Original Message 1/22                 Date: 27-Oct-00  @  05:07 PM   -   Industrial music theory?

chickenhead

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I've been experimenting with music (mainly dance industrial) for a little over a year now with very little formal training. In spite of the fact that I have made a lot of progress in that time, I'm afraid that if I don't start studying some music theory that applies to the structuring of the music I may start to make negative progress with my music. Does anyone know any resources where I can learn more about song structure?

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Message 2/22                 Date: 27-Oct-00  @  07:27 PM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

casparproject

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See if you can find a copy of "earmaster" I beleive e-magic (Logic) makes it. It's a great ear training program, and it'll teach you a lot about note relationships from intervalic relationships to chord progressions.

Peaceout,

Peter

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Message 3/22                 Date: 28-Oct-00  @  08:11 PM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

shpongledboy

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Don't know about industrial but here is few links.

http://www.tweakheadz.com/recipes.html

http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/apr00/articles/arrangingpop.htm

Shpongled

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Message 4/22                 Date: 30-Oct-00  @  04:10 AM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

BJT

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Some good stuff here.

Anyone have links or know of good books
describing different song structures?

Something I'm trying to get into is to listen to a
song I like, break it down into sections etc...

BJT

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Message 5/22                 Date: 31-Oct-00  @  06:33 AM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

Gobbler

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OXYMORON?

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Message 6/22                 Date: 31-Oct-00  @  06:42 AM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

H

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I played 2 gigs live with pigface on the Notes from Thee Underground tour and while I was onstage I observed NO THEORY TAKING PLACE EXCEPT FOR THE EXTRA KEYBOARD GUY BEHIND EVERYONE ELSE EVEN ME.I played @ the outback in Orlando and @ Masquarade in Atlanta.They put me with my grocery cart in FRONT of a fulltime touring guy because he had theory.james if you're reading this Where the Fuck Are you anyway?GENESIS P orridge was just pressing noises on his EPS and even let me have a stab @ bangin out noises on the eps and I can Guarantee No theory is taking place inside of Genesis's head but who's he anyway just the cat who came up with the WHOLE FUCKING GENRE TO BEGIN WITH.

-  having no grasp of piano music will take you much further than you think.FUCK THEORY I DON'T need it and nor do you,and if you already got it too bad because you're wounded bad.

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Message 7/22                 Date: 31-Oct-00  @  11:57 PM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

pict

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If you think of the different ways to approach synthesising sound 2 methods immediately spring to my mind.You can throw away the manual and twiddle knobs listening all the time to how the different knobs affect the sound and maybe eventually you can figure out the entire sound creating possibilities more than likely however you will not even scratch the surface of the sound creation possibilities.Another method could be to study the manual thoroughly learning how to manipulate all the parameters in the synth to produce the desired result at the same time you could learn about oscillators,filters,envelope generators,midi and armed with that knowledge I think you would be far more capable of producing a desired sound far more quickly than just twiddling knobs and guessing.This may not be the best analogy but I think you see what I'm getting at.Theory opens up an extra musical dimension why not avail yourself of a knowledge base developed for centuries and contributed to by some of the greatest musicians the world has ever seen,to refute the value of such a vast store of knowledge displays,to my mind,amazing ignorance.

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Message 8/22                 Date: 04-Nov-00  @  12:47 AM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

National Kid

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I agree with pict. In my opinion you´ll go nowhere without a theory base. It might not be that you get the theory you want from books, etc, but you must know and study the music itself. Try breaking down the music. Pay attention to the melody, try figuring out what gets your attention in songs that you like and learn from it. That´s the way I´m using to learn music. I´m just getting into electronic music now, that´s the way i use to learn and that way i have always learned music, electronic or not. As a former rock player(anything with guitar really) i care a lot about the melody. I really think it´s one of the most important thing on music, electronic or not.
Hope this helps

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Message 9/22                 Date: 04-Nov-00  @  12:44 PM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

h

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I have synth and sound theory I've been programming synths in some form or the other for 16yrs. and i used a roland 4 book course on subtractive synthesis and have had a sampler since '89.I read the manuals for the general architecture of it but it ALL works the same.Always has Always will.but being able to synthesize electronic music really has nothing to do w/ synthesisizer music.Music Theory in general is made for single timbred acoustic instruments and when there is an infinite amount of places that an oscillator can be when using control voltages so 12 SEMI TONES simply do not apply.the Octave is outdated.keyboards are just one of many methods for creating sound and music but If you are going to shape your own sound you need to know more about how sound is created in the first place than you do some scales or the ability to read music.I find that experimentation is key to finding your own voice and once you have succeeded in doing that your fingerprints will be all over anything you do.Sure you have to understand how TECHNOLOGY works but rhythmic and melodic Technique is best brought into the picture from inside your own mind.But anyway I don't intend to look at this section of the forums anymore so by all means study music if you like but if you cant make your OWN synthesizer sounds and patterns All the scales,chords and harmonies can wasily be destroyed by a firm grasp of sound,voltage,rhythmn,and 1 finger pattern based MPC programming.mark my words or Mock them but my abilities are about to chew up and spit out alot of "musicians".bet.

-  I can do it w/o the rules thank you.

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Message 10/22                 Date: 05-Nov-00  @  04:31 AM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

pict

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Music is much more than synthesing sounds.Once you have created your sounds/timbres you still have to arrange them in a musically meaningful way otherwise your collection of carefully sculpted sounds/timbres will be perceived as noise.The 12 tone system offers A method(and a tried and tested one at that)of arranging sounds in a pleasing and logical manner if you availed yourself of that system which does not have to be exclusive of other methods you would in time realise that it has enormous potential to improve your music making.Denying the value that a knowledge of musical theory might have for music making seems to me to be a very closed minded attitude to an obvious avenue of musical exploration,it's not the be all and end all but it is a very useful store of knowledge which helps stop you from re-inventing the musical wheel so to speak.

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Message 11/22                 Date: 05-Nov-00  @  10:18 AM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

h

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oh what the hell i said iwouldn't but i guess i lied.A tried and tested method?No such thing.Alot of INDUSTRIAL MUSIC(the real thing anyway)is just noise arranged in a sequential fashion.I suggest you go back before the 90's and listen to TG's hamburger lady.Then transcribe it on paper and sit down and play it at your next piano recital.Who the fuck says INDUSTRIAL MUSIC is supposed to be pleasing to western ears only.I suggest you get out of that music class immediatly and try to forget that shit.When it's just bleeps and blips and drones why would you need to know how to do anything other than arrange sound and silence effectively.

-  If you would like to play the modern industrial muzak learn a bunch of metal guitar riffs and get yourself a drum machine dress like a leather boy and you too can be a heroin addicted long haired goofball w/ marshall stacks to make up for your insufficient cock size.have fun in class.

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Message 12/22                 Date: 05-Nov-00  @  11:20 AM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

pict

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Do you ever cast more than a cursory glance at what other people write?,or are you just so deeply entrenched in your own ignorance that you cannot see beyond your own ill informed ideas.Your petty,small minded,derogatory jibes at people who hold different points of view to you are really tiresome.If you want to make your music more accessible to a greater number of people a knowledge of theory can be nothing but a bonus you can still twiddle knobs and improvise wildly to your hearts content but knowledge of theory is an EXTRA tool you can use to add a new dimension to your music.If you don't like it don't use it but stating that musical theory is a useless tool for helping to make music is stupidity born of deep ignorance.Of course you are probably the kind of person who thinks that any form of music other than the type you're into is not worth listening to you narrow minded,mentally deficient idiot.

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Message 13/22                 Date: 06-Nov-00  @  05:06 PM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

casparproject

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Wheee!

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Message 14/22                 Date: 07-Nov-00  @  01:29 AM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

H

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I know I work you transcribe and the accessiblity of my music is not in the slightest bit of concern for me.The fact that for the past 10 yrs of my life i've had to do nothing but work in studios helping "musicians" try to figure out how to do the most basic networking and use of this complicated dance music proves how mentally deficient I am.I'm such an idiot that 13 yrs ago when I was 15 the music store used to call me to show the sales guys who were pianists how to do something other than call up a preset shows how much of an idiot i am.Most music is crap.I don't care about MTV or the Radio so if this is the audience i am supposed to allow access to my music then they can access you for all i care.All i am concerned with is entertaining those who deserve to be entertained.And those folks wake up at 5 in the afternoon and go out at 3am until.And considering my present situation I feel pretty confident about how things are going.I know personally alot of the big named people in that genre and am very tired w/ it myself.He asked where to study industrial music theory,and i said no such thing,what's so hard about that.i used reasons and experience to base that opinion on.If you want to get all bent out of shape because you think in scales and i think in voltage cool it doesn't matter.Electronic music is designed to be a place that your sound plays the number 1 part then theory.THEORY,go look up that word it means the same as guess.You see why lock yourself into rules that simply don't apply.I can program the sounds and play/program the melodies I already have in my head so why would i want to throw a wrench into a machine that isn't broken.If you are an artist you wouldn't care about what others think what's important is what you think NOTHING ELSE.I don't deal in demographics and all that garbage but I am market savvy and can make a reasonable living from musical and sound related activity.So tomorrow while you're clocking in at work and i'm waking up when i want to and calling my contacts seeing where i stand and what the next task i am assigned is,you can pull out a pen a write out some recycled crap you learned in band or @ piano lessons then go home call up a preset and play the little ditty you and only you will hear because no one cares about your music because it sounds like a bad groovebox pattern,enjoy it.

-:p I probably wrote a preset or two or maybe a pattern in your box of the month and wouldn't buy one because they give them to me.Ha! Ha!

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Message 15/22                 Date: 07-Nov-00  @  08:31 AM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

pict

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Yet another bloated post of posturing and completely unprovable claims from the most presumptious arsehole ever to darken the dancetech forums not that I expected any less than your usual drivel.Has the(or even A )thought ever entered that collection of emotional insecurities and confusion that seems to be what passes for your mind ,that maybe other people know how to program synths and how to entertain people with live performances or recordings of their work.I don't think in scales or voltage I think in music.I make sounds that are appealing to me that express how I feel and I know that many other people like what I do musically.This forum is a MUSIC THEORY forum just because you're ignorant about theory doesn't mean it isn't and can't be any use to someone who is interested in learning how to make more interesting chord progressions,melodies etc.

You know nothing about my life so any statement you make concerning my lifestyle or outlook is going to be presumptious,but for your information not that it's any of your business I make music full time none of it dance so you wouldn't be interested in it anyway.As for all your unverifiable claims about the gear you own and your musical employment I think that at best you are a fabulist and at worst a liar in other words I don't believe you and furthermore have no further interest in maintaining a dialogue with you as there is obviously nothing of worth to be gained from doing so by the way the original poster asked to be helped to find resources that explained song structure and theory all you've done is state how useless his intentions are obviously because you are a musical ignoramus.

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Message 16/22                 Date: 07-Nov-00  @  04:28 PM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

chickenhead

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I'm going to have to side with H on this issue. On closer inspection I have realized that all of my favorite groups (Throbbing Gristle, Merzbow, Psychic TV, Coil) rely soely on their originality to entertain and create music. I was wrong, there is no theory in real industrial music. Its all in the sound.

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Message 17/22                 Date: 07-Nov-00  @  05:01 PM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

H

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What kind of proof do you need?you could accept my statements as truth from my perspective but if you think i'm lying then i guess i could scan my band pass from the pigface tour and go over to matts house and take a picture of the smashed and signed dx from trent,whose tech stays near here once a year w/ my friend who filled in keyboard duties w/ 242 live.But i don't have to because if you want to doubt me that is your problem.I'm the one who has an inside line so i don't have to prove anything to anybody my beats speak for themselves thank you.


-:p i'm on the move while you're stuck in a groove(box)
i am not allowed to tell you anything about the dealings I have w/ manufacturers because of legal garbage so you can think what you like about that.I'd love to set you straight but i'm not going to jeapordize my bottom line by trying to impress you.

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Message 18/22                 Date: 08-Nov-00  @  04:51 AM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

teknoguy

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Going back to the original post, music theory is probably not very necessary at all in industrial music, but it would be a good idea to learn it if you have the chance because if you decide to persue other genres or forms of music then you will thank yourself for taking the time to learn. Knowledge can never hurt, so learn as much as you can.

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Message 19/22                 Date: 08-Nov-00  @  05:05 AM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

H

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I've seen classically trained peeps here asking what key to use in acid techno.All because of the training they have.You want to be trained like a small pet who doesn't wet the carpet.Fuck that make your own rules.Unless you're playing cover songs or something.

-  i'll leave you guys alone now.good luck to ya.I've got a record to finish.

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Message 20/22                 Date: 08-Nov-00  @  08:12 PM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

Gh

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I'm going to have to side jump on H's side on this despite the fact he's a friggin' arsehole to listen to on these boards.

Music theory is all good and great, but it has it's limitations. There would never be industrial music or manifestos such as "The Art of Noise" (? not sure whether that's the exact title; too use to thinking about the group by the same name inspired by the manifesto) if music theory didn't fall short.

Why does it fall short?

Simply because it cannot encompass all the ways to create music & sound. Current musical theory feels like Newtonian physics with a couple of touch ups here and there to account for non-Western music and some recent changes to music in the past century or so. Music theory is simply the general principles to music and the study thereof, but unfortunately it hardly even encompasses that!

In response to the original question, what the person is asking doesn't even need to be taught through rigid music theory. It can be taught by listening to and examining music and sound without needing to worry about what scale or key something is in. Not only that - it will take the poster further in typically undefined genres such as industrial.

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Message 21/22                 Date: 08-Nov-00  @  08:55 PM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

swanofnever

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hey! i just wanted to know if there was some magic key, damn you!

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Message 22/22                 Date: 09-Nov-00  @  04:44 AM   -   RE: Industrial music theory?

Gh

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Why didn't you say so?!  

Just forewarning.. It'll cost ya. :p

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