Original Message 1/46                 Date: 05-Apr-00  @  11:46 PM   -   what scale is this?

kid dik

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I know nothing of scales or notes even. As much as I read, it passes over me every time. Help a bone head out, won't cha?

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Message 2/46                 Date: 06-Apr-00  @  12:57 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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key sig' ??

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Message 3/46                 Date: 07-Apr-00  @  01:14 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

kid dik

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will you kick me off this site, if I don't know what that means, k?

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Message 4/46                 Date: 07-Apr-00  @  04:29 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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doh!... see mate.. when you play a scale, it is only a SCALE and not just a sequence of notes, (one after the other), in relation to WHAT you are playing it OVER.. and all bits of music have a KEY SIGNATURE..

ok.. so if you are in a key of C.. playing a major scale produces no sharp notes or flat notes.. all the notes in a C major scale are straight notes.. C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C

BUT... if you change the key to C#.. then playing the same major scale with the correct relative distances to create a major scale WILL play :

C#, D#, F, F#, G#, Bflat, C, C#

on the music sheet on the stave next to the time-signature (4/4. 2/4, 3/8 etc etc) you'll see some sharp or flat symbols arranged... it may be only one sharp icon or it may be several...

this cluster of sharp or flat icons sitting on their own note/pitch-lines on the stave says: EVERYTIME YOU PLAY THIS NOTE.. SHARPEN IT, OR FLATTEN IT... this saves the writer & reader having to write a sharp symbol or flat symbol everyime one occurs in the music as part of the natural key the piece is written in...

so the musician reading it sees the key-sig.. and say.. "aha!!.,. this piece is in G... so i'll play G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G to play a major scale"... so rather than having the F# sharp symbol strewn all over the music everytime there is an 'F' note, the key sig places a sharp icon on the stave on 'F' key...

G-maj has 1-sharp... D-maj has 2-sharps... E-maj has 4-sharps.. etc - To identify a key-sig, the last sharp on the stave is the one before the Key.. so the last sharp of the key-sig' of D-maj scale is C#

after that, on the sheet music where a note IS flattened or sharpened relative to the KEY, then you DO add a sharp or flat symbol... so as you can see, NOT having a sharp or flat symbol on the music where they naturally occur in that key makes it simpler to see the notes that HAVE been sharpened or flattened within the piece when a sharp or flat symbol appears, amd makes the music less messy & cluttered with sharp & flat icons...

ok.. take another scale...G#-Major

the scale is:

G#, Bflat, C, C#, D#, F, G, G#

as you can see, the Key contains alot of sharps & one flat.. now here it gets wierd.. you dont call A# - A#.. dont ask me the fuck why, you call A#, 'B-FLAT'

so where there is a FLAT note in the KEY-SIGNATURE, all the other notes are converted to FLAT'S instead of sharps as far as I know (fuck i wish I could find that RCM theory book... so the key-signature icons for G#-major is written on the stave as:

Aflat (G#), Bflat(C#), C, D-flat(C#), E-flat(D#), F, G, A-flat(G#)

those are the notes that are played sharp/flat... yeah.. exactly, it is looney toons huh!!..

anyways.... so your arrangements of notes there if started on the first note you show.. is: fucking wierd !! :-)


ha ha ha - i dunno what the fuck it is.. but it doesnt resolve to an octave.... it starts in G# - so assuming that is the Root,

then it goes up a semitone.. it has a minor 3rd.. so it is minor.. but i'm not sufficiently a music theorist to tell you what it is called if the 2nd is flattened ... um... flat_11??... anyone ?? -

if you work back & start on E instead, it seems to have a structure of
E-minor with a flat-5, then it carries on a minor scale of E but flattens the octave to E-flat/D#...
..facking ell !!!... anyone know it - basically mate if you keep the notes the same, but add an extra note and start on E, then sharpen the last note on your scale you'll have a minor

I think therefore it is: E_minor-harmonic with a flat5.. :-)
do i win a fiver?.. & does it actually matter??...

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Message 5/46                 Date: 07-Apr-00  @  09:26 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

raph

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what are you talking about k?

It's: F#, G, A, A#, C, D, D#, isn't it?

u meant F# not G# eh?

So, yeah, it has flatten second (which may mean flat 9th), flattened 3rd, flat 5th, and flat 6

if you take the 2 semitone intervals (A,A#) and (D,D#), and construct a scale around these, assuming these intervals lie as the 3&4, and 6&7 repsectively, you have F7.

given the flat second, that sounds bad, I don't know if it is a ninth or something. ALso make it minor,
so conventional Fm7?!

I don't know...but you don't call a sequence of notes, like what you've put there a 'scale', you call it a sequence I think

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Message 6/46                 Date: 08-Apr-00  @  01:54 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

kid dik

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well, who came up with this fucking system? Its a bit like japanesse isn't it. A written language only for the aristocracy? Fuck all if I can figure out what any of you are saying!!! Though you're probably right! Actually, I'm rereading your posts, thank you for the thought, and its starting to make a little sense. Let me ask you this: With these notes I can "riff" for hours on the piano. Sometimes I open my eyes to see what my fingers are doing, and sometimes not. But what is a fella supposed to do if he finds a "sequence" of notes like this and wants to work backwards so he can understand a song from the ground up, in "musical" terms?

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Message 7/46                 Date: 08-Apr-00  @  07:04 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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raph mate - read what i wrote.. IF you back up and start the sequence on E, (cos he's NOT got a full octave scale there), it makes the EXACT scale of E minor harmonic with a flat 5...

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Message 8/46                 Date: 08-Apr-00  @  08:34 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

Harmony

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Oh dear...is this realy the extent of musical expertise going round the industry...

Boys, I sencerely reccomend u take a little time 2 consider the rudiments of music theory. True, they are not the be all and end all of musical activities, far from it, but how can u truly understand and communicate your musical ideas without a common means of expression? Cal it Japanese if u like. Japanese is indeed 1 means of communication, the Western tonal marking system is another. This language has been developing since the ninth century, it is a very accurate means of setting a musical idea into something more permanent. I am not suggesting that learning your theory is the way 2 understand music 4 using the tools of the Western notating system is certainly not the way 2 analyse contemporary music; it nevertheless is a part which should not be forgotten. In 1000 years time, the CD player may well be something 4 the archeologist, our lifetime's efforts would therefore be lost.

Consacrating a little time and effort 2 learning the basics of the Western tonal system would do you all some good. Doesnt it worry u not being versatile?

This is very disapointing...

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Message 9/46                 Date: 09-Apr-00  @  03:20 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

kid dik

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absofuckinglutely................BUT!

Where did you recieve your musical training? I doubt it was solely from a book or a website called Dancetech. More than likely you received your musical education at an institution or from personal tutoring (with the aid, of course, of some books). Well, I'm an american, of a newer generation, and you must be insane if you think our schools taught music. Many schools no longer have LIBRARIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! my Harmonic friend(can you see us all the way down here, from the heights of your ivory tower?). I will contract the aid of a musical tutor, as I am now my own man and I can dispense with my resources as I see fit. But until I generate enough resources to contract such a musical aid, I come hear (<- thats for sitar) to Dancetech, to beg wisdom from those more learn'd in the musical ways. Most of whom, will drop sufficient enough crumbs for me, and the likes of me, to carry on our struggle towards musical understanding, if, of course, we can wade past such dull and unhelpful DICKS such as yourself. Excuse the foulness of my tounge (fingers really) but your statement, Harmony, betrays a classist, imperialistic tone I don't take too kindly. Have you posted under the name SOX by any chance?

Anyhow,

sorry to doubt you k, and your musical wisdom ;) just seemed that there was a little bit of confusion in the posts following yours. I should have known better. Please sir, can I have another?



Oh and Harmony: america is the unmitigated mutation, the cancer. Have you not heard of jazz? Have you not seen our painters, so dumb and free, at last capable of unmediated vision, copied, analyzed, formated, compressed, understood, dead? Alas, there are more Californias here than you will know, creekbeds a-glitter with the smiling winking eyes of free and easy gold, indigenous peoples easily placated by the sound of an industrious roulette table, and yes, beaming amber sunsets to set our California girls aflame, oh I wish they all could beeee Californiaa giiirls.

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Message 10/46                 Date: 09-Apr-00  @  03:23 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

kid dik

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and I did hit return in many places throughout that message, but who knows wtf happened!

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Message 11/46                 Date: 09-Apr-00  @  10:55 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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well so I made a typo.. sorry.. i meant F# obviously which if you start on the 'E' below like I said, to be a minor scale it has to be an F fucking sharp surely you could see it was a typo??...

well the best guess i came up with was E minor harmonic if started on the E below the F#... maybe it's wrong.. maybe i forgot and got mixed up what a 'harmonic' minor was.....Jesus-H, I posted that at 4am.... it was as i said 'A GUESS'...

perhaps seeing as you are so knowledgable you might extend your incredible intellect to actually help the guy out 'harmony' - (LIKE it is even a relevent question that in any way is going to be helpful)

anyways.. show me any written system that can transcribe one of my basslines or guitar solo's so another person can play it the same and I'll come round and give you a fucking blow job !..

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Message 12/46                 Date: 09-Apr-00  @  11:06 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

damballah

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Yeah, for some reason this forum doesn't generate the break or paragraph tags the other ones do.



K?

Harmony: I don't know that I'd try to draw any conclusions about the state of anything from a couple of posts in an internet forum. Kid Dik stated outright he knew nothing and was a bonehead.

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Message 13/46                 Date: 10-Apr-00  @  03:36 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

dobbo

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I love your attitude K - Who's the daddy!!
Ha!Ha!Ha!

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Message 14/46                 Date: 10-Apr-00  @  07:45 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

Harmony

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Ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh, bwwwwwoy, can u lads get deffensive...




So if u want it 2 be explained on that level, I will but then fuck u all if u then get all agro 4 me teachin u like kiddies-ok?



Basicaly, if u look at the notes amd listen in your head 2 what they sound like (K, this would b a lot easyer if u sorted it so part of the black notes on the keyboard image could go orange 2).
Otherwise, go 2 yer keyboard & play'em. Now dont tel me these notes arent drawing u somewhere???? C'mon, please try it & tel me where the gravitational point is. I use this terminology coz there is literaly a gravitational pull that u must hear if u say u can riff 4 hours-where do these notes lead?





...u will kick yerself when u hear it, it is simple as fuck....




....oh, & K, the system u're after 4 notatin yer solos happens 2 be the Western Notating system we're all on about, it's not a secret neither. As 4 the blow job....






....who says I got a nob?

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Message 15/46                 Date: 10-Apr-00  @  10:27 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

damballah

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O I git it, u r rippin on Kilo.

Given that it's a modified scale, it's kinda how an individual hears it. K's could be right for K.

I hear it as a Bb augmented (i.e. sharp 5 but you knew that). Gm with a M7 would work (same ting). Again, that's the way I hear the "pull," but you know I'm full of shit.  

Anyhow, this stuff's supposed to be an art, not some macho contest.

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Message 16/46                 Date: 11-Apr-00  @  03:12 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

kid dik

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kid dik never hides the fact that he is slow, so:

Who mentioned a blow job?

Also, kid dik would like to point out, that every "musician" he's come into contact with that was a real notehead had NOTHING to contribute to music, or musical evolution.

No offense to you noteheads out there who arn't classist imperialistic dicks.

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Message 17/46                 Date: 11-Apr-00  @  04:02 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

kid dik

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oh and fannie, I've still got a crush on you!

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Message 18/46                 Date: 11-Apr-00  @  10:48 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

arska

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yeah, traditionally concidered it gravitationally pulls
to g minor harmonic system; if u take every other note, it generates chords cm(7) D7 & gm... i don't recall which was harmonic, which melodic minor. My ears gravitationally pull towards scales where there
is 1) perfect fifth
2) flatted sevenths

because dominant sevenths resolving to tonic sound
cheesy in electronic/dance music context.

there is not just one possible scale here, like damb
allah said. For instance, try open fifths with
left hand, usin D as a "root" then throwin some
c and Eb in the mix while playin melodies with rh...
sounds either flamenco or vaguely oriental

u harmony guy, did u pick up the expression "gravita-
tional pull" from Adorno....?

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Message 19/46                 Date: 11-Apr-00  @  10:51 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

arska

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yeah, traditionally concidered it gravitationally pulls
to g minor harmonic system; if u take every other note, it generates chords cm(7) D7 & gm... i don't recall which was harmonic, which melodic minor. My ears gravitationally pull towards scales where there
is 1) perfect fifth
2) flatted sevenths

because dominant sevenths resolving to tonic sound
cheesy in electronic/dance music context.

there is not just one possible scale here, like damb
allah said. For instance, try open fifths with
left hand, usin D as a "root" then throwin some
c and Eb in the mix while playin melodies with rh...
sounds either flamenco or vaguely oriental

u harmony guy, did u pick up the expression "gravita-
tional pull" from Adorno....?

sorry if this comes second time

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Message 20/46                 Date: 11-Apr-00  @  02:45 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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yeah yeah.. wank wank wank, blah blah blah, bullshit bullshit bullshit...... cut the bullcrap 'Harmony' ... whats your fucking answer TO HIS QUESTION... - he asked what scale it is.. remember??????

we all know it can 'gravitate' to various things, we all know about HEARING things and playing it by ear.. but that aint what he asked now is it !!!... So, put up or shut up... by posting what you did, you are implying to newbies reading this that the stuff i posted about keys is incorrect.. if it is wrong- correct it with your 'knowledge'.. if it isnt, shut the fuck up and piss off and arrange a woodwind quartet score or some such useless meaningless crap....

Kid dik, you are sooooooo right about these 'note-heads' - and the sad fact is... when they make music it is always tired lame repetition of what they have been 'conditioned' with at school... makes me fucking laff... line up 20 people at an audition and you can spot the college trained people a mile off... they are the boring ones playing stuff that sends you instantly to sleep... drummers perhaps being the sole exception to this rule as long as they have that rare quality so lacking in 'college' musicians... FEEL...

the rest??.. fit for circus bands or radio & theatre orchestra's or making 'elevator music' tapes ... thats about it... god i shudder when i hear the words - 'session musician' - that is why they hate the industry so much, like that film Amadeus, they cant understand how it is that what they see as un-educated idiots shine with a light they will NEVER EVER HAVE, no matter how much they read or study... (hint)

"DONT THINK... FEEEEEWL".. (Bruce Lee) - :-)

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Message 21/46                 Date: 12-Apr-00  @  03:19 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

kid dik

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Ta Dow

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Message 22/46                 Date: 13-Apr-00  @  02:52 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

kid dik

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fannie, let me apolgize, really, it was good and fun, but I think we both agree actually, though we are not saying it so much. So if yer ever in california(the allegorical or otherwise), stop by my place so I can hear you use your language live. I love it.

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Message 23/46                 Date: 13-Apr-00  @  02:56 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

Harmony

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...very intersting....K, u got PMT or summink???? Coz bwwwoy, can u get yer knickers in a twist! Kid Dik, what the flying fahck r u on about? Arska, u know your stuff & since u stated the obvious answer I dont quite understand how the boys didnt pick up on it..OBVIOUSLY THE ANSWER 2 THE QUESTION HAS BECOME SUBOURDINATE 2 THE DISCUSSION :P but as for Adorno & his "culture industry", interesting perspective but as I have mentioned before the tools used 2 analyse Western Art music arent appropriate in application 2 contemporary music (ie: Adorno seems 2 b suffering from "old fart" syndrome). So what I'm bangin on about is the need 2 b a little bit more versatile and less ignorant. I can tell from Kid Dik's description of "riff"ting and since he's from that wonderfully cultured place California that his ears must be tuned 2 a primitive Western tonal system. It's realy not that complicated so I'm sorry if this goes in 1 ear and out the other...
K, dont b so bloody judgmental. U know nothing of me or my education so there is no need 2 categorise me. I think the bottom line is u cant handle some1 knowing a little more then u, if u can, then prove me wrong by not gettin so touchy when some1 comes along with a deeper perspective. As a teacher, find it more satisfying 2 convert a trained musician 2 music technology-u know the proffessor at my univercity honestly believes that the sub genres within dance music are merely sociological tags. His mind simply isnt open enuf 2 hear the difference between a formula which consists of a bangin 4/4 kick+808 clap on off beat+303 screatching away on top... (ie:acid tekno) 2 another style...think syncopated garage breakbeats....so, for cryin out loud, K, if u believe there is only 1 type of modern musitian then u're just as ignorant as that professor. As 4 your scales, if u like I'll tel u exactly where u went wrong (the A# Bb thing), I'd have 2 get in2 the whole thing about relative majors...if u're willing 2 listen then u'll know it from then on and be able 2 put that knowledge in2 use but somehow I can sence a LARGE amount of abuse is about 2 b swung in my general direction so I dont want 2 waist my time-as I sayd, I do enjoy teachin so I'd do u a comphehensive guide 2 the principles of music which'd b useful 2 the modern musitian 4 others 2 learn from, up 2 u....

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Message 24/46                 Date: 14-Apr-00  @  12:28 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

damballah

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OK smart lady what's this?

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Message 25/46                 Date: 14-Apr-00  @  12:28 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

damballah

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Or this?

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Message 26/46                 Date: 14-Apr-00  @  12:30 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

damballah

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or this?

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Message 27/46                 Date: 14-Apr-00  @  02:54 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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no.. what i resent is your sneering attitude - the question has only become subbordinate to the discussion cos you've dragged it into a quagmire of intellectual twaddle...

like, you cant just come on and say.. "check it out, I'll explain it to you kid dik", and then post a simple answer to help him ...no... you have to come on and sneer and then back out and STILL not add a single piece of useful info ... so your not adding a single thing to assist the situation, merely confusing it to my mind...

kid dik asked a simple question relevent or not... i cant see how confusing him is going to help... i'm no expert, but i cant quite see how relative majors means anything to what you refer to in my post.. ive always been taught that in music (and how i meant it above), that a# is always refered to as B-flat, and thats all ive ever been told or read.. ive never seen B-flat written or expressed as A#... and that simply is all i meant and was refering to in isolation.... again.. if it's wrong posta fucking answer not a slag....

i think really it's about the difference between our posts.. my original post is cheerful, positive and at least TRYING to be helpful, whilst admitting lack of knowledge.... yours is just critical, rude, sneering , and still contains not a shred of info of any use or relevence to any newbie reading.... if that is teaching on your level, fine... but so far since you arrived at DT youve not posted a single useful piece of info.. yet you've accused, sneered and criticised...

i mean check the facts... every thread youve figured in as a main character since you arrived has gone the same way eventually.... and not just with me...

what tends to happen is at DT... one person ad's something.. the next says.. "um... actually... it's not like that.. check this out"... bang!.. they post INFORMATION.... i cant quite see whats up with you ??... plus if i said "wassup with you PMT or summink?".. no doubt i'd be sexist right !!??...

You say i dont know this and that bout you, but frankly, your posts say alot about you and your education... cos you turned up at DT and immeadiatly spilled your guts everywhere....

my main problem is that in your posts your implying that the stuff i posted about key's is total crap...

so please.. pretty fucking please with sugar on top... clean the fucking car.... sorry, i mean, post some info to answer his question and verify wether what i posted about keys IS crap or not and correct it, instead of using this as an excuse to attack me - yet again...

bloody students :-)

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Message 28/46                 Date: 14-Apr-00  @  03:57 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

kid dik

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Hey k, I posted something and I got an error message, which I get sometimes on this forum, but my message disapeared this time, any chance it made it to your server? you know, retreivable? It was just about 20 minutes ago, I know, cause you posted right after me.

And also, k, yeah fannie has wasted alot of your space, and its yours to do with as you see fit, but, I kinda like fannie. And I'm sure she'll post about relative majors too.

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Message 29/46                 Date: 14-Apr-00  @  02:09 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

fresh from my inbox

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OH my god,that was so funny. I've just read all that dancetech shit - that conversation with K and kik dik. Did you say that it was K's web site? I can't believe what a tosser he is. You can tell that before you came along he thought he was the King of theory -his original message to Kid dik was so patronising thinkinkg he was so into his fucking theiry. He just can't handle someone bloddy well outwitting him. What's so ironic is that he was accusing you of dragging it out
and not making any valuable contributions but he'd just fall for it every time and wouldn't let his guard down and get all defensive and himseld contributiong nothing valuable!
I also cannot fucking believe his defence of calling a# B flat. He said that its always called B flat - THAT'S BOLLOX!!! What about E flat and D# then? not to mention all the bloody others! The bit about him criticising classically trained musicians REALLY pissed me off. All your replies were spot on!
That american kid dik seemed alright if a little silly.
Anyway must be off.
Love Katy

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Message 30/46                 Date: 14-Apr-00  @  02:09 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

Harmony

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Just thaught I'd share that with u-smart girl's me mate Katy. Covers most of what I was thinkin. Could u seriously not sense the words "wind" and "up" when readin my 1st message? C'mon boys, read it again & tel me u dont feel like a tit. R u tellin u dont look down yer noses at me when I say the words "happy" and "hardcore"? Where d'u think I get my stimulus from? Thing that makes me laugh is how u fall right in2 EVERY single little trap I set. I was in my mate's internet cafe whaitin 4 my mate 2 finish his shift (and 4 Katy 2 finish at her work) and I had a point 2 prove from last week-remember? I'm not thick-malicious maybe, well..DEFITELY but U lot go round with a real chip on yer shoulder-dont u think it's b better if every1 worked as a community "what tends to happen is at DT... one person ad's something.. the next says.. "um... actually... it's not like that.. check this out"... bang!.. they post INFORMATION.... " IE: PING PONGS YEAH??? :P Look, I'll tel u the relative major bizznizz later-I got a 12HOUR shift at work now-"bloody students"-ey? So, at 8:30AM, if it still makes any sense I'll help u out-as I sayd I hate aggro- no offence intended.

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Message 31/46                 Date: 14-Apr-00  @  03:44 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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Ha ha ha :-)... soooo predicatable man, i knew i was in for yet another slagging... but.. bringing your mates in for some backup now :-)... that is well tired.. :-) sorry.. but it's just too funny... Hi 'Katy'... thanks for your informative comments, i'll er... bare them in mind... and i'll try to fall into Annies 'Cunning traps' (Pooh & piglet & heffalumps eh?!!), as much as i can in future eh ?!?...


Anyways look.. Fannie, if you DO post something later of useful info that clarifies theory better for newbies that'll be cool.. but please.. use paragraph tags to split it up, cos posted in one BIG chunk of text it is really tuff to read... if you dunno how to do that just post it, and i'll re-format it

PS... i like happy & hardcore.. and ANYTHING frankly if it has integrity... I got music in my den from classical & eastern to 'banging' dance and hardcore grungey stuff where do you get this idea that people are sneering at those styles.... ?? .. paranoid ???!

Man, i'm a fucking MUSICIAN!!.. i've been playing prolly since before you were a stiffie in yer pop's trousers!!... and surely you know, all REAL musicians are non critical of styles.. that rubbish is just for non-playaz & media twitz so they can sell magazines or whatever...

Music of all sorts has an energy etc, or it does NOT.. (the NOT is the crap regardless of style)... So, I can get the same rush from hardcore dance, with screaming agressive 303's or whatever over a massive hard fast banging beat etc as I can get from hard as fuck, fast, aggressive hardcore guitar thrash bands, and at either type of gig, you'll find me banging with my head stuck in the bassbins..... to me, the energy is the same, just as the energy of a cool winding ambient piece can move me when i'm in THAT mood like say Debbussy's Syrix for Flute can...(spelling?), or Asik Veysel ... to me, it's the same shit.. it's just energy...

doncha know??...?.. ! :-)

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Message 32/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  06:09 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

Harmony

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(bloomin'hek, I'm tired, so if I fall asleep nudge me...) K, dont get so deffensive-arent your mates curious bout your interests? I just COPY/PASTE'd the email coz she's 2 much of a nice person 2 come ere & yell abuse at u-that's my gob! Only avin a laugh...Whai a minute...I'm just experimentin coz u've just made me curious bout summink...aaahhhhhaaaaa

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Message 33/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  06:28 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

Harmony

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Wiikiid! that tag worked! At least, it looks like it did in my hazy state. Right, K, can I av 1 of these boxes but with more keyboard pics? Is there a tag or summink I can use? & I suggest u reformat it anyways coz HTML lecture were 10AM friday &....bwoy....that's not the best of times 2 b alert let alone awake! By the way, how deep d'u want me 2 go? Very basics/blagger's guide/or...the lot? If u want the lot I'll need qwite a few more keyboards indeed...OK, but 2 get u started, think of the notes that constitute B flat major and compare them 2 the notes in G minor.

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Message 34/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  06:47 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

arska

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i havven't got any formal music education... but, i really think it wouldn't be that bad idea to have somewhere written some basic stuff about scales & harmony, and so taht it would have some direct relevance to this electronic stuff we like...
because, for instance, i took the trouble to learn the fucking rudimements of western harmony from the teoretical point of view, and ewven tried to apply it for a while, but very soon i realisid that it just doesn't go that way... there is incredibly little written about contemporary, "our", music from in analytical, or from music maker view point...beside the "gear" perspective...
i use to read for instance Select magazine, and i liked the way the reviews were written, but why is music almost never analysed discussed as music, it's always, this song tells about unemployment or Thatcher, fuck! why should i care. Nothing wrong with writing songs about social issues, but there is then a problem, when people write about music as a "surrogate literature" or sociology or "cultural studies" guys write about music, because they don't know a fucking thing about music as music...
so Harmony u r lighning speed typist, do an article here in Dancetech, or is it a bad idea
if there is in scale note "a" then there is "b" or flatted b, like in g minor scale, but if we have g#minor scale ... what we have then...a# ...and flatted c! that is b...or what... shit, u harmony should xplain this if u can, about enharmonic notation and stuff...
let's be constructive and positive!

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Message 35/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  08:36 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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HEY!!... i just figured it out!!... you two are both members of 'GIRL THING' :-) - YO YO YO !!!!!....

By the way kid dik.. I checked what i wrote agin above... THERE IS A BOOB IN IT FOR SURE.. it is ALL correct and not wrong EXCEPT for the bit about:

'if a flat is in a key they the accidentals (the symbols on the stave next to the time sig that indicate a sharpened or flattened note)'

- that is wrong... in the key signature next to the Time Signature 2/4, /4/4 & the treble clef (that squiggly symbol) etc... A# is always written as A#..... on the A-line...

Sorry... I got confused there cos I was always told by music theory people that one refers to A# as B-flat... (i never figured out why when i asked i was told it was 'just how it is').. maybe THAT is wrong also... just what i was told ... still... it is all correct except this bit:

...so where there is a FLAT note in the KEY-SIGNATURE, all the other notes are converted to FLAT'S instead of sharps as far as I know (fuck i wish I could find that RCM theory book... so the key-signature icons for G#-major is written on the stave as:

Aflat (G#), Bflat(C#), C, D-flat(C#), E-flat(D#), F, G, A-flat(G#)

those are the notes that are played sharp/flat... yeah.. exactly, it is looney toons huh!!..


Althought people REFER to A# as B-flat... in the KEY SIGNATURE, IF there is a B-FLAT in the key, the Sharp will be on the A line of the stave to make B-flat (A#)... so it is WRITTEN as A#... but (if what i was told is correct) expressed in WORDS as B-Flat....

the rest is all ok as far as i can tell....




SO.....slagging aside, here's the rest of the basics U need to mess about and get cool chord sequences for your tracks in a house, garage or trance stylee....

Part-2
Further to the above, you've also got RELATIVE minor KEYS which is probably a good thing to look at on a basic level cos you can find minor keys and from them find the Triads to work with over the bassline/s keys....

like major Keys/scales are pretty simple to work out... Just start on a Given note, and walk up the keyboard always using the same spacing:

tone- tone - tone - tone / tone - tone - tone - semitone

this DOESNT mean on the keyboard-KEYS you always space the notes two keys apart, but a WHOLE TONE appart musically (2 semitones)... so say if you start on B, the next step will be up to C# ... Start on F, the next step up will be to G.. etc.. the thing with a basic major scale is simply that keeping that spacing as you go up the keyboard, the last step up to the octave HAS to be a semitone to resolve to the octave note ....

RELATIVE minor scales... knowing the RELATIVE MINOR KEY to a Given MAJOR KEY is cool... and simple....

The relative Minor to a Major... the MAJOR starts on the 3rd of the Minor... so you gotta count back the first 3 notes of a minor scale backwards: - semitone - tone - tone, (the begining of the Relative-minor scale backwards) to find the relative minor key of a given MAJOR key ...

or to find the REALTIVE MAJOR of a MINOR key, count UP to the Minor 3rd and THAT note is the starting Root note of that MINOR keys relative MAJOR...

So... if the major is C.... Starting on C, count 3 back...so....

1-C... then back a semitone to 2-B, then a tone to 3-A.... So A_Minor is the Relative Minor of C Major.

Keeping to C which is the easiest, notice that when you start in C, and play a major scale, you simply walk up the White notes using no black notes until you reach the upper C an octave up.... well it sounds MAJOR right!!?.... ok check it...

step back to get the Minor, C, then back a semi, back a tone... Now you are on the A key of the keyboard... Now, this is the Realtive Minor right!.. ok... go for a walk up the keyboard again playing ONLY white notes until you reach the upper A octave note... HAH!!!.... sounds MINOR NOW !!!....

see?... and the Key signature (the arrangements of sharp symbols on the stave next to the treble clef & time sig' (3/4, 4/4 etc) mentioned above is THE SAME for MAJORS & THEIR RELATIVE MINOR KEYS.. cos the relative MINOR KEY of a MAJOR KEY uses EXACTLY THE SME SHARPENNED OR FLATTENED ACCIDENTALS..

(ACCIDENTALS = notes that have to be played sharp or flat... cool huh !!...) - it's those crafty mathmatical relationships at work again...



Ok.. check it.... For the Relative Minor for A major...

Start on the A key of the keyboard & count back:

1-A - then a semitone back to 2-G# - then a tone back to 3-F#.... so, F#_Minor is the relative minor of A Major... and there it is simplifeid of course....



now, that is of little use without knowing how to form a MINOR scale once you know that the relative minor key you want for A Major IS F#_minor etc... but Minor scales get very messy, cos there are several types,... it's not nearly as straightforward as a simple basic major scale... so, i'll simply give you the spacing between notes for forming a simple NATURAL MINOR scale (Aolian i think it's called) ...

there is also Harmonic minors, Melodic minors Ascending & Descending etc.. BUT, once you get the spacing for a NATURAL MINOR scale, you'll find it easy to just move some of the notes in the scale to HEAR that actually, it doesnt sound incorrect to stray from those notes & STILL sound MINOR... (like does it matter anyways if it sound good to you!!)...

ok... to make a NATURAL MINOR SCALE it is basically the same as a Major except it has a flattened third..... the thing that charcterises it, is a FLATTENED or MINOR third ...

like when you start on C.... step up a whole tone to D... then rather than ANOTHER whole tone to E, (like in the major C scale), YOU STEP UP A MINOR 3RD to D#/E-flat...(so up just a semi-tone)... NOT A MAJOR-THIRD like in the major scale... so.. the spacing is this...
NATURAL MINOR:
tone- tone - semi-tone - tone / tone - tone - tone - semitone

MAJOR:
tone- tone - tone - tone / tone - tone - tone - semitone

kay?...





this is simplified.. but check it out... you know for example you can make a basic TRIAD for C-major.. to make a basic cheesy C-Major chord with the: root-C, 3rd-D & 5th-G...

C_(ROOT) - E_(third) - G_(5th)

ok... now keep the same root and 5th.. but step the 3rd down a semi-tone... MINOR CHORD RIGHT!!... ok... so basically without resort to comlexed stuff, to make simple 3 finger chords major or minor use that... root 3rd and 5th, but with a flattened 3rd or un-flattened 3rd ... to make major or minor simple chords

for making more interesting chords for riffs in house or garage etc... just make variations on those notes...

TRY keeping: the Root, the 3rd (Maj' or Min') and 5th... then try moving the 3th up and down a tone back and forth from the 3rd to the 4th like 'Modulating' that note between the 3rd & 4th... y'know, like the basic intro riff to 'Pinball Wizzard' by the Who from Tommy... you'll hear it straight away it's a simple 'modulation' used alot in pop & rock...

it's the equivilent of playing a basic first position D major guitar chord then putting-on & taking-off the pinky finger on the fret above the last note your holding of the chord as you strum.... ( a suspended 4th chord)

OK... to make that basic 3 note chord/modulation sound 'BIGGER' or fatter, dont play the 5th with the right chord hand, play it (the same 5th note) but an octave lower , with your left hand below the chord..... so it's the same chord, still rocking the 3rd-to-4th 'modulation', but with the 5th played an octave lower... simple chord riff for 'happy' stuff over a beat...

keeping basic attatched notes in the chords in their relative keys, and moving other notes around in progressions if the most simple way in pop & rock that they create lusher sounding chords... it's real simple mate... for example...

go to the piano/keyboard... play that basic TRIAD - 1ST (with your thumb), 3RD-(index finger), 5TH- (pinky-finger) for a simple C-Major chord...

now, with your left hand, play the C-root an octave lower with one finger... now... keep holding and playing the upper 5th with your right hand pinky-finger... BUT start to move the your other two fingers.... keeping them spaced EXACTLY the same two notes apart

move them down a whole tone, then down again another whole tone keeping the same spacing whilst at the same time keep playing that bottom C-octave with your left hand!...

yup.. heh heh - the intro chord sequence to the title song from 'Robin Hood- Prince of Theives' - Bryan Adams.. sounds LUSH & COMPLICATED yes!!, like a 'REAL musician' type shit...... BUT SOOO SIMPLE...... just resolve it to a G chord for the final chord of the sequence...

so just use the Keys to find stuff that relates, and use the scales to fin the notes then mess about holding down roots with your bassline then work on modulating Triads around whilst ANCHORING root, 3rd & 5th notes to play them of to create cool harmonies... this gets you cool-sounding BUT simple chord sequences no sweat without busting a gut...

that is the basis of house, garage & trance chord progression structures... then overlay sequenced monophonic patterns over that shit, again drawing on the relationships bewteen Keys/scales/notes that youre using....

Plus obvioulsy, you can create a bassline first in the sequencer, then while it plays work on the chord parts, or do the chords, then work on a modulating bassline, or even GO BACK to the bassline after youve made chords to it, and mess with it some more in light of the chords youve come up with...

trust me man... that ACHORING of the basic trid notes combined with miving spaced diads (pair of harmonically spaced notes) is the root of all the great big selling chart hits.. the more you mess, the more you'll hear them... stuff like Aerosmiths 'I dont wanna close my eyes'.. (not that aerosmith wrote it, that woman wrote it, she's some bigwig US 'un-seen' - song-writer).... it's how you turn mundane simple chord sequences into something that sounds lusher and WAY more complicated.... sure, it aint Keith Jarret !! :-)..but still... you gotta start somewhere right!.. better to get encouraging results... This is the shit people like Sash use all the time...

Laters ....

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Message 36/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  08:39 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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heres the sequence to that bryan adams shit - 1

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Message 37/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  08:40 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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2

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Message 38/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  08:43 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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3

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Message 39/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  08:49 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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4 - back up with a G root optional depending on where you are in the song, in the original i think they vary that, any who cares, you can see where it's going riiight! ( if G, it should be an octave lower but No room)

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Message 40/46                 Date: 16-Apr-00  @  12:50 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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doh!!!!... shit crap & bollox!!!.. as Fannie pointed out... the ACTUAL SPACING for a major scale is:

TONE - TONE - TONE - SEMITONE / TONE - TONE - TONE - SEMITONE

god i hate typing.. something seems to go missing between the keyboard and when you walk to the computer to type.. drat...

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Message 41/46                 Date: 17-Apr-00  @  04:03 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

arska

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... i read a book by Colin Wilson where he told how he was asked to give classes or a course in "creative writing", and how he was then somewhat hesitating because he felt that "writing instruction" is like throwing fertilizers on garden full of weed (not hemp, but useless plants)... so the moral was, if u need instruction to create, u maybe should't be doing it in the first place.

Theory is no substitute for talent, but i think you can get ideas - not rules -from what you read and discuss. And i just happen to like to read about music, perverse or not. "Talking about music is like talkin about fucking". The music press writes more about sex and drugs than music. I think it's dead boring.

Some comments, correct me if i'm writing bollocks.
Traditionally the minor and major scales have this "leading note", a note half step below the scale root, or tonic note. But somehow i feel that this leading note should be avoided like plague, unless u wish to write traditional songs, or cheese (too broad generalization probably). Consider following bass lines:

1) C3() G2 () C3 G2 A2 B2 etc
2) C3 C3 G2 Bb etc

both have been heard millions of times, but which one is groovier? if you prefer the first one, you probably dug Rednex.

so, instead of standard major scale, if you flat the seventh you get "mixolydian mode". I personally prefer it over the standard scale. It ssounds nice for instance with that device mentioned by k, anchoring the root, - pedal point bass (?) ... so you keep playing for instance c in the bass, and play gm or gm7 over it etc

couple years ago apparently there was a craze taking old hit songs and trying to make them hits once again by sticking pedal point bass and 4/4 drums on them, usually it was crap. Tradionally built songs can have pedal point passages, but something else is too needed.

i hope i wasn't talking too much bollocks, because these things i've had pretty much figure out on my own, because curiously, there seem to be no musicological resources illuminating things that have boggled me...

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Message 42/46                 Date: 17-Apr-00  @  04:54 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

kid dik

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thats what dt is for. what is pedal point again?

and btw, this thread has moved on to part 2, check it.

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Message 43/46                 Date: 17-Apr-00  @  06:33 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

Harmony

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AAAAAHHHHHHHHHH! K, pls change what u last wrote, u copied it wrong!! (u dont av 2 keep this message-maybe it'd b less confusing if u change the error & got rid of this 1...) Do CUT/COPY/PAST this time 2 b shure....

This is how the major scale is constructed (AGAIN!):

TONE-TONE-SEMITONE-TONE-TONE-TONE-SEMITONE

Ok, maybe this is where u're going wrong: immagine u're starting on C, the 1'st step u take is to D:TONE....so picture it this way, (can u format it so the note name is under the "step"?)

C>D (TONE) D>E (TONE) E>F (SEMITONE) F>G (TONE) G>A (TONE) A>B (TOME) B>C (SEMITONE)

I think u were immagining the 1st "tone" 2b C instead of it bein the 1st step....

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Message 44/46                 Date: 17-Apr-00  @  06:55 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

arska

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pedal point = bass keeps on playing the same note or line while the chords change

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Message 45/46                 Date: 17-Apr-00  @  09:00 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

Harmony

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"... so the moral was, if u need instruction to create, u maybe should't be doing it in the first place."
Heh, he obviously didnt like sharing his secrets. The reason I think a bit of theory wont go amiss is that if we want 2 share our views on dance music compostiton, the musical side, that is, we all need at least some basic knouledge of how music works. True, u can only realy get in2 it with a lot of background knowledge but if we all put our heads together I'm sure we could come up with some valid arguments.

"i hope i wasn't talking too much bollocks, because these things i've had pretty much figure out on my own, because curiously, there seem to be no musicological resources illuminating things that have boggled me..."

The study of music in a contemporary framework is very new concept and is only touched on by certain establishments. Have u read Nicholas Cook's veiws? Very, very interestin (comin from me, & u all know what I can b like bout doin my work ;)... ) Well, 4 £5 u can get: "Music, a Very Short Introduction" Oxford Univercity Press. It's "short" and covers the main issue of what music is, what it has inevitably become....

Now, take the books on the rave culture, dance music in general....historical chronologies.... "Thatcherism...." yes, all of'em mention flippin' Thatcherism....interesting from a sociological perspective but absolutely no use 2 our followers, people making music. The exception being the "Rough Guide to....(cant remember if it was Drumm&Base or summink)" had a look at it-naf as fuck! I looked up Omni Trio as an example and the fella was descrivin the piano part "like some blissfull mouthfull of notes being struck in the style of a funeral march" or somesuch toss-when I read the words "Vagnerian like Leit Motifs" I put the book back on the shelf....So what I mean 2 say is there isnt a corossover between the sociological/MIDI/classical perspectives. Each approach on it's oun cant fully explain what's goin on in the dance genre-that's why I think there's so much confution goin round.

(by the way, it's raining so I'm afraid everythng's gona get the long winded explanation 2day...coz I'm not leavin the house)

As 4 the leading note bizznizz, I think u're definitely right 2 experiment with the modal system aswell. We're told in composion lecture 2 "take a field day from tonality", as in the lecturer is trying 2 emphasise 2 the "noteheads" that u dont have 2 use a standard Western harmonic system...on the other hand, they dont take 2 wormly 2 my happy hardcore..."save that sort of work 4 your studio modules".....tut tut...

Looking more closely at the 2 basslines u can c that they r both simple, catchy and extreemly cliche'd. In context, they r both sequences, as in the same pattern is then repeated at at different pitch. Take the baseball 1, if I remember correctly it raises by a semitone each time, this creates tention 4 it's never resolivng anywhere. U must remember that music written specificaly 4 pirposes such as the media (TV/sports jingles....) has a whole new dimention and purpose so u wouldnt tend 2 opt 4 preffering such music (I know what u mean though...). The second bassline is funckyer, fair enuf, but wouldnt u then play:

F3 F3 C3 Eb....?

Blues scales...12 bar blues....cliche/formula?

When I'm writing choons I try all sorts of different modes, not only the major/minor scales. It goes 4 a lot though, not just harmony...think of rythm and form-that's why lost of pop/rock music boares me, it;s because people simply arent experimenting with all the resources we have.

(Pedal note: bass note that is held below changing harmonies)

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Message 46/46                 Date: 17-Apr-00  @  09:04 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

Harmony

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Heh, u must've posted whilst I was jibbering....

Well, better it's explained twice then not at all...

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