Original Message 1/19                 Date: 05-Jul-00  @  03:22 PM   -   How to Key Records?

Ballboy

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I, ve a couple of questions here. What is the best way to establish the key a record is made in? and secondly if say for example you've keyed a record as being made in a C what other keys are likly to sit well with this? Now i don't need any bullshit answers from pricks who say use yours ears peabrain etc... I DJ and have done for many years and know when one track sounds bad with another because they are out of key. The reason i want to know is more for in the production field when using samples and pitch shifting etc..I spoke a few years back to a DJ called Anthony Papa from DMC who showed me a key chart that had on it what keys went well together and possibly, I cant quite remember,how to key a record. I have since e-mailed DMC on this but thought you helpful Bunch at Dancetech might be able to help ,or have seen these key charts. Someone else has told me that this may be a musical theory called CADENCES, anyone,anyone?Well I'll leave the finer points of this disscusion till i,ve received from feedback on this topic, but it is basically to help me learn more about key relationships and therfore save time in the studio.Look forward to some interesting chat with all u musical wizards out there. BB

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Message 2/19                 Date: 05-Jul-00  @  05:11 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

ballbagface

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use your ears you fucking twat, they wasnt put or your head to make you look like a prick you know

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Message 3/19                 Date: 05-Jul-00  @  07:20 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

pict

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Cadence come from the Latin word meaning to fall,in music different cadences are used to describe the sound of one chord resolving to another another generally at the end of a musical phrase or chord progression so a G major chord changing to a C major chord in the key of C has been given the name "perfect cadence" cadences are used to give a feeling of motion in music.If you listen to a C chord changing to an F chord then to a G chord and back to a C chord you get a definite feeling of motion and resolution.People use the term cadence to describe those sound changes between chords regardless of key.The only way to become familiar with those sounds is to listen to them most musicians become familiar with the sounds of various keys after constant practice and trying to duplicate what they hear until they can make their own music.To know that a song is in the key of F without being told is a purely a matter of being intimate with the sounds,that only comes through listening and cross reference on a musical instrument.

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Message 4/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  01:36 AM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

Pongoid

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Dude, I hate to say it, but you're trying to get all musically theoretical as a DJ and it's pointless, cuz what you're talking about is bullshit. Nice idea, though. See you're trying to select pieces to buy on the basis of key, having little or no idea of note progression, and then to top it, you're doing it on the basis of bpm, cuz if you're not, then you'll have to change pitch, thereby changing the tuning and key of a piece on the deck it self, and if you're just playing DAT's, then you can't match beats, and progressions get out of sync and make no musical sense, just a sort of mess, in key. Fine, you get all wierded out by things being out of tune with each other. You want to change that? Get some gear, and play your own stuff in tune. This is a perfect example as to why DJs for the most part are not REALLY musicians. Don't take that personally. Folks here can offer all the theory they want to you about cadence, which is quite important to a piece musically, however unless you learn how it works for yourself, the words we say here will be useless. To understand cadence, you must learn music, because simply knowing what cadence is without the rest of it is like being able to check if a car's air filter is dirty, without knowing how to open the hood, put gas in, or start the car, let alone drive it. Sad to say this, but unfotunately to do what you want to do as a DJ is for all intents and purposes impossible, and as a musician....you must learn to 'use your ears, peabrain'. That's just the breaks. Anybody telling you that you can learn cadence without learning note theory, harmony, rythm, tension and resolve, and lots of other wonderful stuff, is filling you full of shit. You want the knowledge? You must follow the path, my dear boy. Either that, or stick to being a fuckin DJ, and do it well as a DJ, using DJ techniques and DJ theory, and just keep rockin parties with other peoples' music. That's it. You will never find enough records that 'fit together' rythmicly, harmonically, and at the same tempo to EVER make a set. You can take this as a challenge if you want, but you're gonna find it a lot easier to just learn music, get the gear, and get dubplates cut for yourself if you want it all to fit together harmonically. I'll bet you like melodic trance, don't you?


Ape

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Message 5/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  12:11 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

damballah

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i tried filling him full of shit but there was no more room. he's already full.

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Message 6/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  12:27 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

ballbagface

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look pongoid ,u strike as a bit of a rude fucker

the guy probably hates trance as its shitheads music

why dont you shut your arse and give your mouth a chance

i dj and as for the key thing i think a key chart or something like that would be usefull,plus all the speeds i mix at are allaround 128 to 130 bpm so surely the key wont change that much over 2 bpm

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Message 7/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  01:33 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

Pongoid

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Hey, Einstein, I been spinnin records for years too, and you know what? The pitch changes. For your idea to work, every record you buy must be to the exact bpm, and the same or relative key, and have complimentary series of tensions and resolve or your shit will be out of tune, or just nonsensical. When you adjust the pitch control you adjust the bpm and what? you guessed it: THE TUNING. If you're out of tune, then your cute little idea for things that work together goes right out the fucking window. Yes I can be rude. I haven't even started yet. So for your idea to work, you must be extremely closedminded about the music you find. That's pathetic. Be a DJ or be a musician. There are rules and theory for both, and they are different approaches to different things. You obviously haven't learned either, so go and learn one or both, and then come back and bitch at me. Until then, be satisfied with the fact that your idea was shit and it's time to try a different approach. You think you were the first to come up with this idea? Think again. If it worked, there'd be a LOT more info about it, and it would be standard practice, but it doesn't. Get over it. Move on. Grow. Good luck.


Ape

yes it does change a bit over two BPM, enough to sound out of tune and annoying.

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Message 8/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  01:37 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

swanofnever

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okay, maybe pongoids a tad harsh, but what exactly are you trying to do? if it's just mixing, then:

use your ears -- if you know when one track sounds bad with another, than maybe you could turn on that thing inside your head (you know, your brain) and start using it -- figure out which notes are being played in one of the songs by listening then trying to find them on a keyboard, and figure out from that what key that song's in by looking up keys on the web (there are lots of places that'll give you scales, etc. -- check harmonycentral.com) and matching the notes in the song you're analyzing to the info you find.
then do that with the other song you're mixing, do it with all the songs you've got, and then, by OBSERVING and THINKING (the brain again), you will see which keys work with each other, and in what way. this is how we did it, and if you actually want to _learn_ so that you _understand_, so that you can (perish the thought) get creative or something, then i'm afraid you're going to have to put a bit of thought and effort into it, that's why they call it "music" and not "watching TV"... you're right, it _would_ be easier if you could look it up and not have to try a few different times before finding it, but the making mistakes part is a necessary component of the learning process, and without it you're never going to actually understand anything.

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Message 9/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  02:39 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

Ballboy

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actually pongoid i hate trance music and i never claimed to be a musician but i can put a record together mate, and as we all know there is more than one way of doing that . If i wanted complex solo parts i would use a sesseion musician just like if i need vocals i get a singer or use vocal samples. The theory of music is something i have only just started to look at and something i plan on learnig more about, but believe me you dont have to be a musical geneuis to put out a slamming house tune you just have to have vision ,ideas ,good ears and a good well rounded understanding of how a crowd in a club works, thats if your into club stuff pongroloid, and this is were having the djing experience helps. I'm sure you know pongoid that most of the top dance producers are dj's as well and this shows through on there productions and arrangements, however your probably into some sort of lame shit were that doesn't matter, so for now see ya later, i'm sur we'll talk again pongroloid.

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Message 10/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  03:24 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

ballbagface

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sorry ,but to go back to pongoids second lot of bollocks,listening to something slightly detuned and annoying is alot better than listening to your immature ,pathetic and unintresting viewpoints


if u have nothing useful to say then shut the fuck up

oh and by the way'spinnin records',thats a bit jimmy savillish isnt it

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Message 11/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  04:10 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

arska

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..here's a link for you ballface...
If you haven't got perfect pitch you need a reference to establish key. A guitar or a keyboard. The new Roland "groove approved" mc-307 appears to have a slider for controlling both bpm and pitch independently. One would guess it might be a useful thing for a dj for checking bpms and keys on records. But Of course, you should buy a fucking sampler instead.

After one discussion about scales and keys on this forum i started to check these on a mix cd that i got with some mag, it was muzik or mixmag; progressive house set by some bald bloke. Interestingly enough, those tunes were mostly "aiolian" minor scale based and often the guy mixed them along the circle of fifths! that is, from a to d to g etc. So the cadence thing apparently isn't bullshit! (i'm not a dj)

Is 2 bpm increase much? What about Showing films on tv?
European PAL tv shows films (24 frames/second) at 25 frame per second. That would mean if i'm correct that a 120 bpm tune on celluloid is 124.8 on telly... movies don't appear accelerated... slightly off topic, but interesting....

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Message 12/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  05:02 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

arska

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... try this, goes beyond the first link...

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Message 13/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  05:42 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

ballbagface

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look arska my name is 'BALLBAGFACE' not fucking 'ballface' so get it right

and i already have a fuckin sampler or 2

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Message 14/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  07:17 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

arska

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..who gives djs a bad name

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Message 15/19                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  03:20 AM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

ville

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Hey Pongoid!!
what's the matter with you? Ok it's obvious that the guy doesn't know shit about theory but isn't this kind of forum where you can ask advice?!?!
Arska's links on harmonic mixing does seem to make sense. (6% pitch increase/disincrease is the same as one halfsteps. (Cmajor with +6% is Dbmajor))
So cut that "fuck off rookie" -attitude , will u.

ville vaan

bytheway splurt1 is wicked

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Message 16/19                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  05:54 AM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

Jasper

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do you mean top dj's are producers too in that they release really boring tracks that are good for mixing rather than really good tracks that are difficult to mix?

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Message 17/19                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  07:38 AM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

ggehiere

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Not that I'm anxious to jump into the shit-storm that's
going on in this thread, but any DJs out there reading
this thread should probably realize that alot of
musicians don't like most DJs, who play records
produced by musicians like us, and get all the big
money and all the credit.

We have spent years buying gear, learning it,
experimenting and studying, instead of buying records
and playing parties.

And most of us don't want to see DJs turn producers,
using all their DJ connections to get their tracks
heard.

For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents on finding the
key of record (but not the pitch):

Play a section of the record over and over until you
find the corresponding note on the keyboard. Good luck,
because if th epitch is the slightest bit off between
the record and the keyboard, an untrained ear will
never find the right note. This is why everyone
recommends using your ears, and brain. It is easier,
but takes practise.

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Message 18/19                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  02:53 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

Pongoid

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Buttboy, and Ballbaglicker, what a combo. More ignorance than I would want to shake a stick at, you two are classic examples as to why DJ's get so little respect from musicians. You can get all the respect you want from producers who do most of your engineering for you, and make a buck off of you while you have your moment of fame, but from musicians, it's a different story. You both have come in here with half-baked, stupid ideas, that don't work, and when you get told that they are WRONG, you throw little hissy fits. So who's the uninteresting, ignorant twerp?

Ballbaglicker, don't even try to fuck with me, you miserable little turd. I'll eat you up like you weren't even there. The best you can do is say 'yeah...what he said!!!!' You and Buttboy can sit back, shut the fuck up, accept the fact that you are wrong, and try to learn from your fuck-ups, or you can lie there and suck on each other for all eternity, when you're not putting out boring, pointless, rehash, commercial poo, for other idiots like yourselves to buy. Either way, I really don't care, as you are both showing yourselves to be quite uninterested in learning, rather just shit stirring, so why don't you give me one good reason for not fucking off, and hiding like the useless little brainless dolts that you portray?


Ville:

The pitch to percent thing works for plain tones, but for pieces of music it's pointless, unless the bpms are the exact same percentage different, and the cadences are identical, or you just end up with a senseless mass of sound that doesn't work melodically or rythmicly. If you're gonna try to play by the rules, you have to know them to play by them, and know them even better than that to break them properly. these guys know neither, so they need to learn or do something else. My problem? They have offended me and wish to continue doing so. Plain and simple.


Ape


Ape

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Message 19/19                 Date: 08-Jul-00  @  03:01 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

sitar

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ggehiere got only part of it. If the pitch is the slightest bit off between the record and the keyboard someone with an untrained ear will probably find half a dozen pitches that sound just fine. You have to train your ear if you want to begin thinking about matching pitch to pitch. 2bpms will make a difference in the pitch. Think of it this way. Take 2 voices in a song and seperate them. Now change the pitch on one of them enough to cause a 2bpm difference between the timing of the 2 voices and see how little time it takes for them to go noticibly out of sync with eachother rythmically. Not long. So you might be willing to live with the slight difference in pitch and 2bpm is relative to your initial tempo, but as you said you are starting to learn theory which is great. Doing some eartraining with that will help too. Eartraining has helped me immensely. And I think Pongoid's car analogy is a good one.

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