Original Message 1/18                 Date: 31-Dec-01  @  12:31 PM   -   is there a reason for this

monkeyboy

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this could be the stupidest question asked in this forum, but i was wondering why there is a black key missing on the keyboard? what i mean is that there is no E sharp/F flat, why is this? ive got the jist of the layout- 8 notes...12 semitones, but i dont understand WHY these semitones are not there. does any one know or is it just a case of 'because it is'?

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Message 2/18                 Date: 31-Dec-01  @  01:14 PM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

bedwyr

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e sharp is f & f flat is e

the major scale of c goes tone tone tone semitone tone tone tone cdefgab and so a keyboard is layed out like that.

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Message 3/18                 Date: 01-Jan-02  @  12:11 PM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

monkeyboy

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Message 4/18                 Date: 01-Jan-02  @  04:06 PM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

bedwyr

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stupid me, there's a tone too many at the start.

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Message 5/18                 Date: 11-Jan-02  @  10:43 AM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

Boxwell

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If you want to know about the theory behind it look up information on the temperate scale.(I think I've spelt it correctly) It's a bit of a compromise really and also slightly confusing. Dates back a long time ago.

Hope this is of help

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Message 6/18                 Date: 11-Jan-02  @  05:10 PM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

knowa

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realize that "e sharp" and "f" are just names and and your perception that there is a missing note is due to the arbitrary layout of a standard keyboard. if there were nothing but white keys to trigger all the same tones would it still seem like there's a missing note?

I think that the keyboard is layed out as it is due to a combination of ergonomics and tradition.
and it's not a dumb question at all--I'd be quite interested to find out why the keyboard is layed out as it is.

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Message 7/18                 Date: 12-Jan-02  @  11:15 AM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

xoxos

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bedwyr mentioned it already   it's cos of the c major scale, dude.

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Message 8/18                 Date: 12-Jan-02  @  11:44 AM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

bedwyr

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innit. it's not really ergonomics, if you give the notes of the c scale the same size (width) bit of fake ivory coated mdf then there is only 5 places where you need semitones (black keys).  

it doesn't really matter that it's a c scale either. how about a microtonal piano?

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Message 9/18                 Date: 12-Jan-02  @  09:03 PM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

xoxos

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heh heh.. thaat's riight.. thaat's the reason.. now no one will suspect as those black keys sit there ubiquitously, silently seeping their poison code of twos and threes onto the populace through their unwitting musicians..

old sow got caught in the fence last spring..

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Message 10/18                 Date: 16-Jan-02  @  06:02 PM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

sitar

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The missing black keys are usually stuck with double face tape underneath or behind the soundboard. Take the piano apart and if you find them you can squeaze them into place.

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Message 11/18                 Date: 17-Jan-02  @  09:15 AM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

bedwyr

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poison code, lol.

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Message 12/18                 Date: 17-Jan-02  @  08:00 PM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

knowa

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funnny, xoxos. miscegenation of the half-steps. right, the white keys=c major scale. what I meant was, I would be curious to know why c major and not e.g. d minor became the scale around which the layout was organized, and if there was ever any old-school d-minor-centric harpsichords. or something. jesus, who cares? I post up here every three secnds because for the last two weeks my job has entailed searching for repeated or similar questions in a 400+ page interview. hence, my interest in the possible existence of old-school, d-minor-centric harpsichords.

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Message 13/18                 Date: 17-Jan-02  @  10:34 PM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

monkeyboy

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so the answer to my question is basically...because it is 

i realise there isnt actually a note missing i was just curious as to why E sharp and F flat weren't represented on the keyboard as a black key like all of the other notes. but now i see as bedwyr explained that E sharp and F flat share the same keys as E and F...but why? i dont understand how these two semitones can share the same keys as two notes...i understand its cos its the c major scale etc...but there must be a reason for this setup...or maybe the guy who designed it just wanted to f@*k with peoples heads...

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Message 14/18                 Date: 18-Jan-02  @  01:52 PM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

bedwyr

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oh fuck.

look, it doesn't matter if it's c or z sharp. it's a major scale and all major scales have the tone tone semitone tone tone tone semitone sequence.

why do a keyboard based on a major scale? dunno.

maybe they were happier then. ;)

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Message 15/18                 Date: 18-Jan-02  @  03:33 PM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

knowa

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actually, there is no "z sharp".

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Message 16/18                 Date: 19-Jan-02  @  09:01 AM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

bedwyr

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oh shit! now you tell me!

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Message 17/18                 Date: 19-Jan-02  @  03:46 PM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

sitar

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It is kinda interesting though. Whether intentionally done or not, when you go up to a keyboard you can immediately recognize where each note is because of the way the keys are grouped. If I walked up and saw a monotonous pattern of black/white/black/white all up and down, it might be hard to quickly pick out an F for example.

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Message 18/18                 Date: 19-Jan-02  @  09:17 PM   -   RE: is there a reason for this

Pongoid

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try playing a fretless instrument with no markings like and upright bass, or violin, and you'll see why things aren't arranged simply chromaticly on a piano. Some systems allow for properly arranged intonations as well, like proper harmonic series, vs. tempered scales. Nice stuff that.

Ape

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