing frankly), well... those speakers are old... and they have a 8" midranghe speaker in them and they emphasise midrange, meaning you tend to drop the mid a tad when mixing... well tracks mixed on THOSE tend to sound fantastic in clubs and large venues, perhaps cos you can only mix with them REAL loud. They have to be driven to a certain level like all speakers before they are properly reproducing their relative frequencies.

some people use speakers that are too big for their setup and they are always mixing at low volume where the speaker isnt being driven hard enuff.

I guess idealy you eant a dat and a 1/3 octave 31 band graphic... go to the venue, play the dat, tweak it with the graphic, checkout what you had to tweak.

but that's in an ideal world

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 35/40                 Date: 21-May-02  @  03:15 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

Brett

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mastering engineers ususally use apogee converters,avalon eq's ad2077 I think?($12k each) , empirical labs, manley, weiss etc etc, and go down to two inch studer tape decks that have all kinds of high end mods. Never read the kit list of a good master house and seen finalizer in it. Many mix engineers use them to get demos sounding good. I read that bands use them live and in the studio, like Marilyn Manson. I had thought of using a powercore in wavelab. I think that would yeild much better results because of the environment and rendering ability. But shit, these plug-ins do the same damn thing as a finalizer. Waves LI and RCL are sweet, and the timeworks eq is great.

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Message 36/40                 Date: 22-May-02  @  06:04 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

chroma

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ok ok...me go listen on a few more systems. its
just easy to think the problem is with my mix
since i'm monitoring on a consumer-level sony
system. i have tried it out on a few other systems
though, generally the mix sounds good when its
playing off a system as crap as mine

ok now i use my ears...

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Message 37/40                 Date: 23-May-02  @  12:17 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

Pongoid

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I'll tell you one thing right now; any of those tools, even the finalizer wit FUCK YOUR MIX UP badly if you don't know what you are doing, even if the piece has wizards in it. Less is more and you HAVE to use your ears. Don't try to pollish a turd, do it right from the start.

Ape

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Message 38/40                 Date: 23-May-02  @  04:17 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

k

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that's a good point - newbies pile in with a mix then 'master' it to using web tutorials which are designed as general guides - then they listen and say 'it doesnt sound pro' - well I guess if it was simply a matter of owning the gear, everyone would be a pro right! -

FIRST GET YOUR MIXES SOUNDING RIGHT FROM THE PACKET, NO MASTERING OR ANYTHING - in fact a good excercise is to do mixes with no effects at all, just eq & levels... learn your trade.

You FIRST learn eq & level mixing, adding fx will only HIDE problems... adding mastering makes it 100 times worse and you'll never identify the problem once youve hidden it in layers of fx and mastering processors.

start with the basic's... work on that.

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Message 39/40                 Date: 23-May-02  @  10:08 PM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

Brett

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true about hiding problems. I was working with this guy who mae tracks that souded cool, but I would always notice littel anomolies that made it sound off, and whn i turned the reverbs and stuff off the sound was not working at all. He would try and make soudns out of the reverb and end up with uncontrolable things. that only sounded decent when masked by tons of fx. We had to work on synth programing before I could do anything with his songs. He's gotten pretty damn good since he realized what he was doing wrong. Now he mixes dry and adds fx last. It's what I generally do.

also boosting can add unwanted phase shifts and distorion. The new waves eq is supposed to prevent phase shifiting. When I master somthing it sounds good, louder and leveled, but it looses a lot of the clarity and imiging. Using these plugs does degrade the sound quite a bit, and on a mix done with all softsynths , you can't afford to lose and thing. So for demo's I do it but would never actually try and pass my own mastering off as pro. I get a kick out of Craig Anderton doing mastering for big Labels' smaller artists. He uses Wavlab and Waves stuff. I bet he gets it nice, but I bet there is no way those masters could hold their own with anything done with higher end systems like wiess digital eq's and compressors, or the analog stuff we alreay discussed. The plug-ins add so much noise into the song and after a few processed it becomes grainy sounding like mp3. The finalizer is no diferant.

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Message 40/40                 Date: 24-May-02  @  06:31 AM   -   RE: graphic eq on final mix?

Pongoid

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It's funny that you mention that about starting dry, because I almost always do that and never really thought about it until now. Just levels, sounds that work with each other in relation to the EQ jigsaw puzzle, and movement in a groove, then comes the dashes of flavor like effects, and tricks, and even then, it's only a bit. A lot of my buddies say I have a really raw sound that they like. Maybe that's why. Huh. Thanks for the wake-up.

Ape

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