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Subject: Vocal samples?


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Original Message 1/84                 Date: 14-Jun-00  @  11:41 PM   -   Vocal samples?

nickdej

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Anybody know of any sites that have vocal samples(whole songs) on them? I currently need some lyrics to mix with a song.

~n



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Message 2/84                 Date: 05-Jul-00  @  06:16 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

loopmusic

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When you find some - let me know!!



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Message 3/84                 Date: 05-Jul-00  @  08:51 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

damballah

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this confuses me. i understand sticking vocal samples in a piece of music as an element. lyrics, however, seem something someone should write and sing, not download. unless you're talking about a clandestine remix. what's your theory here.



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Message 4/84                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  01:01 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

nickdej

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I cant sing for shit and I dont own a mic,

I was referring to vocal construction cds(samples from them) which let you construct vocals with professional voices. I just would like somebody to tell me if they know of any sites?

What is a clandestine remix?

Is this more suited in my case?



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Message 5/84                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  01:49 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

Pongoid

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get a fuckin mic, and get a fuckin voice, yours or someone else's. Stop trying to be a DJ just looking to make another product, taking the easy way out. You want to be a musician? Walk the fucking walk. Get a pro if you want pro vocals, and treat them like a pro. Whether you realized it or not, you have offended at least one pro here with your unknowingly disrespectful attitude. Music and creative expression are just commodities to you. Vocal construction CDs are shit made by money-hungry fucks for money-hungry fucks. You want to say something in a piece? say it. Either hire a pro to say it for you, or learn to sing yourself, and say it, or you could just learn enough about music to say it without using words, but that takes learning music really well, and it doesn't sound like you have that kind of dedication right now.




Ape



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Message 6/84                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  08:18 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

pict

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I can't help but think that a song that had a vocal line made up of samples would sound completely shit or maybe you know something I don't.



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Message 7/84                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  10:50 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

deltasleep

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WILL EVERYBODY JUST CHILL OUT
geez. nobody can drop a message thats even remotely commercial without getting dumped on by pongoid or somebody else. This is not www.artsyfartsyelectronicmusic.com, its DANCEtech.com dance music is designed to make people dance, and it is dominated by commercialists. Aphrodite, need i say more. so hows about we all just relax and learn when to hold our tongues. its a neccessary evil, this commercialism.....bummer



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Message 8/84                 Date: 08-Jul-00  @  02:57 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

jj

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hate



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Message 9/84                 Date: 08-Jul-00  @  08:31 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

pict

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Hey this place is for letting your tongue go if you see a post that prompts you to respond positively/negatively who are you or anyone else(except Kilo)to say what should or shouldn't be posted.I don't think there's anything wrong with criticising crap practices or bemoaning the grip of mediocrity on music in a forum where music is the main topic of discussion.I generally try to offer advice at dancetech but I'm only human and I get pissed off sometimes,don't tell me I'm not allowed to be.



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Message 10/84                 Date: 08-Jul-00  @  08:37 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

pict

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Hey this place is for letting your tongue go if you see a post that prompts you to respond positively/negatively who are you or anyone else(except Kilo)to say what should or shouldn't be posted.I don't think there's anything wrong with criticising crap practices or bemoaning the grip of mediocrity on music in a forum where music is the main topic of discussion.I generally try to offer advice at dancetech but I'm only human and I get pissed off sometimes,don't tell me I'm not allowed to be.



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Message 11/84                 Date: 08-Jul-00  @  02:49 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

Pongoid

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YEAH!!! what he said!!!!



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Message 12/84                 Date: 08-Jul-00  @  09:48 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

pro

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I thought this was music discussion board where people helped each other, maybe Im wrong.

As for pro musicians who the fuck here is one of them?
Why are you wasting your time with us 'amateaurs?'

What the fuck do you think you are?




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Message 13/84                 Date: 08-Jul-00  @  09:48 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

pro

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I thought this was music discussion board where people helped each other, maybe Im wrong.

As for pro musicians who the fuck here is one of them?
Why are you wasting your time with us 'amateaurs?'

What the fuck do you think you are?




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Message 14/84                 Date: 09-Jul-00  @  10:21 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

pongoid

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Hey pro, this is a place for musicians to come and exchange knowledge, not promote the ripping off, and weakening of other musicians as individuals or as a community. I am a pro, and I'm trying to do as much as I can to help others prepare properly to make the leap, if they so choose. This doesn't mean teaching them how to fuck others over. Think about it.

What do I think I am? Just a human who acts with more intelligence than you, apparently.


Ape



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Message 15/84                 Date: 10-Jul-00  @  01:38 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

pro

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You call abusing somebody with a query intelligent?
That itself is stupid.

So is this your knowledge: "get a fuckin mic, and get a fuckin voice....Stop trying to be a DJ....You want to be a musician? Walk the fucking walk"

Dont sound like knowledge to me bro



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Message 16/84                 Date: 10-Jul-00  @  03:06 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

Gh

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Damn.. What is it with people who come in here with these attitudes?

Look, Pro, I've been reading this board for f'n long time and guys like Pongoid have provided a lot. People like him are why I keep coming back. He's a got a lot of useful information to share.. to teach. But, he's not goin' to teach someone to take the easy way or to ripoff others or whatever.

Crap, guys.. Most of the "serious", professional or not, musicians here who share are very similar in that respect. It has nothing to do with being artsy-fartsy or non-commercial. Just find the threads about Xoxos and his tomato piece or his recent one "moment clutter" or something. We're talking stuff intended for commercial yet he stills share a lot even about making of those tracks themselves.

If ya can't handle someone coming straight out and saying your query is fucked, you're not going to make it long on this board nor in music.

Reading the initial question for the n-th time, I keep getting this vibe of "I'm one person and I wanna pretend I can do everything on my own, but.. oh wait.. I can't sing." Sometimes it's good to say, "Shit, I can't do that," and then to go out looking for someone to help ya out. It's much better than relying on a crutch (like vocal sample cds or sites). Not only will you learn more, you may get more out of it - connections, friendships, people to bounce ideas off, etc.

I know if I ever need a vocal track I can find someone either directly or through people I know. On top of things, if I'm short on a piece of gear I can usually find someone who'd loan something out for a session or two to fill in a need. I don't have impressive connections either yet I can do the above.. if needed.



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Message 17/84                 Date: 10-Jul-00  @  10:42 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

flipgibbs

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this is ridiculous. you people are crucifying this guy for asking a perfectly reasonable question. i mean, shit, what the hell is really wrong with using vocal sample CDs? they're "made by money hungy fucks"? well, hate to break it to you, but so is everything you own in life, undoubtedly including all your gear. i guess you can't use that anymore. whoops. quit trying to take the easy way out... build your own damn sampler!

well now i'm just being uppity. but my point is this: who the hell is to say which means to an end are more valid than any others when it comes to something like art? (excluding, i suppose, mugging people to pay for your shit or something, but that's just me). i hate to bust out the visual art analogies, but that's my background too, so i will. it's like collage vs. painting. somebody brought this up in another thread, and it illustrated what i'm about to say: a lot of people seem to think that collage is somehow an inferior artform to painting. that's bullshit. sometimes you can paint to get your message across, but sometimes you need collage. but i'll tell you one thing for damn sure, creating an image in which you've used "appropriated imagery" sends an entirely different message than one that you've painted yourself. and the message isn't necessarily "I suck at painting," either. to use another stock example, do we consider Andy Warhol less of an artist because he "ripped off" the work that some graphic designer at Cambell's Soup did? well, maybe you do. but (and i'm reaching here), if it weren't for people like him you probably wouldn't be making electronic music today.

to get back on topic, using "premade lyrics" seems perfectly legit to me. after all, isn't it more important WHAT you're saying, rather than HOW you're saying it? now, granted, i personally would think it a little lame if someone were to use said lyrics to crank out all those typical samples you hear in DnB and whatnot. the "drop the bass!!" and "ooooooh yeah!!" and "I feel it!!" and "break it down!!" and you get the idea. but unlike one of the posters above (sorry i can't remember the name), i can imagine something really awesome happening by splicing together words from different voices on a sample cd to come up with some original lyrics. or using one of those stupid "talking text" programs to make it sound like Stephen Hawking was my vocalist. does that somehow prevent you from being a "real" musician? i doubt it.

as for pongoid, (and the following has been said elsewhere as well), you don't "own" music. furthermore, who died and made you the moral guardian of the music creation process? i mean, you can have your opinions. that's fine. but this whole "my way or the highway" attitude isn't particularly compelling, you know what i mean? although i guess it works for you since you're the king of the hill around here. now i really don't mean to insult, because it sounds like you know what you're talking about, and you obviously have the respect of the people on this board (myself included, believe it or not), and you've clearly helped a lot of people on here as well (again, myself included). but, generally speaking, it seems like you've got this frigging gigantic chip on your shoulder that you're incapable of unloading. maybe a DJ wronged you in the past or something, i don't know, but personally (it's just me!), i don't think it's particularly cool or productive to continuously drop the proverbial hammer on every not-as-experienced-as-you musician that posts on here. we may be a little ignorant, but that's no reason to cut us to pieces. it seems like you're just looking to start fights.

anyways, enough of this nonsense. pongoid (or anyone else), i seriously not trying to offend you. i just wanted to throw some thoughts out there, since i feel like this is a topic i know something about. please don't be angry with me, because i'll probably want your help in the future!  

peace out!

ps. these threads are pretty cool. nothing better than discussion that makes you want to speak your mind!



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Message 18/84                 Date: 10-Jul-00  @  03:38 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

ggehiere

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Not to distract the discussion away from it's current
point of focus, but I have some advice for nickdej.

The advice to get a microphone and a singer is probably
your best advice. Find some nice girl with a decent
voice who's willing to take a chance with your gig.
You're more likely to get what you want. That's what I
did and I got a great track, many many different takes
to cull the best from, and some cool out-takes I've
scavenged for samples. It was easy too, I used a 75$CDN
microphone and got great results.

Failing that, there are samples available, but be
warned: they've been done to death and any musician
will recognize them instantly. Check out
samplenet.co.uk, which has a few free vocals samples,
mostly the cheesy diva 'no no no' and 'hey dj...'
stuff.

For a more eclectic vibe, I've seen voices of india,
and so forth for sale in the back of Future Music. And
there's some Chinese sample CDs available too. If you
really can't afford to buy CDs, I suggest getting on
Hotline (bigredh.com) and looking for what you want
pirated in the underbelly of the internet.

If you want robot voices, pick up a new or old
Macintosh and go to town with the 'Fred' voice. Aphex
Twin (!), Radiohead and Marilyn Manson have all used
the Mac voices for various tracks. It'll get you some
words without a voice. Not a vocoder, but



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Message 19/84                 Date: 10-Jul-00  @  05:20 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

Marc

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AnalogueX does a cute little voice thingy as well :o)

The majority of sample CD's will just make you sound like the herd, record yourself and speed it up (run it through Autotune and you'll never guess it's you !)

Marc.



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Message 20/84                 Date: 11-Jul-00  @  05:05 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

nickdej

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Cheers for the advice, I was actually rethinking about vocal cds due to the substantial abuse I recieved in this thread.

But then again the world does not evolve around pongoid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robot voices are cool, where can I get software for my PC?

Also what software is good for just vocal effects?

many thanks



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Message 21/84                 Date: 11-Jul-00  @  08:04 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

ggehiere

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Nickdej, here's some more tips:

For the ultimate robot voice, use a vocoder. Lots of
gear has one built in (the Nova does, I think, and the
JP8080 from Roland), or you can use software, such as
Orange Vocoder. Pull out that search engine to find it,
or start at the Shareware Music Machine
(http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/). Look there for PC
software that speaks, (Mac have it built in, that's why
I recommended one).

A friend of mine just found a 'speak and spell' and
sampled it for some of his tracks, which works too.

Have you thought about checking out Mp3.com? You could
either find a female vocalist in your region or town to
hook up with, who would proabbaly love getting exposure
to a new audience, or find good tracks that you'd like
to remix. The author of said track might also be
interested in reaching an expanded audience and lend a
recording of just the vocals to you. Think KLF and that
country singer whose name eludes me at the moment



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Message 22/84                 Date: 11-Jul-00  @  09:51 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

swanofnever

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as someone said above, if you want speak n' spell, analogX put out free software emulation... check their web site...
there's free vocoder software (zerius? something likr that...) but frankly it's a major pain -- you can get front-ends for it but they're fairly buggy... i'd recommend the vocoder in AcidWav, or find a cheap zoom 1201 used (has a vocoder + about 400 other fx)



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Message 23/84                 Date: 11-Jul-00  @  12:26 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

siva (justinlofling

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What the hell does all of this have to do with Music Theory??? Anyway, to the original poster, the link above is for the Sound Effects Gallery. They have a huge library of almost any sound imaginable. I was running sound for my school's play last year and needed baseball crowd to cheer after a crack of a bat. Anyway I was able to get a crack of a baseball bat and some crowd noise from that site. I took those samples into Cubase, got one of the actors to be the announcer. Threw a lowpass filter over his voice to give it that old time radio effect and I had what I needed. I tried getting the samples of the crowd and bat off of movies, but there were always some fucker saying something. The site above helped me out tremendously. Only downfall is you have to pay for the samples, which are in UK pounds and are pretty expensive. But if you have a deadline and limited resources they may be able to help to out. Of course you get to preview the sounds (so one would think of recording the previews to avoid paying, but the previews are shitty quality). Hope this helps.

Also, don't worry about what others think of you and the way you do things. If thats your way so be it, but don't cheat yourself. This is a great site with a lot of great contributors (Pongoid is one of them). People here will speak their minds, which I think is a good thing (most of the time). You will learn how to take harsh criticism well :-). Don't be discouraged from unwanted comments. Stick around.

Justin



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Message 24/84                 Date: 11-Jul-00  @  12:38 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

Gh

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Another robotic voice tip.

Go out to a toy store and pick up one of those children's bullhorns that have a couple of buttons to change the sound. Talk/sing into it while recording it through a microphone. Apply some basic effects in CoolEdit or Soundforge like reverb, echo, etc. Maybe apply a DirectX plugin to it. After this, you'll have instant robotic voice that can either be harsh or quite dreamy.

A friend did this during a live show and it was just absolutely cool. He used the same setup as above, but applying the effects using an fx box instead of the sample editor.

Nickdej, the biggest expense for you in this is the microphone - around $60-100. Yet you'll have one for the future to use for whatever you need. If that's still too much for you at the moment, run out to Radioshack and pick up one their cheapies. Again, my friend who did the above robotic voice technique used a cheap ass Radioshack microphone.

It all goes to show that it's how you work the sound, not always what equipment you have.



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Message 25/84                 Date: 11-Jul-00  @  10:42 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

Pongoid

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Flip, what is my chip? When you've played out enough times, or just spent enough time seeing live acts, writing music, offering it to others, etc., and spent enough time around DJ's at parties, clubs, and shops you will see the dynamics of the business, and how grossly musicians and the art itself are mistreated on a regular basis by most everbody involved. Then you will understand, and probably carry the same chip.

Who died and made me Moral Guardian of the musical creation process? Get a clue. Where did you get your ideas about artisitic integrity from? A crackerjack box? Maybe you don't give a shit about music, what it can do, what it does, why it works, and the importance of progress in the art. Maybe you just don't understand these things. I do. I also care enough about others to try to point them in directions that will help them grow in a positive, non-exploitative manner, even if I come off as unpleasant at times.

Exploitation, and lack of passion make music just another watered down commodity, and weaken everything that every musician does. It cheapens music, makes everyone take it for granted. How can you not see that? I don't understand how that can't occur to you. How dare you attack me for caring about the artform and the efforts involved enough to stand up and call 'bullshit' when I see it? What the fuck is wrong with you?


King of the hill, my ass. I'm just another musician, out there doing it. The fact that folks here respect what I have to say is no small thing in my book, and might have something to do with the fact that I've been making music for quite a while, and posting here for years, literally. King of the Hill is Kilo. Always has been. His site. Honestly, the fact that he hasn't booted me off it once or twice sometimes amazes even me.

I'm not going to go into the Andy Warhol debate again. That was last month.

Young Nick, the world certainly does not revolve around me, but I've revolved with it enough to learn a thing or two, and one is to not sit there with my thumb up my ass when I've been offended. You just trounced right on in here, not really feeling out what folks are about, and without thinking suggested something very offensive to people that take what they do quite seriously. Wouldn't you be offended if I asked you where I could find fuck pics of your cousin and a donkey for sale, or free on the web? And you think I'm the asshole? Come on. Just accept the fact that you fucked up, and said the wrong thing in the wrong place, pissed a few folks off, take your lickins, and enjoy the opportunity to learn something beyond such petty goals as simply selling a piece of shit track to rock a dancefloor of idiots for five minutes with the same old garbage sounds and ideas as the last ten guys. Really, there's more to music than that. If you can't see that, then fuck you very much. You don't need to be posting here because you're a lost cause. You're not even worthy of being a DJ, let alone a producer, and even less a musician. So what's it gonna be?


Ape



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Message 26/84                 Date: 12-Jul-00  @  12:46 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

flipgibbs

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well, i disagree. now, i may be new to the music scene, but i went to art school. i know all about the self-righteous nonsense you're spouting. from my experience, when it comes to art, people can become so desperate to convince themselves that what they're doing is important that they become completely embittered when their "devotion" to their art is somehow challenged. not that they're not devoted, or that their art isn't important, but they become too caught up in worrying about just how devoted/important they are versus every other slob trying to put out a track or paint a picture or whatever. it's happened to friends of mine. they're bitter. they're great painters, but they're bitter, and i think it hurts them.

if you ask me, your attitude runs counter to the very nature of art. what do they always say? "there's no such thing as bad art?" so why get angry about it? if, in your mind, everyone elses methods are inferior, then so be it. but believe me, they're not "hurting" the great miasma that is art by doing what they're doing. there's no such thing as cheapening art. that's the problem with artists. once you get into that mode (of being an artist), you forget that most of the world's denizens aren't in the same mode. whether it's music or visual arts or whatever, people just want to hear/see things that make them happy. most of the time they don't care how the object of their affection got there, they're just happy it's there. that's the beauty of it. frankly, it's only the artists, at odds with one another, who care about the process (generally speaking). but isn't the point of making music to have people listen to it? so if this guy uses a vocal CD and bangs out a track that a bunch of "idiots" go mental to, what did he do wrong? he's pleased some "idiots?" give me a break and get off your damn high horse. do you think they give a rat's ass whether or not he used a sample CD?

it's as if you and i were lumberjacks, and you got pissed off because i cut down my tree with a chainsaw while you cut down yours with a hand saw. guess what buddy, the end result is two chopped up trees either way. so what's the point in complaining about how they came to be cut down? my sneaking suspicion is that it all boils down to a fear that someone is moving in on your territory without, in your mind, paying their dues. but, at the risk of repeating myself, art doesn't care how it was made.

peace.



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Message 27/84                 Date: 12-Jul-00  @  01:50 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

nickdej

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Pongoid

Like I said before I asked a question, and I got abuse. What the hell am I susposed to do?

Why are you so anti commercial, ie people who have made it in the industry?

You got ALOT of people against what you said on this thread dude, think.



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Message 28/84                 Date: 12-Jul-00  @  03:26 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

Pongoid

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One of us missed something here. I'm not saying that my methods are the be all end all, and the rest is inferior, dude. You're totally missing the point here. You're treating this form of music like some packaging for a drug experience that you just throw away after the high is gone and the club is closed. You think it's cool to just create some throw-away piece of shit just for some cheap high and a couple bucks? When did that become cool? What happened to spending a lifetime honing your craft, whatever it may be, always striving to better oneself? Is that just too archaic an ideal for kids in this day and age?



Who said there's no such thing as bad art? Whoever they were, they are full of shit up their eyebrows. There's bad/crap art in any medium, and it's the exact same kind of cheap, effortless, disposable package, that gives you no feeling whatsoever, like background noise, that you seem to be espousing as acceptable and valid. To my understanding, the purpose of art is to convey a feeling, first and foremost. The feeling is up to interpretation by the individual, but if there is no feeling, no reaction, no emotional response to a piece, then it IS BAD ART. It is a failure. It is useless. It is simply wasted energy. The only thing it might succeed in is showing the creator, and others what mistake not to repeat. Even that is a maybe.

I never went to artschool, but I know plenty of pretentious musicians, and most of them are that way cuz deep down inside, they really don't care about the artform; they simply care about the image others hold of them.

Method is not important in art? Have you never seen a piece with accompanying documentation/imagery showing how a piece was made, and seen that the method itself was art?

To use your analogy of chainsaws and axes, it would seem a little more accurate to say that yes, two trees got cut down, and both were made into tables. The one cut down with the chainsaw ended up as particle board and although it held the first round of drinks, it got a little damp and fell apart into something utterly useless in five minutes, while the one cut with the axe was honed into a solid top table and will stand the test of time.

Yeah, great lets make the idiots dance? Nah, lets offer the idiots some intelligence. Instead of continually promoting the idea that you have to be an idiot(do loads of chemicals, wear the pretty clothes, be better than everyone else) and do idiot stuff, why not try to change the philosophy a little? Why not create something with a little depth and complexity, that demands a bit of contemplation, makes the listener think a little, rather than pushing him/her in the other direction (i.e. thoughtlessness, base behavior)? Really, dude, you're saying it's cool to continue programming people to be dumb, and to me that't just wrong and fucked up. I don't feel that way. I think it's cool to make people think, and maybe wake them up a little bit, help them to be a little more aware of what's going on in the world around them. Art/music is the vehicle, because the message isn't something you can just put into words and expect to sink in. I would hope you know this.
I don't know too much, but there are a few things I do know. 1) this world is fucked up right now, and needs help. 2) help requires awareness 3) people need to be deprogrammed out of their torper, and woken up to the fact that it takes everyone, including themselves to make an improvement/change. 4) music is the most effective and benign tool I have to accomplish this goal. 5) ignorance/closedmindedness weakens the effectiveness of the tool.

I could go on for hours. I disagree with your ethics. I find them fundamentally flawed. That's not just some egotistical remark. I find the core values behind your comments to be in conflict with mine. I don't need to convince myself of the importance of the medium. It's import is self evident. I don't need to convince myself of the power of the medium. I can raise thousands, even tens of thousands of dollars with this medium to accomplish a goal or aid in fixing a problem, and see the energy at work.

Have you ever played a benefit for a charity? Pulled hundreds even a thousand paying/donating hedz through a door with your name to help fix what you recognize as a problem (hunger/homelessness)? That's what convinces me of the import of the medium, not some fucking ego boosting interview in some stuffy magazine, or the odd bit of asskissing from the audience, but rather seeing several hundred people eat good healthy food that might otherwise not eat so well, or starve. I'm not bitter, I'm just disappointed in your shortsightedness, and your underestimation of my motives and values. I ain't one of you lost artschool friends. I'm a guy out there in the shit, who's been out there in the shit for a long time now, trying to do the right thing, and maybe show others a bit about how and what while I'm at it. Think.


Ape



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Message 29/84                 Date: 12-Jul-00  @  03:53 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

krisgot

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If you can't find vocals, try sampling bits from a song and use it with whatever comes along, pads, bass, etc. Sometimes the instruments add something good to the loop. Avoid anything with drums, though. You can isolate the vocals to some extent by using graphic EQ and boosting the mid range.


Pongoid, I must agree with deltasleep. Dance music or electronic music for that matter is not brain surgery and it's hardly even art. So if you're such a busy pro, how come you're on this site all the time, slagging people off?



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Message 30/84                 Date: 12-Jul-00  @  04:14 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

Pongoid

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Kris,
Maybe you don't put a lot of effort into your pieces, if you have ever done any. You sound like a DJ, and a fucking scumbag one at that. Electronic music not brain surgery? You ever study psychoacoustics, additive harmonic synthesis, or any serious engineering beyond turning up the channel on your scratchmaster? I didn't think so. I post here, cuz I feel like it, and I don't need a day job. Now why don't you run along and get fucked? You definately don't belong here. Barely an art? Dude, you shame yourself. I pity your closed eyes, and deaf ears. I'm sure that there aren't too many people here who you haven't offended with you ignorant and heinous remarks. It will come back to you, rest assured.

Ape



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Message 31/84                 Date: 12-Jul-00  @  09:08 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

damballah

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Hey, guys, at the end of the day, do you wanna be the one who spoke up for what was right or do you wanna be the one who was complacent about bullshit?

Go back to the original post. I can't even IMAGINE that my lyrics are already pre-written, pre-sung and out there just waiting for me to download. When I work my stuff, I'm delving in self-expression and not trying to just crank out some DJ product. If you don't craft your stuff as art, it isn't gonna be art. Period.



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Message 32/84                 Date: 12-Jul-00  @  11:44 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

swanofnever

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just had to add:
why are you using vocs anyway? this is DANCE music, and cheesy house/hardcore aside, there's no need for vocals... all they do is ruin the abstract nature of the music and in turn add the same subjective overtones that've plagued music for the past few decades... i say unless it's not recongnizable as a human voice, don't use it cause it really breaks the feeling....
then again this is just my humble opinion, but really aside from a few good examples (i.e i think it's called "comin back"... crystal method anyway) all vocals do is prop up what would otherwise be a lame, repetitive track (firestarter)... i just personally love the fact that popular music's finally getting abstract again... and i hate lame throw-backs who need to have a "message" in their music. i've never understood dance vocals...



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Message 33/84                 Date: 12-Jul-00  @  11:59 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

:)

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y'all kick ass

pongoid & damballah do make art, i have heard at least 5 or 6 tracks out of each of them. not always was it as easily accessible as music that i would otherwise surround myself with (& often do) but that's probably just it then.



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Message 34/84                 Date: 12-Jul-00  @  03:41 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

siva

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Trust me there is BAD ART! That love all attitude is just hippie nonsense. Anyway, using an entire vocal track is pretty lame, but you could cut it up and do a bunch of stuff with one I suppose. Did you want to remix a song?

I actually understand both sides to this argument.

Justin

Again, what the hell does all of this have to do with music theory???



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Message 35/84                 Date: 12-Jul-00  @  10:53 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

krisgot

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If you want to call dance music art, fine. But remember that dance music was invented by DJs for the sole purpose of making people lose it on the floor. Electronic music is art to some people, commercial pop to others. You said it yourself, Pongoid, the feeling of music is interpreted by each individual. I think that should be respected. The music of Westlife doesn't stir a lot of feelings in, me but seems to stir quite a bit in some nubile females around the planet. So is that art?


I have a day job. I can't play an instrument. I love music. I want to make some. I use a computer and synths. It's that simple. Now don't tell me I'm the only one here who fits that decsription.


Of course there's bad art. In order to have good art there's got to be some bad art too, right? Everybody thinks the music they are making is good art. So it's sad when people come in here and ask questions and they are met with bitterness and hosility. There's room for everybody. Pongoid, just relax, man. Get laid. It helps the creativity.



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Message 36/84                 Date: 14-Jul-00  @  05:27 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

nickdej

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Pongoid

I see your point of view, myself I do not claim substantial music talents, you probably know alot more than me on the subjest. I am like Krisgot, I make music because I love it.

And as for the whole vocal thing, I just wanted to try new technigues to make my music better.

And I remind you, the only person that judges my music creativity and technigues is me and my friends, not you.






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Message 37/84                 Date: 14-Jul-00  @  05:06 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

casparproject

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Hmm, Krisgot. You're wrong. Dance music was not invented by DJ's. That's a very bold and ignorant statement, and you obviously know very little about the history of music if you think the first danceable electronic music was put together by DJ's.

Peaceout,

Peter



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Message 38/84                 Date: 15-Jul-00  @  05:14 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

jj

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Pongoid oh pongoid, you are a prodigous typer, and it would be nice to participate in a dialog with you, but you must understand the medium is the message, and your medium here is word, and you use very many hateful words, your message boils down to hate, no matter your chivalrous intentions towards art's chastity.

I'd also recommend some classes on art theory starting around the beginning of the 1900's, as this seems to be where you lost the plot. Much interesting thought has happened since, and if you began to engage it, I'm sure your disposition would improve, along with the quality of your tracks.

No undue offense intended to you but I see you constructing mental barricades around yourself at all times, these barricades inhibit new thought from entering your person, which in turn, inhibits the outward flow of new thought. I know that you see your passion as your strong point, but really it comes across as insecurity. Seems as though that insecurity has got a hold of you my man, and won't let go. No manner of success in your music biz is going to assuage those feelings.

jj signing off:

begin barricade construction now! whoops, you've already started.



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Message 39/84                 Date: 15-Jul-00  @  10:39 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

flipgibbs

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Heh, i'm glad someone agrees with me. good point jj. frankly, i was too tired of hearing "I can't believe you're such a moron, ass!" to continue posting in this thread.  

peace.



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Message 40/84                 Date: 16-Jul-00  @  07:44 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

Pongoid

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jj,
Had a very good response for you, but just erased it all when I went to type a capital w and hit control by mistake, so your reply will have to wait, but to make a long story short, dude you've got me all wrong. No hate here, just frustration. Barriers? Discuss that later. Art theory classes? Time? Insecurity, less than you think and more than you know. Maybe you should come to the AMF and we'll talk about it all face to face. Properly. As for Warhols and wankers, fuck them and their excuses.

Ape


Ape



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Message 41/84                 Date: 17-Jul-00  @  03:16 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

jj

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have to say in regards to warhol, dude wasn't playing tricks on art, playing tricks on someone else entirely.



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Message 42/84                 Date: 17-Jul-00  @  01:46 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

Pongoid

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is that art?



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Message 43/84                 Date: 17-Jul-00  @  08:47 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

Breakerbox

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I agree on this with both sides... i hate presampled scrtaches and some vocals...
but i think pongoid and damballah both have the wrong attitude.
you can make a pint but you shouldn't be mean to person who asked the question, and if you think your attitude was right why did you get so many shittalk, and you answered them too... as far as ant warhol goes...mmm... i think he kind of sucks but i don think anyone who likes him are stupid bitch ass wankers.... get the point?



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Message 44/84                 Date: 17-Jul-00  @  09:46 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

breakerbox

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if i could only spell...



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Message 45/84                 Date: 17-Jul-00  @  10:56 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

damballah

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I wasn't abusive. You just mad about that XL-1 thread, right?

Pop Art traces its ancestry back to dada, Marcel Duchamp in particular. Warhol was a very good draughtsman before he started producing the work he's famous for. Yes, it is art. I'm not going to do an art history essay here, though.



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Message 46/84                 Date: 17-Jul-00  @  11:21 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

d...

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You sure I'm not a stupid bitch ass wanker?



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Message 47/84                 Date: 17-Jul-00  @  11:39 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

krisgot

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caspar. Yes, a bold statement but I stand by it. There is absolutely no doubt that the DJ and DJ-culture has played an essential part in the dance music we hear today. Like it or not. Everything changed in the mid-80's when cuts, scratching and of course the drum-machine enabled DJ's to create their own sounds suitable for the dance floor in stead of just playing records. This was in Chicago, Detroit and later Belgium, London and Ibiza and pretty soon these DJ's were collaborating with musicians and producers and turning out their own records. Now before this time there was music and people danced to it, but it wasn't intended for the discoteque as is the case now. Sure there are excellent dance music artists, who are not DJ's, but if you look at the high quality acts of today, you'll most often see a DJ in there some where. I.e. Underworld, Faithless, EBTG, Beck, etc.


Now the genre has evolved and there are so many hybrids. Today, one could probably not call dance music the expression of DJ's alone. They themselves have become commercialized pop stars. The thing about true dance music is that it is faceless, nameless and constantly evolves into new forms. But the early influence of DJ's was always there. The dance genre feeds off "real" music with sequencing and sampling, but now you see well established musicians getting into techno and house. The circle is completed. I'm sure you will agree that there are intelligent forms of music made by DJ's, just as there is a lot a trash too.


I wish I was as ellequ.... elliquen.... er... good with English as jj, but unfortunately I'm not a native speaker.



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Message 48/84                 Date: 18-Jul-00  @  03:49 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

jj

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Well pongoid, yeah it is art. Don't think I'm a 'fan' of Warhol's, and I havn't really engaged his thought by any means, and perhaps (though I'm not convinced) dt is no place for an art lecture, but I'll just drop a morsel of thought on you.

Duchamp's vision (intellectual) was that of re/de contextualization. I think you'll find behind every great 'discovery' or 'creation' an act of recontextualization. Warhol picked up on this most potent of potent thoughts and continued the process, by de/re contextualizing just about anything he could get his hands/mind on: M. Monroe, tomato soup, empire state building, elvis, and on and on.

Of course, this is why I asked you about Koonts (and all the rest) in another thread, cause this guy is taking this power (recontext) to the extreme: Framing a nike poster of moses malone for example.

Let me put this in simple terms: if you and I were duking it out, and I could drop you with a kick, punch, trip combo, I'd be strong, now if you could drop me with a flick of your pinky's fingernail, surely you'd be the most potent mo fo around, ya? (though you'd prob be the queerest sonbitch about, anyway) I look at these fruits (warhol, koonts, though koonts did try to bulk up for his nudie photographes with his wife) as the strongest fools around, cause they don't need a canvas to splater their paint on in a J.D. stabalized fit of suppressed homosexual insecurity (read: j. pollack), but instead need a frame, or mearly a buisness card. Koonts with that silly poster jeapordizes: nike, the "corporation", professional athletics, race, nationalizm, polotics, economics, religion... with a simple frame. A frame my man, a frame. I see this as a powerfully intelligent act, which is indeed, by any standard, an act of creation through recontextualization.

This is why I'm so interested in sampling, and Djing(not that I dj). Sampling is the act of recontextualizing sound, is it not? And yes, in your sampler you can crunch, mangle, and whatever your sound into bits, but this really is infact just recontextualizing the original sound. Djing as well, (at it's best) is a similar act of recontextualizing through juxtoposition, sequencing, ect.

Now really, I'm on your side when it comes to all the foolio's out there that wanna be big boys, but shit man, I think there are far more interesting things out there to talk about, fer example...

Recontextualizing the lyrics for a song by cutting, pasting, sampling, juxtoposing, damn whatever you can think of. Now, the original post up there is not on par with the aformentioned pillars of contemporary thought, but do you wanna put limits on what that guy can achieve, or limit his futur posibilities? Who knows where his interests will take him! He could be sitting there listening to his canned lyrics, and receive inspiration for new directions in musical thought that can change the path of global consciousness. Yeah? Yes! Probably not, but I wouldn't put limits on any human's ability to see new posibilies. Possibilities, perhaps, he releases that song with canned lyrics, and some kid hears it and says this is the most inauthentic piece of shit I've ever heard, I'm gonna make music that means something... (read: Pongoid). Possibilites, too many possibilities out there.

So my suggestion to nickdej is read all these posts, and follow all of the good advice: get a mic, learn to sing, make contacts with other like minded people, meet super sexy bitches with great voices and low self esteem, and all the rest, but surely go out and download those canned lyrics, go download pongoid's tunes and start ripping that fucker off, just do it all (the marching band really starts to pump it here) but most of all, be fruitful and multiply. Multiply your options, possibilies, thoughts, actions, loves, tunes, romances, CREATE.



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Message 49/84                 Date: 18-Jul-00  @  10:50 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

breakerbox

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I like sampling like the way dj shadow in endroducing no the ones on car commercial all lifted from 2 sample cds and put together in acid or something...
and no i dont think youare a stupid bitch ass wanker etc.
english is not my native language either...



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Message 50/84                 Date: 18-Jul-00  @  11:52 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

pict

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Hmmm! JJ I think it's a bit presumptious to say that we'll find "behind every great 'discovery' or 'creation' an act of recontextualization" where do you draw the line between plagiarism or plain old chancing your luck with a gullible audience and de/recontextualisation.There's quite a difference between the highly skilful drawings of Gustav Dore or Dürer or even the symbolic Art found in the Lasceaux caves and many modern "artists" idea of the concept alone being the Art.I don't think the average punter thinks of dead sheep being displayed in formaldehyde filled glass cases as Art maybe a few intellectuals can theorise and spout about it but they have fuck all common sense if they call that Art.

I do agree with your go forth and multiply sentiment though far better to create how ever small and insignificant your creation may be,but always be prepared for criticism when you place it before an audience.



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Message 51/84                 Date: 19-Jul-00  @  09:58 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

flipgibbs

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i think the point is that there is no difference between plagiarism and recontextualization. it could be the last resort of an unskilled artist, or the sincerest form of flattery, or something entirely different, but it's certainly recontextualization either way. admittedly, the new context may not be universally meaningful (for example, if no one is familiar with the original image/sound/whatever), but i don't think that means it's absolutely meaningless. it all depends on where you're coming from.

and yeah, there is a big difference between Durer (one of my favorites, btw) and dead sheep, but by what standards do we label either one "art" and the other "not art"? at the risk of sounding presumptuous, i posit that the point of art is to show you something (and i don't mean "show" in the strictly visual sense). it might be something that you don't see every day, like dead sheep, or something that you see pretty often, like a soup can, or just a well illustrated image. but, having said that, art is very much in the eye of the beholder as much as it is a product of the artist. that's the beauty of it. so, having said THAT, how can anything possibly be regarded as "not art" when there are several billion people on this planet who've all got their own interpretations.

i guess the bottom line is that the word "art" is a pretty loaded term. it's also pretty abstract. an "artist" can be anything: a painter or printmaker like Durer, or a guy who floats dead sheep in vats of fromaldehyde. maybe we should just banish the word "artist" and use more specific terms like "painter," "printmaker," "sheep floater," "sound recontextualizer," or whatever the hell it is that we all do.

peace.



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Message 52/84                 Date: 19-Jul-00  @  11:43 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

damballah

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"what are you majoring in?"

"sheep floating."

;)



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Message 53/84                 Date: 19-Jul-00  @  12:31 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

casparproject

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Hmm, Krisgot, I can see how it could be viewed in that way, and I agree that DJ culture had something to do with it, but I still disagree thatthey were the cause of it. think of it this way, Disco and Funk were really the forefathers of the first electronic dance music right? Tight drum loops, strict basslines and a general danceable groove were the main charachteristics of this stuff. If you listen to a lot of the first music made with drum machines, it's really an extension of the strictness of these genres, combined with an electronic coldness. Acts such as New Order, and Kraftwork basically layed down the foundation for what was to come. You can see where we disagreee, and its one of those things that I think could be seen either way, or both ways.

Peaceout,

Peter



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Message 54/84                 Date: 20-Jul-00  @  12:43 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

pict

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Here are 3 definitions of art

1:The superior ability that is attained by study and practice and observation

2:The creation of beautiful or significant things

3:The products of human creativity; works of art collectively

I tend to believe that number 2 is the main purpose of art.In my culture in the past great store was set by making everyday objects beautiful that was Arts main function because of this idea of Art beautiful illuminated manuscripts were created and fabulously ornate carvings were inscribed in stone along with beautiful metalwork and jewelry being created.Music and the musicians who played it were respected and honoured for their skills and talent.I'm sure the same could be said of many cultures but the difference today is that all it seems to take for anything to be called art is that it draws a reaction however momentary.

Most of this pseudo art requires little or no skill to produce and by it being called art diminishes respect for skilful and truly original artists.As Flipgibbs said there is no difference between plagiarism and recontextualisation then why should these recontextualists be lauded for their blatant theft of others ideas I think people shouldn't be scared to shout that the emperor has no clothes on when he's walking about waving his knob in your face.We may all hold subjective opinions as to what art is good or bad but there is also a common ground we can judge art by called objectivity I think it would be nice if more people would make use of it.Oh and there's a wee perfect fifth on the keyboard(it is a music theory forum isn't it?;)



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Message 55/84                 Date: 20-Jul-00  @  02:13 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

krisgot

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Absatively, Caspar. Disco and funk were founding fathers. It's just that I don't see it being electronic since they used traditional intstruments. I guess it's how you define "electronic". I agree totally, it was the fusion of cold electronica and warm soul that created the dance music we know today. And I think it's that Ying and Yang that has kept it alive for all those years. Just when you think dance music is over, dying out.... it takes a new turn. Wonderfull.



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Message 56/84                 Date: 20-Jul-00  @  02:44 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

casparproject

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The thing is that though disco and funk were not electronic, they were drum-loop based (many disco loops were just 16 bars of drums repeated) just like techno. I personally feel that it was largely the dawn of loop-based music, combined with the snowball effect of technological advances that gave us this music. DJ's I feel are the ones that happened to be listening when this occured, and picked up on it, however I cannot give them much credit for creating the genre.

Peaceout,

Peter



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Message 57/84                 Date: 20-Jul-00  @  09:55 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

flipgibbs

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there's no such thing as objectivity, as far as i'm concerned. but that's opening an entirely new can of worms   i mean, you talk about common ground, but that may only be the ground that you and your friends/family/whatever stand on. and true, there's probably common ground that large segments of society stand on, but it certainly doesn't encompass everyone. take as a related example, so-called "common sense." i used to think that i could predict people's actions based on common sense, but believe me, i've met some people (mostly former college roomates) who were operating with absolutely no common sense whatsoever, at least not MY definition of common sense.

as for plagiarism and recontextualization, maybe i didn't say what i wanted to say originally. what i meant is that plagiarism is a subset of recontextualization. what jj described this guy Koonts doing (framing Nike ads) seems like classic recontextualization to me. like jj said, doing something like that speaks to a lot of issues beyond simply presenting a Nike ad "as art." i'm guessing most people wouldn't call this plagiarism. on the other hand, suppose i were to rip off one of your tunes completely. like, just download your mp3 and put my name on it. certainly that's recontextualization too. but most people would probably agree that it was plagiarism, since the act of recontextualization, in this case, doesn't seem to serve any "artistic" purpose. since, presumably, you're not a well known musician, and i'm certainly not a well known musician, it doesn't really have multiple layers of interpretation to it (although, if hard pressed, i'm sure someone could come up with an "artistic" rationale for it). on the other hand, if i ripped off someone like Moby or something, that may start to be more meaningful in some people's eyes.

as for pseudo art often requiring no skill, i agree one hundred percent. but what i've learned about art, and ANYTHING really, is that "skill" isn't the be all end all of things. when i first went to art school, i was literally shocked by all the "pseudo art" that was going on. my art education up until then was like your definition 2, and i prided myself on being skilled in that department, so it was a surprise to see all this non-skilled stuff floating around. but after time i realized (and maybe it's just me) that it's not so much the "skill" required to create a work of art that sets it apart from other work, but the WILL (or IDEA), for lack of a better word, behind it. for example, i'm sure dumping a couple of sheep in a vat doesn't require too much "skill," (maybe some technical challenges, but whatever), so someone's reaction might be "this took no skill to do, it's bullshit." technically they may be right, but that's not the point. the point is that you've been presented by sheep in a vat, and that evokes some sort of reaction. if art were only allowed to be presented if it passed some "skill threshold," you may never have seen those sheep floating around in there. and then you would have missed out on an "art experience." it wasn't a skillful act that set this guy (the guy who did this thing with the sheep) apart from all other artists in the world, it was the fact that he had the idea (and the will) to present sheep to us in this way. and i think that's pretty meaningful. i also think this idea extends to anything in life. as another personal example, i left art school after a few years to study physics (i won't get into the details of why), and when i talked to people about that (especially my former art school colleages) i always get the response: "Wow, you must be so smart! you must have mad skillz! I could never do that! Blah blah!" which is utter bullshit. believe me, i'm not particularly intelligent or clever, and to be honest with you, the difference between a fourth year art student (or anything else for that matter) and a fourth year physics student isn't as huge as people like to believe. but what sets me apart is that i actually had the will to make that change (although i'm starting to regret it now  , even though, in my mind at least, it didn't require the use of any particular "skill" to do. maybe that example is totally irrelevent, but hopefully you see what i'm trying to get at with this whole real art vs. pseudo art thing.

and yes, this starts to reek of "conceptualism," and everyone starts to gag, but i truely believe that there is some substance to that school of thought. of course, like everything else in life, it can become a mockery of itself when taken to the extreme, but maybe that just means it's evolving into a new type of artform  

peace!



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Message 58/84                 Date: 20-Jul-00  @  11:30 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

Pongoid

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Okay, rip my shit, if you can do something good with it. I'm totally cool with that, but that makes your stuff fair game as well. It's only fair. that goes for anyone.

As for validity of artistic creations and expressions, the martial arts explanation is great, and the almighty drunken pinky-flick is great if it connects, but most folks don't master the drunken pinky-flick until they have the flying round kick, the iron dragon punch, and the spinning triple Buddha finger down in their sleep.

Unless I'm way off, (in which case I'm definately on the wrong planet) the purpose of art, and what really defines a piece of work as art, and not just a collection of materials in one place is the ability to invoke some sort of feeling, whatever that feeling may be. The feeling itself is always up to the individual, be it awe, revulsion, etc.. The fact that it inspires feeling at all makes it art. Are we in agreeance? The quality of a piece may be defined by who strong the feeling is that it invokes, if any. Do we agree on this point? So the question is: Is a piece of work judged by how strong the feeling that it invokes in one individual is, or by how many people it affects at all?

Anybody can walk into a room and shit on the floor make most of the other people in the room will feel something, typically an urge to leave, and puzzlement at the shitter's motivations, but is that art? Not in my book. It may be a protest against whatever is going on in the room, or maybe it's some sort of perverse turn-on for some, but art it ain't. Maybe if he's writing chinese characters, and creating brilliant poems, maybe I could see it a little differently, but even then that's some grey territory.

Come on people. What the fuck is up with this super liberal politically correct bullshit? A framed nike poster with a business card on it? Fuck that. The Cistene Chapel frescoes are more like it. Call me closed minded, archaic in my thinking, whatever. I don't care. I'm not going to sit here all day and argue these silly somantics. Recontextualization? It's weak. If you've stooped to just recontextuallizing something to create your attempt, it seems to me like you're lacking in individual ideas from within. That to me is weak, any way you slice it. Where do you draw the line? If you've got to ask, then maybe you need to work on more of your OWN source material before you go grabbing stuff from others. So if that makes me an asshole, or closedminded, then I'm guilty as charged, but you know what? I've actually gone and seen a lot of these pieces you're talking about as arguments. I gave it a chance, and the shit just doesn't work as art for me as art. I tried. I didn't go to school for it. I just went and saw it. The way I figure it, if you have to go to school to get it out of you, maybe it wasn't in you in the first place, and you should explore yourself further, rather than just following some trend.

You think I haven't made my share of dance floor rockers? My latest release sold out in a under two weeks from the day it hit the shelves. If you go to any mainstream clubs, chances are you'll hear it, if you haven't already. I'm not gonna go touting names, but just be aware that I'm not so full of shit, and unaware as some of you may paint me out to be. I've formed my opinions from my own experience, not from books of others stuff. You can argue about conceptualization all you want, but at the end of the day the folks that have put in their time, and honed their skills are going take one look at it and go 'yeah, cute. Ho-hum.' because it's just an excuse for not coming up with better. Any master of the drunken pinky-flick will be able to tell you that it only works in very specific circumstances, and you'll never land it on any but the most ignorant, unsuspecting or weak of opponents or those actually wanting to get hit. That may be the majority of the population, in this case, but so what? Can't you come up with better?

Admittedly, Koons did a fair amount of research into theory and technique, and sought out some serious artisans to do his work for him, but does that make him a great artist? I think it's more like DJing in the visual realm. So are DJ's musicians? You tell me.


Ape



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Message 59/84                 Date: 20-Jul-00  @  07:27 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

jj

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Well duh, the entire world is a freakin concept. I find it funny/alarming when ignorant people go on about conceptual art being a con act. Dumb, what can I say? You've got yer luddite heads in the sand. Well, I hope at least you can dance pretty well, ya?

I've a five year old cousin, and I cracked open a critique of pure reason for him, he didn't get it so its bullshit, skilless rambling. Right?

Picasso "discovered" his style, he "forged" it. It was masterful vision!, the highest artistic mind in western art. Oh wait, he ripped off african religious sculpture. Classic recontextualizer. You all gotta wake up and drop that artist as hero myth. I mean we've gotten alot of milage out of it, and it might still work on john q public, but amongst fellow artists, come on!

I mean all you squabling over Djs being superstars, instead of producers, shit man, the problem is not Djs, but superstarism itself. Do you think it makes much difference if the producer is superstar, or the dj? There's still a superstar. And if you like superstarism, you're a fascist, and jesus won't like you, wait, jesus was a superstar, get it?



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Message 60/84                 Date: 20-Jul-00  @  10:32 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

pict

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Woah there JJ!It sounds like you're the fascist here as in "you don't subscribe to my point of view so hop into that oven fucker"kind of idea.The luddites responded out of what they saw as necessity in their times their actions were useful in bringing people to regard the idea of human labour as something worthy of respect.The world is not a concept as Descartes proved you can doubt everything except the fact that you are doubting therefore you must exist.The whole point here is whether or not you accept the definitions of Art as espoused by others obviously we do not agree on the definition of the word but that is no reason to cast aspersions upon my or anybody elses intellectual capacity,if you feel that to be necessary you obviously have some learning to do,not least in the art of debate.It seems to me that those who disparage the age old ideas of the purpose and worth of art sell themselves short if they exchange those values for modern intellectual conceits.

p.s. much as I enjoy discourse your arrogance irks me.



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Message 61/84                 Date: 21-Jul-00  @  01:35 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

casparproject

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Alright, I guess its time for me to jump in here. As much as I feel art and music as an individual creative endeavour is worthwhile, I think theres one problem with art for the sake of public consumption that can be seen over the course of the 20'th century.

Fist of all, I want to emphasize that commercialization CREATED the act of plagiarism in art and music. Before the commercialization, it was common practice to work off of other peoples music, art etc, in order to learn and of course recontexturalize others ideas.

The problem with todays "plagiarism", however, is that it has taken the learning process out of the loop, it is now all about recontexturalizing that which is considered "profitable" you can see this very clearly in Warhol's art, (but because he was doing it intellectually, I see the intent behind his work as the thing that defines it as art).

You see, most DJ's are not playing records in order to learn from the great masters of techno. They aren't even doing it while intellectualising about the fact that they are the true representatives of this culture, yet they are not producers, they are consumers. They are doing it to profit from their use of other peoples work.

The same as boy bands who recycle each others same popular chord progressions over and over again so they can quadruple the record companies returns, most DJ's are choosing the music that they feel will get them a gig at that club downtown.

IMHO "art", at this point in time is no longer a creative venture. Art has really been an intellectual and political thing that started with the Dadaists in the visual domain and the Serialists in the musical domain at the turn of the century. Since that point, art and music moved further and further from the audience, and deeper into the recesses of the mind. The most recent being the minimalist movement. To be honest, I sometimes wonder whether western music and art has died with the minimalists, and thus techno is the last dying breath of the western minimalist musical movement. The next logical step, therefore, is to dive back into visual and sonic chaos, and pull out some new languages. DJ's are not artists, they are far from it, they are just consumers like any old lady buying a sinatra record and puttin it on her old victrola.

Peaceout,

Peter



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Message 62/84                 Date: 21-Jul-00  @  03:49 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

jj

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Well, we can hardly say that we entered into a "debate" here. Doubt thats possible. And arrogance, more like distaste for an attitude of ignorance, so ubiquitous and toxic, from which I don't see you deveating much, pict. Our differences are too fundamental to debate coffee. But I must say that the above mentioned ubiquitous and toxic attitude of ignornace (utai) is a contemporary invention. You ask for a return to "age old values", but that concept is a marketing scheme, and you should know better.


Caspar, I don't think you can make the distinction between consumer and producer so easily. Everything in the universe has a mouth and an asshole, eternally linked by the most fundamental design elements of CREATION (CREATIon... CREAtion... Creation... creation <-fading reverbed out echo). Just so happens that Dj's are assholes... who cares, life without an asshole is a bitch, just go ask pict. See, that was uncalled for, and I apologize Pict, I just couldn't keep a straight face any longer.



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Message 63/84                 Date: 21-Jul-00  @  08:40 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

nobody

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Warhol coined the term Superstar.

noise is music.

hey, i'm still reading :]



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Message 64/84                 Date: 21-Jul-00  @  08:52 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

pict

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JJ it sounds to me like you need a few more "assholes" in your body to help expel some of that shit you're full of if you want to get into shit slinging take it to the slaggit room I'll be glad to bandy expletives with you there.



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Message 65/84                 Date: 23-Jul-00  @  06:52 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

k

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all i can say is - no politic's please.. but just from a logistical point of view... if U use a vocalist they'll do what you want.. and you get all those juyicy samples.. i've got samples of vocalists i paid for that have lasted me years and ive been able to use them again and again, and they are MINE... so you can create vocals unique to yourself... just call the MU, get a list of vocalists in the style you want in you're locality, and hire one... pay them an hour to come down and just sing endless phrases which you dat or tape etc.. pay them their hour wages, and off they go... most of them can send tapes of their work so you can pick the one you want at your leisure..

just get everything ready for the session and be proffessional, and for the hour rate you'll get hundreds of unique vocal parts copyright to yourself which you can use again and again... superb!!!



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Message 66/84                 Date: 24-Jul-00  @  03:00 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

jj

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Some really good advice, at last!


Pict, beautiful, you've very wisely gathered that I take in more than I put out, very sharp.



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Message 67/84                 Date: 24-Jul-00  @  11:49 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

casparproject

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My gecko's breath smells like crickets.



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Message 68/84                 Date: 24-Jul-00  @  01:03 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

k

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think about, and plan the session... have 4 or 5 or whatever tempo's, and under that a simple bassline to set the key... layout some keys ready to go... then get her/him to sing each tempo and key for the phrases you want, then you can also use timestretch/pitchstretch etc to further fine-tune your basic samples in the future



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Message 69/84                 Date: 24-Jul-00  @  01:10 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

swanofnever

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hey, i realize this may come a bit late, and perhaps you're looking for something else, but i just ran across this page and couldn't help remembering this post:

http://www.maz-sound.com/products/_vocal-construction-kit/english.html

(just download the "demo sounds")... don't know if this helps, haven't heard any of them, just thought i'd try to help...



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Message 70/84                 Date: 30-Jul-00  @  07:36 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

r-tek

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this whole thread is just ridiculous. Stop thinking about all this as "art", for most of us its about making people dance. Dancefloors - y`all remember? Why we all got into this in the 1st place? When in our naive state of mind we actually thought this was all about FUN. Thats it people, FUN. Enjoying youself, smiling for once, forgetting about how shit things can sometimes be by going out and a Friday night and dancing and having a laugh. If matey wants to lift some tired and overused vox in his pursuit of "art", then let him, thats no concern of anybody else. Just cut the pretentious, holier than thou crap and hell! Go make some music or summing outrageous like that, eh?



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Message 71/84                 Date: 31-Jul-00  @  04:10 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

jj

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Well, we all didn't start out to make dance, let me tell you, some of us have just smoked too much marajahookie.

But still, nothing wrong with lifting the cart off the ground and spinnin the wheels for awhile, really. I don't think anyone around here stopped making music, did they? as a result of this thread? I just come to dt when my ears start ringing louder than my monitors, or when I'm programing sounds on my fs1r.



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Message 72/84                 Date: 31-Jul-00  @  08:51 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

casparproject

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Or when you program that great multi patch and write that great track and then are too stoned to remember to save it before you turn it off and just have to take a break so you don't cry.

Peaceout,

Peter



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Message 73/84                 Date: 31-Jul-00  @  10:20 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

nobody

Posts: 81

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indeed. smoking can be very very bad when one forgets important little functions to do. to do little old functions such. ahh... inchoerency, my old pal.. and i ain'ts even been smoking all morning eeder.



so........ yep. music is noisy. does anyone else have fun making music? if i not having fun i stop. i think too much smoking can be just too much. no more ounces. no more sansimilla (yes you CAN spell it that way) for some time.. in a time. lessn' i find a way to git away. got to see that europe place, and canada again. although canada is still a big mystery to me (why do people like such cold winters?? i hate cold) now this IS pointless becoming. ahhh.. more coffee for me, then on to the 800EG!! (MOTM 800 envelope generator) and maybe some more kits today... to build the LFO?? today maybe... 80something resistor LFO.. assembly is good. everyone make things with solder & join in



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Message 74/84                 Date: 31-Jul-00  @  11:56 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

casparproject

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today a synth you making? life is good, therefore, the funk is strong with you. a funkmaster you will be soon. enjoy the shakings of the booty you will.



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Message 75/84                 Date: 31-Jul-00  @  01:38 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

swanofnever

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hey, we hate cold-ass winters too... we just hate them less than guns and privatization...



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Message 76/84                 Date: 31-Jul-00  @  01:56 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

pict

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Say what you mean swan;)I'd love to visit Canada I've a friend who married a Canadian he told me he cried when he saw the size of your forests.As for rambling discussions more power to them sometimes they are the catalyst for some new ideas and perspectives that can be put to use musically.



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Message 77/84                 Date: 31-Jul-00  @  03:23 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

nobody

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DOH!!! now i need a De-Soldering gun. tomorrow.. yeah, extra solder got between two close connections so they're bridged.. not acceptable.. must remove all that. thing is that takes 2 minutes but i've been sort of to really needing said desoldering gun. oh well. anyway.. yeah, synth making. well, assembly. paul schreiber(synthtech (MOTM)), now he's a synth MAKER. hmm.... take away my gun & i'll take away yer life for trying. sorry, but i like my gun. never been fired, i don't hold it but to clean on occasion.. my gun. lots of magazine capacity. 17 & 17... mwahahahaaaa destructive power.... quite useless actually. but i plan to always have it around the studio for um.. imaginary intruders or something.


and i'm gettin' drums!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (excited)



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Message 78/84                 Date: 31-Jul-00  @  04:48 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

jj

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44 mag here, just returned from back woods, drew twice, fired none thank god.



Pict, you bastard!



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Message 79/84                 Date: 31-Jul-00  @  05:17 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

casparproject

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no offense nobody, but this is exactly why i live in Canada.

Peaceout,

Peter



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Message 80/84                 Date: 31-Jul-00  @  08:38 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

nobody

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still don't see the problem with guns. the problem is with people who have to load, and carry them. or something. hey peter don't you have an august 18th birthday too? i think it were you



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Message 81/84                 Date: 31-Jul-00  @  10:24 PM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

DJ Consuelo

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Somebody sez, I tink, Canada no hab murder, it hab 'hunting accident.' Dat why I live in Mexico. Chiclets, chiclets.

I got a song where de bass line go F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F mostly and de lead go F-F-F-F-F-F-F mostly. What key dat in? I need to peetch sheeft sample from Abba's 'Fernando" to go with it. What key 'Fernando' in?

BTW: All de above one hunnerd percent bullsheet.



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Message 82/84                 Date: 01-Aug-00  @  02:31 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

casparproject

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YAY LEOS! Yep das me, we have to make sure we make a big deal out of it here, cause after all WERE LEOS AND WE RULE!!!!!

Peaceout,

PEter



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Message 83/84                 Date: 01-Aug-00  @  03:39 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

jj

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How many of you have been awoken in the middle of the night while someone is trying to break into your house? Think you're scared of me having a gun? I'm scared for you not having one.


I'm not trying to stir it here, cause its been stirred enough for whatever reason, but I live in a world where at certain times I need to protect myself. I sure wish I could come on over to your bunny foo foo world where people at worst come mash you with big battons of cotton candy and say nasty things to you, but thats not the world I live in. If anyone's got the adress to bunny foo foo land, please post it, cause I'd like to go there.

And leoshmeo, its about time for the iron dragon, isn't it?



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Message 84/84                 Date: 01-Aug-00  @  06:20 AM   -   RE: Vocal samples?

nobody

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ah. bunny foo-foo land is a bunny farm run by some nutty gay couple. hey, they make good rabbit! not that i've ever EATEN one of theirs, but you know.. not bad, vampirical rabbits. could be something bad. address? sorry.. even they've got guns, for when predatory amnimnals come & try to eat bunnies foo-foo. this is fun typing. my world is of sea captains & rum



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