Original Message 1/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  02:29 AM   -   What the f&é

Pongoid

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What's with these DJs coming into the music theory forum, spouting blasphemy all of a sudden? People ask why musicians hate DJs, and I think I'm starting to figure out a solid answer. Starting to.

It's in part because they are getting a huge chunk of the musician's cake/respect without knowing shit about music, and without doing shit to get the musicians the respect the deserve. Instead, they are just keeping the kids ignorant, and feeding on them.

Another reason is that they treat music like a commodity, each track or sound, being just another asset for them to whip out during a set. I'm sure part of this is because of musicians making DJ tools as well. But there are a few of us out there trying to make pieces that stand on their own and are still danceable. A perfect example is the guy in the Vocal samples thread, wanting prepackaged lyrics for what is obviously going to be a prepackaged piece, rather than trying to find a musician to do the right job, and support that musician as an individual pro, and as a part of the musician community. Read the post, and you'll see so clearly what a little skiver this bastard is. The saddest part is that he doesn't even realize the lack of respect he has. Just sheer ignorance, like the drunk who staggers into church and pisses in the holy water by the door, then feels up the statue of Mary and asks her for a 'just a little kiss,...hun-urp-hunnyhhh' in his blinded state. How would the priest feel seeing that? Music is my religion, and I can tell you, it bothers me seeing the equivalent of that kind of ignorant behavior. Okay laugh, cuz at first it is funny, but it's not funny after a while, and after years it becomes obvious as a symptom of a very large problem of misunderstanding and coersion, combined with ignorance and apathy, thus not being very funny at all.

What can we do about this? What are YOU going to do about this, cuz you're either part of the solution or part of the problem.



Ape

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Message 2/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  02:30 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

Pongoid

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And yes, I did wake up on the wrong side of the floor this morning.


Ape

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Message 3/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  08:23 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

ggehiere

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I feel the pain, pongoid. Not to be a doom-sayer, but
the days where the DJ is revered as rock-star are going
to end, and soon.

DJs used to be the faceless hands behind the decks,
playing for the enjoyment of the audience - whom the
party was really about.

DJs today have it backwards - it's not about them, it's
about the audience. And the audience knows the DJs have
it backwards.

(This is with the exception of a few DJs who write
their own stuff and get it pressed, probably because
they make more money spinning their own tracks than if
they tried to do a live PA.)

Maybe more musicians need to do live PAs, and drum up
some attention. Releasing 1000 white-labels isn't going
to do anything for one's r

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Message 4/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  08:56 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

damballah

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Yes, those were a pair of the most retarded questions I've read in a while. Maybe k could set up a DJ Zone so those guys can yack among themselves without infecting the theory forum. I don't know about the audiences getting it or not. The best drawing club in town right now is the one running ads for Carl Craig and Josh Wink DJ sets in 112 pt. type. Not to pick on Jon the DJ, but how is it these people think their set of skills naturally translate into another? He says he's got midi down now. It's just a matter of time. It's kind of like someone who works in a gallery saying, "I've hung a lot of paintings. I know what a good painting is. It's a natural progression for me to paint myself." Without realising the years of dedication and study and work that went into being able to produce that quality of work. That sounds ridiculous, right? But somehow, this art form is different? Yeah, painters don't have vocal sample CDs, the poor bastards. They also don't have legions of kids with glow sticks and pacifiers inflating their egos. Key a record? I find a car key works pretty well. You can use a house key in a pinch. I prefer to play 'em on a turntable myself.

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Message 5/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  11:36 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

pict

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I don't think anyone who plays,scratches or otherwise fucks around with records on a turntable in front of an audience can be called a musician.They are at best entertainers not all musicians are entertainers and audiences want entertainment.I believe a lot of people like seeing/hearing mediocre talents on stage,screen and record because it makes them feel as if they could do it too and that really they are just as capable of producing that stuff as mr popstar/dj and they are right.I think people don't like excellence in general because it reminds them of how shit their own efforts really are.To become a really good musician requires intense practice,perseverance,obsessive dedication,and immense concentration that the average joe just doesn't have that's why most of what we hear on record or see on stage is mediocre and average.Anybody can figure out how to put a record on a turntable and figure out the controls and get to reasonable level of efficiency in a very short space of time because of this the average DJ thinks that a musical instrument can be sussed in about the same length of time and doesn't even realise the vast field of study that is attached to placing musical sounds together via musical instruments.Jon the DJ himself stated similar in a thread in the music/tech area I think that if you have some musical knowledge and can pass that on to the likes of Jon that can only be a good thing sooner or later he will realise that DJing has got nothing to do with musicianship.Please don't try and convince me that a turntable is a musical instrument two bags of crisps rubbed together rhythmically can be produce a musical sound it doesn't make them musical instruments.
DJs are only important in getting music heard all the rest of it bores me shitless, dexterity they say, try playing a saxophone,fiddle or a harp that's dexterity of an order that a DJ can never approach without musicians DJs wouldn't exist.

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Message 6/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  01:17 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

swanofnever

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i have to agree with pongoid all the way, these things really bother me, almost as much as companies like roland putting all their millons of dollars of potentially useful r&d into another mc-3000 groove piece of shit, instead of trying to do something useful/cool/new (like the fizmo... maybe not totally new, but definitely a step in the right direction...)

but as for pict, you've obviously never seen a real turntablist go to work... i'll agree that your standard dance dj has very limited, if any, musical skills, but i've got a friend who's been scratching for 6-7 years, and beleive me, you'll realize that "dexterity" thing is just plain wrong, i play sax/guitar/drums/paino, and i really have to say he's easily at my level, besides which you should hear the shit this guy comes up with... basically in the right hands turntables become real-time samplers (albeit limited), and i don't really think anyone can deny the musicality of sampling... you should check out the kid koala cd for a good example...

but yeah, the fact that music is basically being shit on by the gear industry, thousands of djs, and millions of stupid kids really gets me down sometimes...

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Message 7/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  01:48 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

Pongoid

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Yes, I will also admit there are exceptions. See turntablist who can scratch really well are regrded as such because they do have a certain grasp of rythmic theory. This IS music theory. I can listen to Q-bert and hear that he has some understanding. By the same token, I also hear some amazing MCs using very strong rythmic approach to the way they present words and ideas, so I can't discount them at all, but they are certainly more the exception than the rule, and are recognized as such. That's what makes them special, but this prepackaged shit, and the lack of respect from the majority of both musicians and audience still sickens and annoys me to the verge of insanity. I see perfect examples of this everywhere I go, and everywhere I play. I hope this will end soon. Audiences do not know that DJs have it backwards at all. Glad to see I'm not alone in seeing this and feeling this way. Big ups all. Let's fix this.



Ape

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Message 8/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  03:45 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

pict

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Well the very best scratchers then could be compared to very good hand drummers in that they can do intricate rhythmic things with some fancy sound effects thrown in maybe you're into that but honestly I have seen these guys it does nothing for me not one miniscule iota of pleasure do I derive from it and even the most excellent turntablist could never hope to reach the levels of dexterity of Charlie Parker,John Coltrane and I can't be convinced otherwise.I don't like the sound of accordians particularly,same with turntables they just irritate the fuck out of me the difference is with these machines is that after a very short space of time you could fool some folks into thinking you were a good DJ but not so with a sax you will still sound shit unless you put a lot of work into it.It never pays to be presumptious in a debate Swan, you really don't know if I have witnessed a "real turntablist" it may well be I have witnessed many and don't rate them as highly as you.I think the average consumer wouldn't find it too taxing to listen to a full CD of sax or piano or guitar music on the other hand(the one not on the turntable;)I don't think there are many people who would like to listen to an hour plus of scratching.

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Message 9/24                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  10:47 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

damballah

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Thanks a lot for that mental image, pict. The military ought to incorporate turntablists into their psychological operations division. "Surrender now or we'll start scratching records."

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Message 10/24                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  12:59 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

pict

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LOL!

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Message 11/24                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  01:23 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

pict

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I should add that I come from a generation that considered it anathema to scratch an LP.I would immediately tape my albums to avoid scratches and would be pretty anal about lending them out,there was nothing better than listening to a scratch free album so when all this scratching stuff came out I just found it to be irritating(as well as the waste of a good record)as did I'm sure many others.

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Message 12/24                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  03:02 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

pongoid

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Okay, Pict. I feel you. Q-bert is Peter Erskine, and will never be, but he's as close as you get with decks (which really isn't very close). Okay, DJ's have been measured and in the balance found wanting.



Ape

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Message 13/24                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  03:08 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

influx

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pongoid..that first post..man..

well said.

I dont have beef necessarily because Im not in the loop..but the way you put that..theres NO arguing against it.

especially the part about treating music as a commodity. the DJs I know..they want to get the new hot recors FIRST..so they can play this COOL NEW track..

and I say..what about the beautiful old ones? what about the ones that arent COOL (someone in a record pool didnt say "THIS IS COOL BUY IT"?)

right on, man. youve made me more aware

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Message 14/24                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  06:25 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

Marc

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I was thinking about this DJ/Musician thing today and came up with a good analogy (IMHO) :

Last time you went to the cinema did you applaud the projectionist ??


Marc.

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Message 15/24                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  10:36 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

deltasleep

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this is coming across a problem i have faced many many many times, and one that has taken me years of my long 17 year life. The bottom line is this:

music does not mean the same thing to the DJ's and the public as it does to us.

music is not the center of everyone's lives, nor can we expect it to be. This is like being a dairy farmer, and ranting about people eating margarine thats bad for them instead of butter. That can be the center of a person's life. But the people eating it don't care, they're just trotting along through their lives, and its just 15 min at breakfast, at most, for them. You know? My father(a breadline jazz guitarist) has ranted about this as long as can remember, and he still doesn't get it. Its not something you can sweat, your time can be better spent.

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Message 16/24                 Date: 08-Jul-00  @  10:43 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

sitar

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Yea Pongoid. That day we met in Thompkins Square Park I had myself a good time, but the music was enjoyable because of what was happening around it. You pointed that out that day. I wouldn't have gone out and bought a cd of anything I heard on that day.

I just have to keep workin at stuff until it starts to really come together for me. That's where I'm at right now. And I always slept on the floor until I got married. I hate making a bed every day. Real musicians don't sleep in beds....until they get married.

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Message 17/24                 Date: 08-Jul-00  @  03:18 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

Pongoid

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Delta,
Okay, music certainly does not mean the same thing to us, as we live this stuff, but it does make some sort of difference as it people invest billions in it. It has power, and we are simply too stupid, and not associated with the right people to take the energies we harness, and steer them in the right direction. What I think it really takes is a couple of smart hedz who really know business, like managers but with something other than just money in mind to put things back on track.


I have no qualms with prospering from good music, however I believe it can do so much more. I've fed a thousand people with the money I raised in a benefit on more than one occasion, and I see a big lack of this type of thing from others. When's the last time any of you got involved with a benefit? Good shit.

This shit ain't just butter for your bread, this is power; the ability to alter moods, sway belief, start or stop fights, raise or quell awareness. You're just forgetting or ignoring this. I can put a smile on peoples' faces in seconds, make them forget their fatigue and frustration with life just by communicating an inexplicable feeling to them. I'm not alone in this. People just don't realize how powerful this meduim is. Picture life without music, and tell me it means little to people. Your pop has good reason to be pissed off. I am too.

So, I guess we gotta start scouting for folks who don't make music, but understand its importance, and have the right philosophies in life, and are wiling to help. Where to start?
Ape

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Message 18/24                 Date: 11-Jul-00  @  08:17 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

ggehiere

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I agree with pongoid... music is a bigger part of many
people's lives that some may think. Music is the
catalyst for events and moods, and the trigger for so
many memories.

I would like to mention that DJs (good DJs) make
excellent arrangers. When I was in grunge rock bands 12
years ago, the drummer always worked out the
arrangements. I always spot drummers with arrangement
credits on traditional music CD sleeves, and I think
it's because the drummer is listening to everything,
not just himself. And I think that's why so many DJs
can't write to save their souls, but they sure are good
at arranging or 'producing' (in the strictest sense)
other people's music. They're the one's really
listening, really getting into the music, just like
drummers.

My friends who are DJs have given me lots of good
advice - 'you should make this 2 bars instead of 4, add
sub-bass to the bass drum right here, add a quiet snare
hit miming the claps, move this part ahead 8 bars, etc.
etc.' But most can't write at all..

My favourite quote of the week - 'A critic is someone
who knows the way, but doesn't know how

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Message 19/24                 Date: 11-Jul-00  @  11:29 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

siva

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Thats why I hate most DJ's.

Justin

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Message 20/24                 Date: 12-Jul-00  @  04:29 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

casparproject

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fuck'em all. there's nothin we can do about it. i hate 'em. lets just hope the public wakes up eventually and realizes that DJ's don't do shit. any of you seen that new Sting video (that guy actually had a lot of my respect until I saw this piece of cinematic fecal matter) with all the electronic crap in it, and not a single synth in the video, just a fuckin DJ pretending to actually be doing somethin. FUCK 'EM ALL!!!!!

Peter

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Message 21/24                 Date: 13-Jul-00  @  09:41 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

ggehiere

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I'm not that fond of this scam DJs are running either,
I was just making a point about some DJs possessing
some very useful skills that can benefit musicians who
tap into it. PPK, one of the top trance artists on
Mp3.com (trance haters please don't flame me over this
example) are made up of a producer and a DJ, and I
think the DJs input on arrangement and so forth is
evident (though I have no proof of his input).

And when I go to parties, I really love Live PAs, but
they seem like a bitch to set up, and things often go
wrong (I saw Art of Trance a few months ago, and they
went to McDonald's instead of the warehouse where the
party was, so they were 3 hours late, then the montiors
and most of the board blew so they put a DJ back on for
another 1 1/2 hours while they tried to fix it).

And lastly, I've heard alot of really shitty electronic
artisits that I don't like, and wouldn't want to listen
to for a 2-4hr. set. At least with DJs I can be pretty
sure that one of the next few tracks I'll actually
like. If it was all just live acts I think we'd see
more shows where everyone shows up to hear their
favourite then leaves, and it's back to the whole rock
n' roll think of super stars and other bullshit,
instead of beaing about the most import people at the
whole party - the audience.

This is just an opinion, so don't shoot me over it. I
don't like seeing all those jokers making my money
either. I feel like jumping over the decks and
throttling some of these guys yelling 'Give me back

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Message 22/24                 Date: 15-Jul-00  @  11:34 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

r-tek

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sheesh. I can both mix and produce, and I`ve spoken out against DJs thinking they`re at least the equal of producers before because they`re nowhere near. DJing is practice and knowing your records which forms a skill, producing is practice,practice,practice and talent which forms and artform. It also sucks that they seem to make such a decent living out of this while the peole that actually make the records havta spend 9-5 hod-carrying.































but hell, how much exposure are you all really gonna get without the DJ? Sure, if you play live thats one dancefloor a night maximum and most people, myself included dont wanna hear people playing live, it bores the shit out of me and there always seems to be far less people dancing than if someone was just spinning tunes. If you can get the DJs playing you tunes, then you`ve got thousands of people hearing your shit, thousands of people that may well go hunt the track down afterwards. Another thing is, generally speaking, people that haven`t/don`t mix have no fucking clue how to structure their records, no fucking idea. Which means ir aint gonna get played out cos the dynamics are all wrong for mixing with. I`m not having a go, but some of you seem real bitter right now, real bitter. You hate em? Sure, see how far you get without em. Thats a fact of life, I`m not bigging them up, but they`re necessary, they play at the parties, they spread the nessage on the pirates, they take your music abroad and open up whole new markets for your music. How far out of Detriot would techno have got without the DJs?






















































Sure, some parity is need, and the general public need to learn that they`re not the creative force behind the music that they think they are but is that their fault? They`re the frontline of the scenem they`re the ones that take it out of your studio so maybe you should recognise that.

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Message 23/24                 Date: 20-Jul-00  @  07:05 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

amiga303

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good discussion!

some mental stuff around...(special awards to: pongoid, pict and casparproject)
i think you shouldn't consider a dj as a musician, like somebody said above he's an entertainer. there is nothing bad about to be an entertainer, probably djs are pretty good compared with others (tv ot whatever).
i reckon it is not very fair the djs making all the money, while the creators of the stuff they are spinning haven't got a swimming pool where loads of bitches show up their brown skin.
it is allright though...
make up your mind: most of the people who have got some money you can try to get by selling them music or whatever ARE stupid. of course you are not really dumb if you buy a record like britney spears or the golden polka-hits, you are just a victim of our beloved (?) system ("democracy" (in fact ruled by mass medias and therefore by the money).
if you are a musician you are an artist i guess. an artist reflects his surroundings and stands "aside" the mass-people. it is fuckin' true. it might seem to you a bit intolerant to say all the people out there is so crap, and you may consider me as bloody arrogant to obviously define me as a "super-human", or a "reborn incarnarion of the REAL artist, exremely high brained and god-like or whatever...nope! i am just a mass-fucker as well i reckon but i am still a super-artist tough. i am the both. you are (perhaps) the both.
there are no classifications in reality, only grey-zones (it is my fuckin german, don't know if you understand what i mean).
back to the topic: when the first djs came up nobody thought they are musicians, yet they were doing something new, interesting, playing (sometimes) weird music. there was something going on. from the underground...
the djs became famous cause only a very few knew about the music. i believe there are still thousands of dumbheads out there who think it is all coming from the decks. they are not interested in where the music comes from, what the real source is, cause this way would lead into the underground where it is nasty and dirty. and dangerous! it doesn't fit the clean barbie-land, you know?
good artists don't give a shit on promoting their personality or selling themselves as a toy-like, money-making fuck. the dj represents the good values, like being well dressed or having lots of cool equipement. he is the toy the mass want to have on stage. the fact that many djs are quite far out and have a "politically uncorrect" lifestyle is a proof for my theory. cause there is the opposite movement, always...

dj-ing means business. your records are not so important as long the crowd recognizes something about (yeah! that is what all this dam mass-production music is about! if the hear a "nice" sample and a "nice" melody the song is OK unless it has been copied 45545454545 times. because their minds are shut down, no lateral thinking at all. they have a quite superficial meaning of what frequencies are music).

don't want to write more.

lfo@gmx.ch
roh-man

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Message 24/24                 Date: 20-Jul-00  @  10:27 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

Pongoid

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Good observations. I think a lot of it started with that mixed CD that Keoki put out, and Sony, at madonna's behest pushed the fuck out of. It all went way downhill from there. I'm sure it really started much earlier, but that's what made it really evident for me. Seeing that punk with the leopard spot hairdo, sitting there trying to look all spiritual and iconic, slpashed all over every music mag and billboard made me sick. Know the pic? Still, there's hope. The underground grows stronger. A new generation is emerging. You all are in for a treat in the near future. You will see. All these years I have been posting, I've also been on the inside, looking out, and helping the other freaks progress. Keep your eyes peeled. There is hope yet.  


Ape

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