Original Message 1/13                 Date: 05-Jun-00  @  12:35 PM   -   Trance Drums

raver

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I hate to ask about this by calling them "trance drums" but I've heard this in a lot of trance/progressive house tracks. It's the snare drum. In a groove some how the snare sounds like it off from the 2 and 4 beat by a little and it makes the whole thing groove so well. I've tried bumping the snares off beat a little but when I do it, it just sounds like my seq. is pissed. Can anyone help. If you need an example just listen to a digweed or sasha comp. cd. Actually I think heaven scents drums are like this not sure. Any help would be great.

Steve

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Message 2/13                 Date: 09-Jun-00  @  07:06 AM   -   RE: Trance Drums

JAWA

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Simple its just down to clever sample management

The snares are layered snares, you have the initial 909 type punch snare at the begining then the tail has the extra length that gives the snare its drive, oh shit this makes no sense, it sounded good in my head right?

Basically try and make snares that no "Dsh" at the beginning then an extra "shh" at the end, they can also be compressed (ratio 5, attack 5, release 80-100)to give them the sort of breathing effect......

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Message 3/13                 Date: 09-Jun-00  @  07:09 AM   -   RE: Trance Drums

JAWA

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That should read (attack 80, release 5) oops

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Message 4/13                 Date: 09-Jun-00  @  09:44 AM   -   RE: Trance Drums

k

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ofbeat swing on the snares (and hats) to get that commercial-trance swing you mean?

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Message 5/13                 Date: 09-Jun-00  @  09:52 AM   -   RE: Trance Drums

raver

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I'm sorta new to this type of beat(as far as swinging and stuff). I'm using Cubase, a AKAI S3000XL, and a Drumstation for the drum stuff. I have a nanoverb and a zoom 1201. Can someone explain how i do this in the seq. Go easy on me, I am kinda new to it 

steve

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Message 6/13                 Date: 09-Jun-00  @  06:51 PM   -   RE: Trance Drums

CK

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Its very heavy swing quantise that moves the snare from the off beat to very close to beats 2 and 4. In Logic Audio it's the 8F swing quantise level. By the way without looking in Logic I can't remember whether its and 8F or a 16F, but it's obvious if you try it.

In Cubase I think it would be a heay shuffle, basically it's the classic house pattern, but used in Progressive House/Euro Trance at a slightly faster Tempo.

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Message 7/13                 Date: 10-Jun-00  @  07:40 AM   -   RE: Trance Drums

JAWA

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I dunno its not that much to quantisation, cos some rocking trance tunes are straight 16th note, the thing that really gives a trance tune its drive, is the long decay on the open hat, by adjusting this so that it brings anticipation to the snare drum (one which has that two stage dp-shh sound i mentioned above) should really give a kicking drum groove.......

Also don't forget delay, try having subtle rhythmic delays on bass sounds (subtle as in its not prominent but you know it's there)

Thirdly and finally its all down to percussion.

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Message 8/13                 Date: 13-Jun-00  @  09:18 PM   -   RE: Trance Drums

k

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took some time out to analyse some of their comp stuff...

do you really mean the snare is actually off on the 2,4.. or that there is some other grace snare notes before or after the 2/4 beats?, like a shuffle or swing or something to the beats ??.., they use lots of different beats, a real braod cross section with lots of different fx on tracks, and there's sometimes rimshots and claps layered in eq's underpatterns reinforcing the kis and snares, plus other samples, with reverb fx on sometimes, delay feedback fx , layered beats like on 'Superstring' which has got like a layered samba-type pattern etc, there's delays at work sometimes subtley on kiks....

but if you mean the snares are just dropped on the 2 and 4 behind the beat, i cant hear that on any sasha/digweed comps ive heard it's smak on the beat to me...

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Message 9/13                 Date: 15-Jun-00  @  05:35 PM   -   RE: Trance Drums

CK

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The snare is just in front of beats 2 and 4, which is typical of house and of course what they are playing is better called progressive house or in fact anything except trance. If you have a very heavy swing the snare comes in so late that it is just before the kick which gives that distinctive house feel.

I think the point about Sasha and Digweed's style is that it sort of has a groove, whereas trance tends to be more mechanical.

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Message 10/13                 Date: 16-Jun-00  @  02:20 AM   -   RE: Trance Drums

gs

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you got me confused CK. if the kick comes in "so late".. wouldn't it come after the kick, rather than just before? a 16F quantise will keep the snare exactly on the kick, not sure about the 8F.


house/trance grooves often have a snare/clap on the beat, as well as a little clap/rim/snare/whatever juuust before the beat. you get use a 16F for that (i think, will have to try it). sounds almost like a flam.

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Message 11/13                 Date: 16-Jun-00  @  07:45 AM   -   RE: Trance Drums

JAWA

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CK? right, i've just tried what you're suggesting and i dunno but to me it sound fucking all over the place, it could be my sequencer setup (which is a bit ropey) now i've been making trance for a couple of years now and I think what you are talking about is actually an illusion and it has fooled you into thinking its down to quantisation, cos honestly, from experience I KNOW that not a lot of heavy quantisation goes on in trance music, there is a reason for this, you often have a lot of stuff going on at once and if there was "heavy quantisations" i.e. snares coming just before off beats it would make it very hard to keep everything sounding in time, to me it sounds messy, but again that could be my setup......

Most trance music was created on an MPC3000 and the quantisation used was THE UNMISTAKABLE akai slight shuffle, but it was VERY SLIGHT, now the illision that i'm trying to explain that i think you've mistaken for quantisation is actually down to clever use of rhythmic delay (make sure you have a high setting HF. damp), so sounds appear "two stage", kiks are definitely delay free, but with a slight reverb to add colour and help them sit in the mix, try a Lexicon style ambience setting...... the snares often have a slight delay on them giving that two stage effect and the hats have a longish decay, basslines always tend to have a rhythmic delay on them but it is so subtle that it's giving the tune drive without clouding it....... making a trance tune "roll" is often down to smart thinking production by making all the elements of the drums and percussion sit perfectly together, so nothing overtly stands out...... I've listened to Heaven Scent a million times and its DEFINITELY not quantisation that gives that effect, that's delay and smart use of compression for sure......

Now there are some trance tunes around that have a more dramatic shuffle to them try Logic's 16C for an idea but never anything more than that, unless you wanna head for that really groovy tech house effect.....

Laters,

JAWA

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Message 12/13                 Date: 16-Jun-00  @  06:33 PM   -   RE: Trance Drums

CK

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os, you must have misread me, the kick is always on beats 1, 2, 3, 4. It is the snare that is sometimes not exactly on a 16th. What I am referring to is a way of using the swing function to get the snare just ahead of beats 2 and 4, which is more typical of house than trance.

JAWA I actually worked this out from looking at a tutorial in Future Music about 18 months ago. The tutorial was actually on house and indeed this is not a typical trance drum construction. To my ears most snares in Euro Trance are on beats 2 and 4 with no quantisation.

I'd agree that in normal circumstances you can't easily use more than a 16C swing in Logic at the sort of tempos these tracks are written at ie 136-140BPM.

I'm not clear what you mean by trance music. Psy Trance usually runs at a much faster tempo than the Euro stuff with no quantisation. I don't think that Sasha and Digweed play much trance, they tend to talk about deep trance, progressive house etc.

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Message 13/13                 Date: 19-Jun-00  @  03:42 AM   -   RE: Trance Drums

gs

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crap, actually i made a typo, but nevermind i know what you're talking about, i know that article. i believe what your talking about is a beat something like this one. if you quantized this beat with a very heavy 16th swing like the 16F in Logic, every second 16th note be late (a lot late). so the snare hits in this case would sound like they are almost on the kick beat. this is more house than trance tho i would think, agree with JAWA trance has very little swing, more like 16A.

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