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Subject: what scale is this? - Pt_2


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Original Message 1/29                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  08:53 AM   -   what scale is this? - Pt_2

k

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t'other ones getting too big to laod.. just saw your last post Fannie (which didnt seem to there bfore)... the 'Keyboard' display output could have another octave yes, needs it, but it's the input form.. those tick boxes are forcing the form a certain width... i could try a redesign... i dunno if i've time right now... maybe i can force them smaller.. thing is there is a 'hidden' area around the 'tick-box' form-feild which forms an invisible border forcing each key wider than i'd like it - i'll give it a crack tho



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Message 2/29                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  01:32 PM   -   what scale is this? - Pt_2

k

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t'other ones getting too big to laod.. just saw your last post Fannie (which didnt seem to there bfore)... the 'Keyboard' display output could have another octave yes, needs it, but it's the input form.. those tick boxes are forcing the form a certain width... i could try a redesign... i dunno if i've time right now... maybe i can force them smaller.. thing is there is a 'hidden' area around the 'tick-box' form-feild which forms an invisible border forcing each key wider than i'd like it - i'll give it a crack tho

well... couldnt do it... tried every conceiveable html variant i know to make form input objects 'size', no luck... the only way would be to have a permenent horizontal scrolling page here... or make the whole site wider, in which case it'd fuck up on 800x600 small screens



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Message 3/29                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  01:33 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

johnny

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Hi k, I just read through part 1 of this thread and you said "Sorry... I got confused there cos I was always told by music theory people that one refers to A# as B-flat... (i never figured out why when i asked i was told it was 'just how it is').."

Well, whoever told you that didn't know shit - each note has 3 possible names and you don't have to use one all the time. For example 'A#' is also B flat and also C double flat (you can have double sharps and flats). The reason for this is as follows, as an example I'll use the F major scale.

So you know F major has one black key, but is it A# or Bb? It's Bb - F,G,A,Bb,C,D,E. This is because you don't use the B in the scale, but you do use A so you can't sharpen it in the key sig. Note the continuity in the scale - you never 'miss' a letter out. In diatonic scales you must always stick to this continuity and that's why there are both sharps and flats. Also you can't mix sharps and flats in the same key signature, its either all sharps, all flats or neither.

If we look at your G# major scale, you miss out the A and the E and repeat C and G. It sounds the same as a G# major scale but it isn't

You wrote - G#, Bflat, C, C#, D#, F, G, G#

The real scale - G#,A#,B#,C#,D#,E#,F#(G#).

See how its continuous, no letters repeated and no mixture of sharps and flats. BUT that's a lot of sharps in the key sig (7) and it's fiddly to work with so as a convention instead of calling it G# major we write it as Ab major (4 flats), sounds exactly the same but easier to write and understand;

Ab major: Ab,Bb,C,Db,Eb,F,G,(Ab).

In the same way, E# major (E#,Fx,Gx,A#,B#,Cx,Dx,E# x=double sharp) is exactly the same as F major, but we don't write it that way because it's more effort and harder to understand.

It's hard to explain things and not sound patronising ;-) if I come across that way it's not intentional, just trying to clarify things.



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Message 4/29                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  01:54 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

johnny

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...in addition the E# major scale is not used because you can't have double sharps in the key sig either... (oops) but you get my point I hope.

The exceptions are the keys of F# major and Gb major - both have 6 sharps/flats repectively so there is no reason to choose one over the other, depends on whether you like sharps more than flats I suppose.



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Message 5/29                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  03:55 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

Harmony

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ooops, didnt u mean Fx instead of single sharpened F when u corrected K's scale:

"You wrote - G#, Bflat, C, C#, D#, F, G, G#

The real scale - G#,A#,B#,C#,D#,E#,F#(G#)."

Always remember the leading note has 2 b sharpened, but u knew that already coz u got it right when u spelt it enharmonicaly differently....

Right, u've been a busy fella havent u K!?!?! Well, dont worry with the amount of keys on the picture, cant u scrap it alltogether & make a new 1 that looks more like a keyboard, i.e: enabling the black notes 2 light up orange-it'd realy help. The scrolling page ting would prolly b the best thing if there's no way of havin more then 1 keyboard picture in each post, that'd help 4 examples....

K, since u sayd the other thread was gettin 2 long, u'd better go bak & fix what u wrote in yer last entry so no1 gets confused....basicaly u wrote that the major scale is constructed like this:

"like major Keys/scales are pretty simple to work out... Just start on a Given note, and walk up the keyboard always using the same spacing:

tone- tone - tone - tone / tone - tone - tone - semitone"

U say u listen 2 Debussy but I'd leave the whole tone scales out 4 the mo if u dont want 2 confuse any1-besides if u immagin your scale started on C4 it'd end on Eflat5 wouldnt it? These scales (if u dont include the semitone u put in at the end) have a particular spacey quality (good 4 sci-fi music...) coz the intervals are symmetric and our ears are tuned 2 the diatonic scales so it sounds new.

This is how OUR major scale is constructed: (K, what's the tag 4 a break??? is it this?:

TONE-TONE-SEMITONE-TONE-TONE-TONE-SEMITONE

Immagine we're startin on C. Between C & D there r 2 semitones, now think of the distance between E & F...no black note is there? Same with B & C, just a semitone in between-innit.

Oh...& this bit:

"RELATIVE minor scales... knowing the RELATIVE MINOR KEY to a Given MAJOR KEY is cool... and simple....

The relative Minor to a Major... the MAJOR starts on the 3rd of the Minor... so you gotta count back the first 3 notes of a minor scale backwards: - semitone - tone - tone, (the begining of the Relative-minor scale backwards) to find the relative minor key of a given MAJOR key"

Errrrrrrrr, "so you gotta count back the first 3 notes of a minor scale backwards" well, it's your website...but howsabout this?

If your piece is in a Major key, ie: the pattern I've just described, then using it's Relative minor can instantly bring a "dark" feel 2 your choon. The notes of your new key are "relative" 2 those of the original key, yet u r now in a minor, more somber sounding mode. Think of C Major, sharpen the 5th and harmony's drawin u in2 A minor. Basicaly, K, tellin'em 2 work out the relative major "from" the minor is no use is it?? How r they gonna learn how 2 figure out key sigatures? the reason I braught up the whole realtive minor thing is coz if u could easily understand the scale from this perspective: Gminor is Bflat Major's relative minor. U gotta start somewhere, start with understanding Bflat Major, the seccond flat scale u'd ever learn...add a "leading" note 2 "draw" the harmony towords g minor....

I sort of was hoping 4 a more "interactive" process...I can "tel" u all of this but if u tryed it out 4 yourselfs, step by step at least we'd b sure u all understand what the building blocks r....there's no point in me gettin in2 Trance/garage/hardcore chord progressions if u havent even digested the 1st chunck-is there?

So, FEED BACK please. & no silly bizznizz, coz I'm REALY busy these days I've got 14 000 words and "some such useless meaningless crap.... " (as it was so encouragingly put) 2 do in the next few weeks. This post is all 4 a good causa but if people start takin the piss I wont waist my time.



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Message 6/29                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  04:19 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

Harmony

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BOLLOX! BOLLOX! BOLLOX! K, what's the flippin tag 4 a line break??? That needs some serious reformattin... So that's that 4 the beginners, where's Kid Dik gone anyway???? I HOPE U'RE PAYIN ATTENTION< YOUNG MAN ;) but what Arska was sayin is perfectly true...no1 seems 2 want 2 discuss the music, I remember some1 accusing me of bein on the wrong website when I was askin 4 people's views on music as a sensation....(obviously not in this thread) it would b good if we could share some ideas, or "a quagmire of intellectual twaddle..." if that's what u wanna call it... also (since we're on the subject, but I dont wanna start up another domestic) but I do realy think this statement was un called4: "and still contains not a shred of info of any use or relevence to any newbie reading.... if that is teaching on your level, fine... but so far since you arrived at DT youve not posted a single useful piece of info.. " since the fact is someone today has already echoed my words in another thread-how's that not helping any1-there r different levels of knowledge and understanding goin round DT, every1 reads the threads on different levels depending on how much they can take on board...I just thaught that was harsh, that's all. 1 LAST thing....(promise it;s the last) "surely you know, all REAL musicians are non critical of styles.. that rubbish is just for non-playaz & media twitz so they can sell magazines or whatever..." well, if that were true then there'd only b 1 or 2 "real musicians" in the whole wide world, and certainly none at DT...



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Message 7/29                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  04:19 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

Harmony

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BOLLOX! BOLLOX! BOLLOX! K, what's the flippin tag 4 a line break??? That needs some serious reformattin... So that's that 4 the beginners, where's Kid Dik gone anyway???? I HOPE U'RE PAYIN ATTENTION< YOUNG MAN ;) but what Arska was sayin is perfectly true...no1 seems 2 want 2 discuss the music, I remember some1 accusing me of bein on the wrong website when I was askin 4 people's views on music as a sensation....(obviously not in this thread) it would b good if we could share some ideas, or "a quagmire of intellectual twaddle..." if that's what u wanna call it... also (since we're on the subject, but I dont wanna start up another domestic) but I do realy think this statement was un called4: "and still contains not a shred of info of any use or relevence to any newbie reading.... if that is teaching on your level, fine... but so far since you arrived at DT youve not posted a single useful piece of info.. " since the fact is someone today has already echoed my words in another thread-how's that not helping any1-there r different levels of knowledge and understanding goin round DT, every1 reads the threads on different levels depending on how much they can take on board...I just thaught that was harsh, that's all. 1 LAST thing....(promise it;s the last) "surely you know, all REAL musicians are non critical of styles.. that rubbish is just for non-playaz & media twitz so they can sell magazines or whatever..." well, if that were true then there'd only b 1 or 2 "real musicians" in the whole wide world, and certainly none at DT...



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Message 8/29                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  04:21 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

damballah

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jesus f*ing christ put some breaks in there when you post



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Message 9/29                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  06:59 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

kaz

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How?



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Message 10/29                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  09:00 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

kid dik

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Kid dikarus is still here. Lots of info!!! I just threw my back way out, so I've been in bed the past two days crying, but my lady's set up the laptop on my belly, and I've got a casiotone by my side, to start looking at these progressions, and relative minors. I thank all of you for this information. Since I can't be running out or anything, I think I'm gonna have alot of time for studying this wak musical system. So, I'm thanking you for this info, but through this whole post, and through all the contention, havn't we seen that this system is F*&^*& up? I mean everybody is correcting everybody else (relative to theory) and nobody seems to be getting it all right. Which is aokay, I'm not dissing anybody, but I'm saying damn it is confusing, couldn't there be a better way? Perhaps a newfangled metric system!, without black keys!!!!!



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Message 11/29                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  11:01 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

damballah

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The tag you use for a break is one of these:



<



one of these:



br



and one of these:



>



all typed together. Or you could use the paragraph tag which uses a "p" instead of a "br"... You need to type the break tag twice for a line of white space, the paragraph gives it to you automatically. You can always "View Source" on any web page if you're curious about how the html that's there works.



The scale or key is usually an agreed on convention by the musicians performing a piece before the performance of the piece begins, at least in my experience. And usually those scales will be fairly conventional -- majors, minors and modes thereof. Granted some crusty old jazz guys might start playing a Bb Javanese, an A Pelog or an E Hindu (the three scales I posted in the last thread) if you're trying to sit in with them and they want to let you know you're not worthy.



Kid Dik, the best way to start out on this stuff is learn to play some songs. You learn by osmosis if you feel like you're actually playing music. Nobody should start out the journey worrying about the more complicated or esoteric theory behind modal improvisation or composing in modified scales. You pick stuff up as you go along. Maybe take some lessons. There's a reason piano teachers start kids off with "Chopsticks" and not Scriabin.



I don't think keyboard makers are going to get away from the current key layout any time soon. Millions of people have come to terms with those black keys and you can too.



I started in a basement punk bands in the early '80s playing bass & guitar knowing a moveable major scale and 2 forms of barre chords. And everything I've picked up in the meantime has come through nice people showing me things (and correcting me), reading and experimenting. I've been involved with music semi-professionally since '84 and almost everyone I've had the pleasure to work with shares up their knowledge unconditionally. Only a few would choose to belittle people they felt weren't as far along the journey as themselves. We've got a name for that sort of person, now don't we. Oh, and anyone who tells you they're figured everything out is lying. You stop learning about this stuff when you die.



BTW, in a Keyboard mag interview in the early '90s, one of the guys in Coldcut said something along the lines of "We've found that if you put three fingers on white keys, each one separated by a white key, they make this thing called a chord. But that's about as far as we want to go with that." Draw your own conclusion.



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Message 12/29                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  11:34 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

kid dik

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I don't know where the notion that I'm just beginning my journey comes from. I mean, I have just decided to fuck it and learn the theory, but I've been making music for about 10 years now, and have gotten very far without the theory. I just suppose I've opted for the easy route, after all these years of inventing everything as I go. I figure I'll put a little bit of the weight on the western music system, which will leave me more time to figure out midi...


Now that is a jorney I AM just beginning. Its also really why I'm learning the theory. I seems to my unmidified eyes that midi is really built around our western note system, and I do need to learn midi so...



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Message 13/29                 Date: 16-Apr-00  @  12:38 AM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

k

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DOH!!!... well why didnt you say that KD ?.... feel like ive been talking down to you now... if youve been at it for 10 bloody years... you should retire !! heh heh

ok.. I fixed the 'not creating paragraphs' bit.. it now works like the other forums,.. just leave line breaks with a space between 'em to create paragraphs...

also due to Fannies request.. another octave is added... just see if it works ok first...

'dont want another domestic'... (that was funny i concede)

right, i'm just testing the added octave now.. so ignore



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Message 14/29                 Date: 16-Apr-00  @  12:53 AM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

kid dikarus

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Really, I have no trouble with being talked down to when I'm learning. For many years I was an ass, and didn't think I could learn anything from anyone. But in the past few years, my ambitions have exploded, and I've realized I don't have time to figure everything out on my own. Also k, I doubt you would have given so much of your valuable time to such a hackneyed old geezer (I'm twenty six and can't even get up to piss cause my backs so farked). Believing as you do, in youth and vitality, and the revolution of the young.

Never the less, you have given your time, and many others have as well, and I thank you all. And just remember, anyone can stay young, so long as they think they can fly close to the sun.



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Message 15/29                 Date: 16-Apr-00  @  03:10 AM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

damballah

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Sorry, Kid Dikarus. You're calling yourself a bonehead and such and K's calling you a newbie threw me.

I still think more light and less heat would be helpful around here, which was kind of the point of my rambling post. Harmony, Annie, whatever you wanna be called, do you think you can post without somehow magically making yourself the topic?



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Message 16/29                 Date: 16-Apr-00  @  03:12 AM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

damballah

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And thanks for the breaks, K. Mush ezzier on the red eyeballzzzz.



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Message 17/29                 Date: 16-Apr-00  @  05:54 AM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

johnny

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yeah I did mean Fx not F#. tanks.



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Message 18/29                 Date: 16-Apr-00  @  02:31 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

kid dik

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its taken me years to become the bonehead I am today!



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Message 19/29                 Date: 17-Apr-00  @  09:01 AM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

Harmony

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Wow, K, u busy body!! Wiikiid keyboard (I've seen the black notes work in another thread) Much clesrer, thanx. But what's the "kahslkjhasl salkdhsa" ting all about???? Cute word...secret meaning???

Right, 1 question...it's all good 4 the harmony side but theory aslo includes rythm....nationalism aside, would it b more helpful 2 go the english or american way? We refer 2 notes as "brethe, minum, crotchet, quaiver...." americans call'em "full, half, quater, 8th, 16th...". What's the proportion of Europeans/Americans vistin DT? Issues like that realy piss me off I'm not gonna opt 4 the english sytem just bacause i was braught up here-music itself is an international language so there shouldnt b any confution inflicted by national boundries....

Well, concert A is 440Hz, at least we all agree on that....but what d'u think bout the rythms?



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Message 20/29                 Date: 17-Apr-00  @  08:08 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

kid dik

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I'v never heard about that critchetty crotchetty quaivering system, but its words seem to make a little bit more sense to me, in terms of rythm, than quarter, eighth ect.



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Message 21/29                 Date: 18-Apr-00  @  12:44 AM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

k

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mebbe yank style'd be better cos it lines up with what sequencers are calling 'em .... doncha think??? perhaps?



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Message 22/29                 Date: 18-Apr-00  @  01:06 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

johnny

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How about this symbolic thing-

o = semibreve (whole note)

o| = minim (half note)

x| = crotchet (quarter)

x|\ = quaver (eighth)

x|\\ = semiquaver (sixteenth) etc.

Hmm?



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Message 23/29                 Date: 18-Apr-00  @  01:52 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

kid dik

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yank all the way, just in terms of seq, and compatiblity. I's just saying that it seemed to make sense to me, in quivering quavers.



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Message 24/29                 Date: 18-Apr-00  @  02:50 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

johnny

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I prefer 'hemidemisemiquaver' to '64th note' mainly because it sounds a bit silly, and you can have semihemidemisemiquaver too if you want. Even sillier.



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Message 25/29                 Date: 22-Apr-00  @  09:31 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

raph

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Melbourne, Australia: got both systems running, depending on where the educator of the educator was educated.

Personally, I learnt to read rhythms as a youngster, we'd call 'em tas, tee-tees', tee-tikas, etc.

Refer to them with the same language as you might count them out, if you not operating on the 1-e-and-a...blah blah..

You may not really have to worry about this, but it really is helpful if you're playing something with a complex rhythm. Like, as if you classical slaggers might actually downgrade yourself to play on your own instrument some music from far greater composer than yourself.....whatever eh?

raph



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Message 26/29                 Date: 22-Apr-00  @  10:02 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

k

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uh-oh.... just dropped in for a 'Classical' slag eh... good work - safe! ... *sigh*



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Message 27/29                 Date: 24-Apr-00  @  05:34 AM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

raph

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whatever whatever..

jokes within jokes man....jokes within jokes



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Message 28/29                 Date: 25-Apr-00  @  04:48 PM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

Harmony

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Kid dik, I'm realy sorry, I hope u'll still b ill when I've finished with my deadlines....well, of coure I hope u get better ASAP but u know what I mean.....

I'll be more help 2 u in a few weeks....(if u still wanna do the theory ting)

DT, U'LL B GLAD 2 HEAR I WONT B HERE WITH MY RANDOM JIBBERIN 4 A BIT....



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Message 29/29                 Date: 26-Apr-00  @  01:00 AM   -   RE: what scale is this? - Pt_2

damballah

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A)darn and B) good luck



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