Original Message 1/22                 Date: 23-Feb-00  @  05:32 AM   -   I feel stupid...

stephenb

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Alright, time to swallow my pride and start asking some simple music theory questions. I've tried time and time again to learn, but lack of time and too much info not relevant to dance music always puts me off.

So take deep house/garage for example:

If I decide the key of a song, and want to make a bassline, what scale should I use - minor, major...what?

Should I bang out a bassline using the root and fifth notes? What rules do a simple bassline follow?

Once I know what key my song is in, how do I know what chords I can play with it?

Does house, or disco follow a chord progression?

I try not to let music theory ignorance get in my way, I'm still managing to churn out some nice house grooves, but time and time again it comes back to haunt me. So any theory tips relevant to making dance would be a welcome change. I just want some simple rules to point me in the right direction, I don't want to follow a dull formula, just lay down some rules that'd help or inspire me.

Hopefuly, any answers will benefit other people like myself who come from a dj'ing or more technical background.

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Message 2/22                 Date: 23-Feb-00  @  05:34 AM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

SB

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Shit! What happened to all the white space?

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Message 3/22                 Date: 23-Feb-00  @  02:51 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

daisuke

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Hi there,

I known it's pretty tough at first learning this things, since i figure out most of them by myself time ago. There may some innacurancies in the following stuff... but I'm pretty sure that I learned the basic ;)

I discover that... yes, there are rules, but they are not so much. Let's start.

When u have decided the key of a song you usually decide the minor / major stuff also, since the "minor" and "major" flavors lead to different notes in the scale. So for example if u decide that C is your key and "major" your flavor then you'll have the simple: C D E F G A B scale, instead if your choice is the "minor" one, well, you'll have the C D Eb F G Ab Gb scale (I didn't play this one... I hope it's correct).

As far as i known, the "minor" flavor is somewhat "sad"or "dark". After all, i think it's a personal choice, I think. If you are jamming around in, say, Dminor, and u find a nice riff your entire song should follow that scale.

Then... u've found that nice riff in that minor scale, right? Then the bassline should follow that scale also. Simple. Bassline however should follow the beats rather than your riffs... just listen to any decent track. Using the root and other notes of the chosen scale assure you to stay in tune with the rest of the song parts.

Chords. Again you chose the chords by playng only the notes in the scale. For example if your scale is C you can play the C major, A minor, D minor and so on.

There's ton of docs on the internet about chords... jum p to: http://www.harmony-central.com/ and take a look.

There's tip #1... stay on the scale!

bye.

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Message 4/22                 Date: 23-Feb-00  @  06:57 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

sitar

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By using 4th and 5ths along with the tonic in basslines you probably won't go wrong. But your "bass player" will become bored if that's all that's played. 1, 4, 5 is pretty standard bassline stuff.

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Message 5/22                 Date: 23-Feb-00  @  07:34 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

damballah

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Seems that in a lot of house stuff, they try to get the bassline funky and groovin' over that 4onthefloor drum pattern. Your bassline can follow a chord progression but more of them seem to dance around a single tonality. If you just bounce around I-V, you run the risk of it sounding like a Jane Fonda workout video (safe, but...). "What chords?" If you're doing a major key, just count the notes in that key 1 through 7. 1, 4 and 5 are Major; 2, 3 and 6 are minor; 7 is diminished (flatted fifth).

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Message 6/22                 Date: 23-Feb-00  @  10:21 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

casparproject

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minor is C D Eb F G Ab B not the origanally indicated C D Eb F G Ab Gb

peaceout

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Message 7/22                 Date: 23-Feb-00  @  10:30 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

casparproject

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Ok, the best way to do it is start with a bass line. let's say we're in Cminor and our bass line goes like this in eighth notes(-indicates a slur between notes) C-C up an octave C-C down to Ab Ab Ab G. The scale degrees here are 1 1 6 6 6 5. Now, lets start with figuring out what we can do with 1. Now, the standard thing to do is just do minor 1 chords over those 1s, but you can do a lot more. ie. modal mixture (using minor chords in a major key, or major chords in a minor one) are sometimes cool. I don't have kbd here, so if this progression sounds like shit, dont kill me. So for the first note, the bass is a lower C, so lets spell out a minor arpeggiation above that lower C.

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Message 8/22                 Date: 23-Feb-00  @  10:31 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

caspar

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let just for the sake of argument, make that higer C the root of a major chord.

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Message 9/22                 Date: 23-Feb-00  @  10:39 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

caspar

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ok, the keybd on this forum donrt seem to be workin, so here goes, i'll give you the chords in the full progression. C Eb G.....C E G.....Ab C F (for two of the eights......Ab D F..... G B D it should sound alright. this is pretty basic. the first chord is a minor 1 chord (I) the second chrd is a minor 1 chord (i) the third chrd is minor 4 chord in first inversion (this means that the bass note is actually the second note in the chord, this chord is notated as iv6) the fifth chord is a minor 2 chrd in second inversion (which means the bass note is actually the third note in the chord, this chord is indicated as ii6/4) then the last chord is a 5 chord, which is major whethor its in the major or minor mode.

Peaceout

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Message 10/22                 Date: 23-Feb-00  @  10:41 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

casparq

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sorry, what i indicated as the fifth chord was the fourth, sorry.

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Message 11/22                 Date: 24-Feb-00  @  05:35 AM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

SB

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So far so good, but what about the choice between minor or major? Does it always equate to happy or sad? I have it in my head I've read somewhere that most house chords are minor - is this true?

The thing is, I've been making tracks for about two years now and every so often I seem to panic about theory. It's like I'm terrified that someone will listen to one of my tracks and say "that's out of key". I try to trust my ears, but I just need some knowledge to help me get the music out of my head and into a track. Basslines and riffs are not a problem (knowing the basics helps though), the nightmare is when I try to lay some chords on top...it's all starting to come together slowly though!

Again pardon my ignorance, but what's a tonic?

I know there's tons of music theory on the web, but none that directly relates to dance music.

"you choose the chords by playing only the notes in the scale"...out of everything I've read, nothing has been said on this! Well maybe it has, but was just written in such a mind numbingly boring way that I never picked it up.

Getting advice from other dance orientated musicians makes it so much easier to understand - cheers for your patience!

So much to learn, so little time...

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Message 12/22                 Date: 24-Feb-00  @  10:08 AM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

k

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caspar, are U using a mac netscape 4.6 or 4.7 browser?.. it is bugged to fuck and useless... the grid displays fine

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Message 13/22                 Date: 24-Feb-00  @  12:45 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

damballah

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F$#@ ME! The orange is showing up today on my work Mac's Nutscape. F'ing weird!

The tonic: The thing you mix with the gin ~ . If you're piece is in A, then A is the tonic, or the I (one).

Are you building your song around a chord progression? Are are you wanting to use chord stabs? You can do a chordal melody by putting your melodic line on top and harmonizing underneath it. Maybe a variation on or something that responds to your bass line?

Sometimes it's the "wrong" notes that give the tension or the dissonance that contrasts with the "right" notes. Some jazz player, I forget who, said something to the effect of if you play one wrong note, play it three or four more times emphatically and people will think you meant it. It's OK to know what the right notes are as long as you're not handcuffed by that knowledge.

Be careful of over-harmonizing things, too. Sometimes transposing something around so the tonal center moves around can sound better than making sure all the notes conform the the key you've "decided" that the work is in. Revert to saved! There's songs that are all dominant seventh chords, no straight triads, no minors where they should normally be, and if done right, it rocks.

And don't feel stupid. You never stop learning or progressing as long as you keep trying.

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Message 14/22                 Date: 24-Feb-00  @  06:08 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

sitarsong

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Yes. Don't feel stupid. Damballah put it aptly.

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Message 15/22                 Date: 24-Feb-00  @  06:59 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

the dude etc

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another thing to consider is is the inversion of the chord. meaning a c major chord is with no inversion is just c e f, but with one inversion its e f then thenext higher c, after two inversions its f e c then three inversions would take you up an octave. kinda stupid , but also kinda useful i guess.

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Message 16/22                 Date: 24-Feb-00  @  07:39 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

p.

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being a tight ass, but capsar and daisuke both played minor scales, just theoretically slightly different. caspar's is a harmonic minor scale and daisuke wrote a melodic minor scale. anyhoo, about the minor vs major thing, don't give it another thought. if yer ear likes it, do it. remember, theory spawns from convention, it doesn't define it tho. if you're really into learnin ideas behind bass lines for house, i'd recommend pickin up some old disco and funk, figuring out the key a song is in and trying to learn the bass lines(this will help train your ear which will in turn help your writing and your ability to get out what's in your head). i don't mean learn to play bass, i mean be able to hum the lines and know what notes they are in relation to the key of the song. which brings me to another point, it'll really help your playing if you can figure out progressions in other house, disco or funk tunes. trust me, if you can hear the chords in other peoples songs, you can utilize those ideas.

so bout the bass lines: 1-4-5 and b7 are always good for bass lines. also important are "pick up" notes, that is, usually a note a 1/2 step above or below the note your playing on the beat (pick up notes are usually 1/8 or 1/16 notes). they're used to give movement to the bass lines.

-p.

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Message 17/22                 Date: 25-Feb-00  @  10:14 AM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

daisuke

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To recap:
I would bet my minor scale was wrong, a stupid typo got in the way. My mistyped version is C D Eb F G Ab Gb, should be C D Eb F G Ab Bb. Like "p" said: a melodic minor scale. to get melodic u "flatten" 3rd, 6th and 7th note of the scale. To get the harmonic one you "flatten" only the 3rd and 6th note. Just correct me ya guys if this is wrong. I'm a newbie also. ;)

And back to the bassline issue, check:

http://www.harmony-central.com/Bass/Articles/Running_with_the_Bass/00index3.html

bye

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Message 18/22                 Date: 03-Mar-00  @  03:35 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

99devils

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My guitar teacher likes to say that if you play a dischordant note only once, then it's a "wrong" note. If you play it more than once, it's simply a dissonant chord ;-)

Your ears are the best guide.

-Craig

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Message 19/22                 Date: 11-Mar-00  @  07:36 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

opus636

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You look stupid ! and your mother dresses you funny!:-)

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Message 20/22                 Date: 13-Mar-00  @  12:03 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

SB

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Hey! I'll have you know my mother's got great taste in boys clothes...

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Message 21/22                 Date: 15-Mar-00  @  10:07 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

Defector_Z

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Craig - there are no mistakes in music, only bad notes. :-)

I think p. hit it. Trust your ear. One thing I like to do (if I wasn't so lazy, i'd point you to some tunes that I've written and put up on the web - but I'm lazy and don't have anything up) is alternate between major and minor. Key changes are very effective when used properly. You can change keys from one section of a song to another (maybe from the main riff to the bridge, etc.) or you could even do it in the main progression. Try playing chords Aminor for 4 beats, Dminor for 3 beats, Amajor for 1 beat, and go where your ear takes you.

I know classical theory, some jazz theory, and rock theory. Never heard of dance theory. Hmmm.

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Message 22/22                 Date: 17-Mar-00  @  02:41 PM   -   RE: I feel stupid...

nomad

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i dunno if this relates, but harmony central
had something called "running with the bass"
one of those tutorial type things. it's really
for bass guitar but it talks about doing
interesting bass lines over a given chord
progression. decent reading.

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