Original Message 1/26                 Date: 09-Jun-00  @  05:38 PM   -   Electronic Music Theory

deltasleep

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I understand that most if not all electronica implicates SOME sort of established music theory. But is there a hidden theory to some styles? I can understand stuff like house music having a very noticable theory behind it. Or is it just cliches, thats the question.
I think that most electronic musicians have a definite sense of theory when they make music. They just don't ever write it down.
Or is this a Zen sort of thing. Perhaps "a theory of no theory"?

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Message 2/26                 Date: 10-Jun-00  @  08:55 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

sitar

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It suddenly dawns on me that the question, "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" now has an answer. All you need is one hand (one finger really) on your controler, pressing a key to trigger a handclap sound. Thank heavens we can put that whole question to rest.

There certainly must be elecronic music theory. It probably took time for people to put what we in the west call music theory to paper. In various styles of dance music, there are things that sound good and things that don't work. There are reasons for this (don't ask me what they are) and therefore I think there are certain ground rules that could be mapped out. Why should electronic music be different from everything else. This music is still very young and we are still grasping at straws as we attempt to write it. That's what I think.

Thanks for helping me to officially bury that one hand clapping thing  

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Message 3/26                 Date: 10-Jun-00  @  09:21 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

deltasleep

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so how do you think it would affect the community if someone did write the theories?
Because i'm feeling like it still wouldn't mean alot to anyone. It'd be hardest to distinguish between theory and cliche' with electronic music. But then again, we already have a board to talk about cliches thats doing just fine.
by the way, if your like that whole handclap thing i've got an MXR drum computer i'll sell you 

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Message 4/26                 Date: 10-Jun-00  @  03:06 PM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

casparproject

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The problem with this is the attitude of a lot of the producers/DJ's in the scene these days. Everybody has their own ideas as to what the technical theory behind each genre is. I personally think that writing an electronic music theory book would probably get a lot of ppl mad unless you did TONS of research and were happy with very generalized definitions. The problems of overlapping betweeb genres (Tech-House and Techno, Tech Step and Industrial, Rotterdam and Industrial and a few others) make definitions and theories pointless. I personally think that the last thing anybody should do is learn how to write electronic music from a book. It's a lot like Jazz, in the sense that you need to develop your own ideas and styles from a multitude of sources. If everyone followed the same fake book and played the same solos in the Jazz scene, it would stagnate and die pretty fast. The same can be said for electronica. Now that I say that though, I can see how say a "House" fake book, or a "Jungle" fake book might be a neat idea. Hmm. I think that somethin like that could make good money too.


Peaceout,

Peter

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Message 5/26                 Date: 10-Jun-00  @  08:25 PM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

deltasleep

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The more i listen to older jazz the more i feel like the jazz scene HAS stagnated. My father is a jazz guitar player, so believe me i've been ranted on since the day i was born about the decline in modern music. haha ohhhhh brother have i ever........
I think that there really is a theory that applies to ALL electronic styles, but the thing is its not much different than a theory would be to apply to all music. Too general like you said.
I think perhaps a book would be a good thing, it'd give us all something to deviate from 

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Message 6/26                 Date: 11-Jun-00  @  08:56 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

sitar

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I think any kind of theory serves as a basic foundation from which to spring off of. electronic music is very very sophisticated on many levels. One can learn "music theory", but still needs to learn about oscillators, filters, envelopes, etc. You need to learn about how samplers work. How digital audio works. How fx work. How mixing and then mastering works. Learning this stuff is building a foundation of theory. Keeping the excitement going and not falling back on only the tried and true things that you know will work is part of what keeps it all alive. For all of the above reasons the music we are writing might be the most challenging to date. You have to know everything. You have to be the composer, the performer, the conductor, the computer saavy techhead, and most often the sound engineer to at least some degree. And you gotta be cool  

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Message 7/26                 Date: 11-Jun-00  @  03:34 PM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

casparproject

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The best thing then would be to study some music theory texts, along with some electroacoustic music texts. I think that's all there really is to it.

Peaceout,

Peter

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Message 8/26                 Date: 11-Jun-00  @  05:04 PM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

tjader

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someone said that the jazz scene has stagnated,i dont agree i think,people have a bit more technology now,you might not have art blakey on drums-instead you program,sample ....people are still listening old skool-nu skool(sun rae ,lonnie listen ,fela-jazzanova ,as one)same chords,same scales....new ideas.

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Message 9/26                 Date: 11-Jun-00  @  07:15 PM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

casparproject

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I think "Jazz" as our parents see it has stagnated. For us, it's just adapted to different forms. ie. Acid Jazz, Trip Hop, Drum 'n Bass etc.

Peaceout,

Peter

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Message 10/26                 Date: 11-Jun-00  @  08:31 PM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

deltasleep

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You have to admit though, the level of playing in electronic music is nowhere near the level found on a good jazz album.

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Message 11/26                 Date: 12-Jun-00  @  12:04 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

casparproject

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you mean on acoustic instruments right? i've heard some pretty phat bass playing on a few D'n B albums. virtuosity is not really something that is revered in minimalism though, which is essentially what most electronic music is. i don't think that the history of western music is pointing us in the direction of increased tonal complexity. in fact, i'd be more inclined to say that it's leading us towards a total reversal of western tonality. in 200 years, I wouldn't be surprised if the reaction to a major 5th is the same as the current reaction to a minor 9th and vice-versa.

Peaceout,

Peter

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Message 12/26                 Date: 12-Jun-00  @  07:49 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

Pongoid

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hmm... Theories of electronic music? Yeah, I guess you have to know them to break them, and some things work, and some don't, but to put that to paper certainly would stagnate some. Half of the art is how you make discoveries in getting sounds to things that they didn't previously. See, essentially what we've done is make science of art, and now we're taking that science and making art of it again, by pushing it in enexpected directions. So, by writing this stuff down, you give definate points to leap from, which again turns into cliche. How many tracks start off with a 4-on-the-floor bore kick, or the off set hats? Some actually take you good places from there, others don't, but it's a vaery familar cliche that serves as a refence point. Many's the idea I've put together, usng that as a starting point, then removed the straight kick, and the upbeat open hats, and the idea just didn't make any sense to a listener at all. Now, try applying that to some more abstract stuff like (I hate to use them as an example but none comes to mind as quickly) Autechre, that stuff just doesn't apply at all except by inference. I guess for me, it is kind of a Zen thing, and I know when the good stuff is happening live, but don't ask me to describe what's going through my head, if I'm thinking of rules or anything else, cuz I'm not thinking about anything in particular, just being there. Maybe others could come and analyze it. The same applies for plying good Jazz. Players don't think 'I'll try this mode to these changes' usually, and if they do, it sounds calculated. Just making scince out of art, and taking it no further. The best advice I can give is to practice and practice some more, particularly to practice playing, not practice practicing. That is how you learn this stuff, not through some fucking book! Good luck.

Ape

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Message 13/26                 Date: 12-Jun-00  @  02:58 PM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

swanofnever

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this is something that i think we're all aware of... well, maybe just me. it's like sitar said -- it's all about knowing what your gear does. genres/cliches and all that are invariably the product of a few inspired minds and a truck-load of second-rate hacks... i really think it's all about mood. you wouldn't drop a crazy ripping 303 line down in the middle of a smooth house track, and you wouldn't have some diva crooning in an acid track... okay, not wouldn't, i don't want people jumping at my throat for being uninventive...

what i mean is that all music (at least popular/western music) has always had an overarching definition/theory -- look at all the bands that use guitar, bass, drum set: metal, punk, the beatles, hayden... the only real difference is production values. it'a all about sound/feel, and that's what i love about electronic music -- the available palette is virtually unlimited. but since electronic music doesn't have vocals (well, the good stuff...)/isn't politically motivated (usually), the production values are even more "in the spotlight" because that's essentially all the music is -- feel. there's no message... well, i've always thought that every good techno choon's message should be "this is going to blow your mind"...

anyway, i'm sorry for all of my terribly long-winded posts, but this is one of the things i like hearing/thinking about the most, because this is the first truly abstract form of music that's been popular in centuries -- it operates on a purely subconcious level, and therefore we can only have the rough, working definitions that we do have, because our insights are all intuitive... i don't mean to be talking out of my ass here, all i'm really trying to say is I LOVE THIS SHIT, pure ideas and induced feelings... of course there's some sort of actually purely "musical" theory at work (i.e dark tunes generally do NOT happen when the bassline's in a major key) etc.
okay i'll shut up now, but i really want to here as much as everyone has to say, cause i'm really, really interested in this, and i think it's a fairly important thing to be aware of.

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Message 14/26                 Date: 13-Jun-00  @  01:16 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

tjader

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about the playing in eletronic music not being up 2 scratch...true lots of it is utter twod.but some aint.i think you can learn loads by listening to jazz....take stuff like fela kuti,wicked keyboarding if you listen and learn to play like that...and you have the right beat you have serious....house music

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Message 15/26                 Date: 13-Jun-00  @  08:22 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

swanofnever

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well, i'm sorry to continue my rant, but as good as jazz is (there's an annual festival here, quite good... live jazz is so much better) i really can't beleive the whole "technical proficiency" thing... like rage against the machine and their "we didn't use any samples, etc" bullshit... would anyone think of criticizing jazz based on the fact that the production/sounds aren't new? no, because that's not what jazz is about -- likewise, i really think all those damn guitar-wanking fools should realize that all they're doing is limiting themselves if they think being a good musician consists of being able to solo as fast as yngwie malmstein. writing a good song will always outshine playing a good song, at least in my eyes...

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Message 16/26                 Date: 14-Jun-00  @  01:55 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

itjader

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i dont understand your rant....i think the pallette of sounds idea is great ,comination of colours.i dont understand,as good as jazz is ..crap,i live in london is..GReAt!we have a good attitude to tunes a dj could actually get away with playing jazz next to a house tune...wow just think of that.

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Message 17/26                 Date: 14-Jun-00  @  02:54 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

kales

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I think the only theory that needs application
here is the theory of studying different styles of
music. Just listen to whatever you want and absorb
the aspects of that music you enjoy. Fit it together to create your own style. My background includes nothing but pure technical work: midi, sequencing, circuit design etc. etc.

All music today is electronic in some form, but taking dance music for example, if you talk to a lot of artists their background comes from a huge range of listening to other music and absorbing the styles they liked.

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Message 18/26                 Date: 14-Jun-00  @  10:57 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

damballah

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The whole point of the "technical proficiency" thing is not as an end in itself -- music that focuses on that alone usually sucks no matter what the genre (it got really bad in the 70s with people like Yes and Return to Forever). The point is to break down the barriers between what you want to express and your ability to express it -- also no matter what the genre. As far as virtuosity being not revered in minimalism, take the blues -- very minimal in almost every regard -- it's not what is played, it's how it's played. I don't know that we should be getting so self-congratulatory about creating music as disposable as a lot of electronic music is, although that is the young man's game -- to believe he's reinventing the world in a way no previous generation has. The 12-tone guys did it, the ragtime guys did it, the be-bop guys did it, the rock 'n' roll guys did it, the punk guys did it, the hip hop guys did it. And everyone of 'em was right, in a way. Now its the synth guys turn. OK then.

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Message 19/26                 Date: 14-Jun-00  @  07:19 PM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

deltasleep

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blues is an exscuse for bad guitar playing bad guitar...ugh
what truly makes a good guitar player is CHORDWORK, when i was young, johnny smith and and my father were still good friends, he flew in from colorado springs, yikes, now that man is a good guitar player.....
but thats another story altogether....
you guys with the whole 'reinvent this or that idea" really shoudl try to work out of it, as long as you see it all as a trap it will be.
perhaps thats why so much electronic is percieved as a novelty, we're all too caught up in the "this is gonna knock your socks off" mentality

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Message 20/26                 Date: 14-Jun-00  @  08:25 PM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

damballah

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Admitted, there's an awful lot of bad geee-tar passed off as blues by white guys trying to keep the idiom alive after all the black guys have moved on to other things or got old and died. And I'm not a fan of the form, generally. In fact, most of it's shit. However, I mixed a Son Seals show several years ago and hearing a master at work is a revelation.

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Message 21/26                 Date: 15-Jun-00  @  12:40 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

pict

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Western music theory is based on dividing sound up into twelve steps and various divisions of those twelve steps have been more or less popular through the ages.Theory only helps to give you an avenue of exploration when inspiration has gone on holiday most of the tunes that I have ever come up with that I ever felt were worthwhile working on came as a result of rampant improvisation,where theory helps is when you come up against the brick wall of "Uh where do I go now" you know that there are several options available.In electronic music knowing how various waveforms,filters and lfos is only part of the theory of that field,you can come up with sounds that may be great but unless you know how the various parts of a synthesizer work you won't know why they're great or how to reproduce them without writing the settings down,the same goes for an acoustic instrument someone played some notes simultaneously and someone else recorded(by devising music manuscript) how they did it so that it could be reproduced more easily by another individual the difference in electronic music is that new instruments are being developed all the time.The best you can do to equip yourself theoretically is to learn about synthesis and traditional music theory as a previous poster stated but that knowledge is useless without the creative spark.Electronic music relies on an understanding of the nature of sound as well as the nature of music and synths/samplers are the least limited tools for the realisation of that understanding. blah blah blah ad infinitum time to go to bed;)

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Message 22/26                 Date: 16-Jun-00  @  02:05 PM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

tjader

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i think learning the theory is important it will give you colours to work with,things that have been learnt and past on,you can sit at the piano and find things easier,you can hear that record and work out the chord progression..riddim is essential 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 count the bass drum out ,then the snare ,see how the bass works with it ,the length of notes.....study the music you like(bit by bit soon youll understand)..expriement with intruments... and make something new.

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Message 23/26                 Date: 18-Jun-00  @  06:04 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

janil

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But blues has been very important in establishing feeling, and the power of individual emotion manifest in a raw musical form. And like someone was saying, you listen to different types of music, generally learn bits of theory and appreciated characteristics of different styles, but ultimately the music we make is very much only partly consicience of the science behind it.

etc. etc., gotta split

later

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Message 24/26                 Date: 18-Jun-00  @  09:20 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

janil

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I mean, good sounds, extending styles/creating the new, or even dissolving the very idea of 'style'.

janil

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Message 25/26                 Date: 19-Jun-00  @  05:35 PM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

Deltasleep

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my style? would you call it the art of music without music?
show me some of it.
har har

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Message 26/26                 Date: 20-Jun-00  @  07:37 AM   -   RE: Electronic Music Theory

deltasleep

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nothing worse than bruce lee humor i guess.......
I'm all for dissolving styles, though.

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