Original Message 1/32                 Date: 05-Mar-02  @  06:06 AM   -   eastern scales

Brett B

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i posted this up a while back and didn't really get much help. I love Indian music and have read about 7 tone scales and eastern modal scales. How do i take a song done in C and transpose it to this style I am just using c for simplicity. Coletrane played some crazy eastern modal scales . First what is a modal scale, and how do I determine one for a specific Key I am in, and secondly do it in an eastern way. I am familiar with the 8 basic Maj and Min scales C-B.

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Message 2/32                 Date: 05-Mar-02  @  08:09 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

bedwyr

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i just did a search on google for music scales, and there is a wealth of information out there.

basically, and this is probably not a 'proper' definition, but you get the modal scales by playing the notes of say cmajor but starting on different notes, d for dorian which is used a lot in jazz, e for phrygian, which sounds a bit spanish.

modes are generally concerned with melody, it's how ppl wrote tunes way before they started thinking about harmony. bear in mind that there are some non-western scales that don't use the same notes as your keyboard, but some notes in between. some synths/romplers will let you use non-western tunings.

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Message 3/32                 Date: 05-Mar-02  @  05:23 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

damballah

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oh, sitar could tell you, but you went and insulted him, didn't ya. orbital orbital orbital.

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Message 4/32                 Date: 05-Mar-02  @  05:39 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

damballah

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some of the info in the "what makes goa goa" thread which I pulled up.

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Message 5/32                 Date: 06-Mar-02  @  11:08 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

Brett B

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I insulted Sitar??? I think it was the other way around.. Orbital , Orbital , Orbital....Lemming or somthin.

I do do that already I think. Aolian or likes. Can't remember how to spell those scales. I use a scale but change the tonic and just use the same notes from that scale with a diferant root. Is that what you mean?
Thank everyone, including Sitar for making me laugh.

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Message 6/32                 Date: 06-Mar-02  @  11:25 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

Brett B

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yes Siter's expertise on Indian music would be great!
can't remember who insulted who or where, but
Orbital has been getting thrown around alot. LOL

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Message 7/32                 Date: 07-Mar-02  @  12:19 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

bedwyr

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here's an example of modes. think in c major. play these notes e f g a g f e d e.

all with the same length (1 beat each or crotchets) around 100 bpm i'm guessing. maybe a little slower, with feeling this time, ok? ;)

all these notes are in the scale of c major but does it hell sound like c major. that's because it's in a modal scale. they're the first notes from 'concerto de aranjuez' by rodriguez or 'sketches of spain' by miles davis. go listen to them. and listen to the 'kind of blue' album by miles davis.

you can download 'so what' by that album from kazaa. just two modal 'keys' up and down. beautifull. 'maiden voyage' is another.

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Message 8/32                 Date: 07-Mar-02  @  05:45 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

knowa

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yeah, I'm not sure I really understand it technically, but tunes like 'so what' leave so much room for the soloist, as if more of the 12 notes fit as long as you play them right. god, that half step modulation is so ill and simple.

brett, I'm not interested in being your little online enemy or anything, so in the spirit of civility I urge you to check out Miles' "In a Silent Way", perhaps *the* clearest example of a 'modal sound' I can think of.

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Message 9/32                 Date: 07-Mar-02  @  07:30 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

damballah

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that's one nice record. yep. cut and pasted together with a razor blade and splicing tape, too. old school pro tools.


if you feel like some reading, there's a Jazz Improvisation Primer online that can 'splain some of these modal concepts at ya. but the indian thing, as sitar explained in that "goa goa" thread, is not just a particular series of flatted this or that notes but that you slide from one note to another. maybe I'm oversimplifying here though. sue me.

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Message 10/32                 Date: 08-Mar-02  @  01:02 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

Deano

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I don't know if its still there on new versions of Cubase but on my Atari version there is a thing called the Interactive Phrase Synthesizer. It's like an arpeggiator but you copy a musical phrase into it and then you can change the mode/type of scale. It doesn't help much with the theory but its a quick way to listen to a melody played in lots of different modes. It doesn't do quarter tones though. You will have to mess with the pitch bend for that.

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Message 11/32                 Date: 08-Mar-02  @  11:01 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

sitar

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I don't know how Orbital does it but :P

In north indian music there is basically a 12 tone scale with some diversion from it. South India uses quarter tones so I'll stick to north. The bending of notes both in the scale and as embellishment is what does it mostly. You can't bend indiscriminately though as one might bend a blues guitar note for feeling. The notes are bent or slid seamlessy into eachother. Example: Say we're in the key of C. In Raag Jaijaivanti the notes D>F>E and holding E for a moment is done a lot. D and F must be given their full tonal value, in other words the listener has to hear them being touched clearly no matter how short or long the duration of the slide. During the slide one could almost say an infinate number of vibrations are being passed through, but clearly the notes that are heard by the listener are D, F, E. Raag Desh will do the same thing but land on D again. The sliding is what differentiates that music and western music in tonaly.

Scales: You have 5, 6, and 7 note scales, the rules of which are strictly adhered to in each given Raag. Example: Raag Yaman in C would be played (as the fundamental scale only) ascending: B D E F# A B D C. The 1st and 5th are skipped over when ascending. All seven notes are used in the descending scale.

Rag Puriya B Dflat E F# A B Dflat C. You skip the 1st ascending. All notes are taken in the descending.

Rag Todi Same as Puriya but with Eflat and Aflat instead.

gotta go.

I'll be back :P

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Message 12/32                 Date: 09-Mar-02  @  12:14 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

sitarsong

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Raag Puriya Daneshri is the same as Puriya except you take the 6th, A, is flat and you use the fifth, G, in the descending scale.

Raag Jog is C E F G Bb C ascending and C Bb G F Eb C descending. Both the major and minor 3rds are used playfully off of each other. One goes from F to E and F to Eb so it's sweet to slide from F to E at times but continue through E to Eb, which is a good example of what I mentioned before. When the skills are there one can slide from F to Eb without ever noticing there is an E in between, but one can also "show E" as they say on the way to Eb. It's effective when done at the right moments and brings exclamations of "Shabaaz" and "Khyabat-he" from the audience. They think you are stopping on E and then you don't. Bends the minds when all are expecting E and Eb to be in seperate phrases. Getting off on a tangent.

Raag Kalavati is a beautiful 5 note raag. C E G D Bb C. Up and down. Each raag has its own characteristic motif which I won't go into here.

I have to go again but in Indian music notes are sung and played in such a way that you can snake 5 or 7 or more notes in one successive try. Try it with a modwheel. It's difficult, at least with mine, to get the notes in tune. On sitar you can 8 notes. On Surbahar, the bass sitar, you can pull an octave.

I'll be back :P

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Message 13/32                 Date: 09-Mar-02  @  03:15 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

sitarsong

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Woohoo!

Um....In raag puriya a very typical pull of the string would be A C B Db C B C, or start from the 4th and play F# B A C B Db C B C, or A C B Db C Db C B C, or another Db F# E F# E.

You don't really need to know all this except to understand the concept of sliding, snaking notes. When it's done slowly, like quarter notes at 100bpm maybe, it's called meend. When it's done quickly, like 16ths or 32nds at 100bpm it's called gamuk.

I clicked the notes of Puriya.

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Message 14/32                 Date: 09-Mar-02  @  03:16 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

sitarsong

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C

C#

D

D#

E

F

F#

G

G#

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A#

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C

C#

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D#

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x

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x

Forgot to click the Add keyboard...

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Message 15/32                 Date: 10-Mar-02  @  04:19 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

sitar

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And where's Marianimal these days. She could tell you a thing or 2 about indian music.

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Message 16/32                 Date: 10-Mar-02  @  05:26 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

Brett B

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Thanks Sitar. Very helpful indeed. I was already kind of doing the slide thig when I was trying to create Indian riffs by using portamento and fingering from a note up a neigbor tone and pass it and comeback very fast. That playing with them so fast you only hit the 3rd for a 64th and you back to the nieghbor tone. So you could sequecne this stud out and use the porta knob to record when you want to slide and when you dont in theory. I'll experiment and see what I get. another thing would be to mark your pitch bend wheel with the notes and record it at that value. Then look at your event list and find out what value that note is and from then on sequence the pitch bend on the graphic editor. Just some ideas, but I did see some software that converts sung vocals to midi data and will play a synth back and uses pitch bend to make the synth sing the way the voice did. I'll have to track it down. If I find it I'll drop a link, the demos were convincing enough that it could be used as a tool on the way to getting good results.

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Message 17/32                 Date: 10-Mar-02  @  12:26 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

sitar

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Yea. Drop a link if you find it. I heard about something like that being around a couple of years ago, but heard it was still a bit rough at the time.

Going into the event list and/or drawing portamento would be the best way I think too. My pitchbend wheel mechanism would need much more resistance in it to make that kind of playing at all reasonable.

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Message 18/32                 Date: 10-Mar-02  @  10:43 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

Brett B

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I am still looking, he demo i heard was just a month or two ago, and ironically was a middle eastern vocal played back in midi through synth patch and it did vocalize the in a way. At least you could see how itr did the bending and sliding and then recreate it manually.

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Message 19/32                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  10:29 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

Brett B

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Here is the link Sitar. i am checking out the audio demo now.

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Message 20/32                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  10:34 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

Brett B

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have a listen to the violin wave. Very nice. That is the kind of sliding i wanted. So I can use this to ge those eastern bowed sounds by just recording my vocalization first then runing it through this and then a nice string patch. and it has audio or pitch qauntizing, very cool. I bet my fm would sound good too with a little wind controler I could get some nice gritty avantgarde jazz horns. Through an acoustic model like the korg or yamaha, very authentic sounds could be had.

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Message 21/32                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  01:16 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

sitar

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Great! I can't check it out now cuz I'm at work. Sounds cool.

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Message 22/32                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  04:18 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

Brett B

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I wish i could say i was at work. I need a job, Bills colectors keep calling. Anyway the flutes and strings are great, but your sample has to be the perfect tempo to lock the midi up, but if you sing it it should be ok. Problem is I can't hit any high noted when i sing. So i hope there is some flexability in the editing. I got the demo, but realized my mic won't be here until thursday.

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Message 23/32                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  05:25 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

sitar

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Hope you have money coming in one way or the other soon. Terrible what Enron did to all of you there.

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Message 24/32                 Date: 13-Mar-02  @  01:09 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

Brett B

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i didn't lose any money like many others, but they left me hanging with all my commisions unpaid. It's hopefully a good thing for me. I hated outside sales with them. I have some good prospects. I may need to just suck it up and do some temp work while and keep looking. So have you taken a whack at this digital ear stuff.

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Message 25/32                 Date: 13-Mar-02  @  07:26 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

marianimal

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C

C#

D

D#

E

F

F#

G

G#

A

A#

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C

C#

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D#

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F#

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Sounds like Sitar's given you the basic information you need about bending notes. I think the different characters of the raags are fascinating and I'm learning to recognize the characteristic ornaments in a few of them. I also think it's worth learning from a real teacher if you're seriously interested in Eastern music.

But for now if you want to just create an Eastern sounding scale in a simple way, play with flatting the 7th, then with flatting the 3rd. Then even try flatting the 2nd. See what you like, what sounds appropriate for the mood of your tune. Personally, I find that the time-of-day designations for the raags make sense somehow. In general, raags with a flatted 3rd & 7th (&/or? Sitar?), the Purvang Rags, fall between 9pm and 3am, which is perfect for lots of electronic music. And I recall reading some Ravi Shankar liner notes where he said he liked to use the flatted 2nd & flatted 7th a lot because they helped create transcendent states. Use with respect. I'll never forget (at least the basic idea of) that story about Narada where he was brought to see the beautiful beings, the Raagas, he had been unwittingly torturing by playing badly. I'm sure that tale is very effective at getting earnest young ones to practice.

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Message 26/32                 Date: 14-Mar-02  @  02:07 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

sitar

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There is a story about the great singer Mian Ki Tansen who was supposedly so adept that he had the power to invoke the elements with his singing. A skeptical king demanded that he sing Raag Deepak, which even today is never performed as it is said to create fire, or face death . As he could not dissuade the king he began to sing. Singing Raag Deepak, he became hotter and hotter. A female student of his that was present, fearing he would not survive, started to sing Raag Megh Malhar or Mian Ki Malhar which caused clouds to appear and rain down on Tansen, thus protecting him from bursting into flames.

Remember that next time your mixer starts smoking.

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Message 27/32                 Date: 14-Mar-02  @  09:19 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

marianimal

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I think the young ragini was his daughter, was she not? Or is that shrouded in the mists of legend? Actually I think of that story every time I hear the name Deepak and I think wow, that guy's parents must have expected him to be a total pyro or something.

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Message 28/32                 Date: 14-Mar-02  @  09:30 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

bedwyr

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lol!

keep this info coming guys, very interesting. music&legends.

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Message 29/32                 Date: 14-Mar-02  @  01:01 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

sitarsong

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You're right. It was his daughter. Have you listened to Roshan Ara Begum. if you can get a hold of her long play albums, she's amazing...singer. I could send you a copy of a tape if you like Marianimal. If so, email me.

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Message 30/32                 Date: 14-Mar-02  @  04:49 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

Brett B

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So where was Afra Haza from. I loved her stuff. She died just last year I think. She was only in her 40's. Remember that Eric B and Rakem rip off of "In the Name of..". I have some Razormaid mixes of her songs from the 80's. I have always loved eastern overtones in electronic music, even high School. It adds so much emotion, because eastern music is more dramatic.

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Message 31/32                 Date: 15-Mar-02  @  07:47 PM     Edit: 15-Mar-02  |  07:57 PM   -   RE: eastern scales

marianimal

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Ofra Haza was Yemenite from Tel Aviv, Israel. That Eric B & Rakim extended remix is still a personal favorite.

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Message 32/32                 Date: 17-Mar-02  @  01:55 AM   -   RE: eastern scales

Brett B

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thanks

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