Original Message 1/17                 Date: 17-Dec-00  @  11:01 PM   -   EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

DIGITAL CHICKEN

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hello everyone....!

right, here goes - i have a decent set-up here at home; akai, nova, 101, couple of synths, drumstation, etc. i sequence and record audio on my beloved (but sometimes HIGHLY BASTARD IRRITATING) pc.

here's my problem. as anyone out there using audio and plug ins, etc, will know, it's amazingly inspiring in terms of creativity, but i have trouble with eq and getting mixes sounding decent on more than a few systems. there i am, getting the drum track chugging along happily, then - bam! - i know, i'll record this into audio, and put this effect on it, etc. the problem is that i'm very often reluctant to record things because my eq'ing and final mix skills are minimal. i'm always thinking yeah, sounds shit-hot through my krk monitors (i know, i know, piss ant bass response, etc, stop fucking shouting, will you?) but play it through anything else, and hey - IT'S A TOTALLY NEW REMIX BY A DEAF SOUND ENGINEER!

SO........

i worry that much about making commitments to recording stuff that i find it extremely hindering to creativity. i ususally set the levels of what i want to record as high as possible, record it flat and go from there. but then, if the sound needs this freq. rolling off, and this one added, it means eq'ing individual sounds on the pc which is Pain-in-the-arseville, Tenessee.

maybe my main problem is a total lack of understanding when it comes to recording through nearfields, keeping everything flat and so on. i actually managed to get a track sounding good on a lot of systems not too long ago, but the method i used to achieve this was fucking ludicrous!! it involved recording what sounded good in my 'studio' onto dat, taking the dat into my bedroom and running it through my hi-fi to see what adjustments needed to be made. TOO MUCH BASS!! ok, roll some off....try again. MORE TOP END!! do that, for fuck's sakes - NOT ENOUGH BASS, TOO MUCH LOW MIDDLE!! etc, etc.

i really don't want to continue with this way of working, i even tried lugging my hi-fi in here and mixing through it. surprise, surprise, it sounded shite in my car!

i'm not expecting to have instant results or anything, but it's just always in the back of my mind that when i'm recording this and that into audio, that i might be just creating extra work for myself later.

also, some people say 'have every sound in it's own frequency range, so it has it's own space', others say this is nonsense and to just trust your ears! well, i haven't got a clue about frequency ranges and how to get things sounding spatial and balanced through the sole use of eq, but on the other hand, if i trusted my ears (when it comes to these monitors, at least) on this system alone, i'd be fucked!!

guys, help me - please.

i have an amazing passion for electronic music but i ALWAYS get seriously depressed when i record a track, it sounds shit, and i feel like i've wasted a lot of time and energy. as you all know, this kind of music (dance, etc) is totally sound dependant; fair enough with guitars and more natural instruments...it's going to be the same song on someone elses guitar, piano, etc, but if i sample THAT sound, that's the one i want to hear!

perhaps i should stop crying like a little girl and just write a tune, take a cdr with all the individual audio tracks to a pro-end studio, bung 'em some cash and hope they can save the day.

:-(

yours, dc!

(p.s. how fucking long is this message??!? sorry!)

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Message 2/17                 Date: 18-Dec-00  @  04:45 PM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

teemu

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You could try spending a few days doing nothing else but listening to commercial records that are similar in style to your music. You should get this image in your head of what the mix should sound like. This much bass, that much snare, yadda yadda. Then go back to your music and try to transfer that spectral image into your music.

Another thing you might try is to get a mixer with hands on control and/or some outboard eq's and and compressors. Computers lack that hands-on control that is essential to some musicians. Software has the same quality and half the price of hardware these days but I still prefer hardware, editing things with a mouse is pain. Just think of playing the guitar with a mouse... even if the computer program could make 100% authentic guitar sounds it still wouldn't be the same. It's the same with knobs and buttons.

A third thing you could try is simple realtime A/B'ing. Play your track for a few bars , then switch to a commercial record with a similar sound. Then back to your track and edit the dynamics (eq and compressing), then back to the commercial track, and so on, until you have a similar spectral balance. Then do some minor editing until it sounds the way you like.

Hope this helps

(And by the way, what's wrong with the KRK's? I have the KRok's and I love them. Do you have a flat amplifier? Hifi amps REALLY mess up the sound, you should use one that doesn't colour the sound in any way)

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Message 3/17                 Date: 19-Dec-00  @  11:43 PM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

DIGITAL CHICKEN

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cheers for the advice, teemu! trouble is, now i know my ears must be buggered, as i do pretty much what you said, try to mix alongside cd's, etc, and my amp is a servo 150 - therefore it is flat!! DOH! and i have an analogue mixer!

what's your opinion on headphone mixing? the acoustics in my room are crap and (maybe as a result of this) things don't sound too hot through these speakers...so sometimes i try a/b'ing as you put it, through headphones - that way surely, you should be able to get a much clearer sound; pan positioning, reverb times, how delays move, prominence of some sounds in comparison to others, etc. but when i do this and get quite near to the sound i'm referencing against (cd, whatever) then run it through my monitors, it sounds terrible! it sounds a million miles away from the very same reference track.....

i think i should just stick with it and practise, practise, practise until i maybe start getting some decent results. i just don't know!

thanks anyway, yours - d.c.

p.s. apologies for the amount of swearing in the original post (i sounded like a fucking savage! haha)

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Message 4/17                 Date: 20-Dec-00  @  02:54 PM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

teemu

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There's one basic rule when it comes to mixing with headphones: Don't do it. After my amp blew up I mixed with headphones only for about a year. The result? All my mixes sound crap now. Now that I have the monitors I need to learn it all from the beginning, eq'ing, balancing levels, all that. Headphones are very detailed but the general image is just wrong. A mix made with phones sounds crap everywhere else. My mixes ended up very bassy, muddy and didn't have much detail to talk about.

It's ok to check details with phones but you should never make a mix without decent monitors.

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Message 5/17                 Date: 20-Dec-00  @  03:15 PM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

Defector Z

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Dude...relax. You're facing the same thing that so many of us have faced. Getting a good mix takes a fuck load of time and work. It requires mistakes, and perserverance to correct those mistakes. You've got to keep working at it.

There are a lot of other threads about mixing that you should read, if you haven't already. I've posted many a mix question and got some seriously helpful advice. Run a search on "isolation", "mixing", "professional" and that'll be sure to give you some good advice.

You also have to realize that it's going to be near impossible for you to get a pro sounding mix without using pro gear. There's a good reason why pro studio's will spend $7k (US) on a limiter. But, with hard work, you'll get a damn good amatuer mix.

Also, don't forget the mastering stage, either. I had my cd mastered by someone else for a fair price, and it sounded so much BETTER! I mixed it as good as I could, and then said "enough, time to move on". Keep your head up, and stick with it. It'll piss you off sometimes, but you have to be up to the challenge. This isn't easy like so many people think.

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Message 6/17                 Date: 21-Dec-00  @  12:01 AM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

DIGITAL CHICKEN

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thanks for the advice, this site (along with the people, of course) is a massive help - you made some GOOD points there, d.z., of which i have taken notice...you too, teemu. i think i'm just a scared of hard work - loser!!!

no, it's like the more i hear a track of mine - which obviously is going to be a lot when your mixing down - i get tired of hearing it, and then start thinking 'who am i kidding, it's shite!' and this puts me right off. saying that, when i've recorded stuff, even just bits of ideas that i had at the time, i can listen to them a couple of months later and think 'that sounds pretty good, actually'. so maybe i should be more objective, get longer breaks between tracks and like d.z. said.....relax!!

thanks a lot for listening, yours d.c. (maff)

p.s. how true it is that ignorant people think dance music is piss easy, and HOW it annoys me.

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Message 7/17                 Date: 21-Dec-00  @  06:05 AM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

Defector Z

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That's EXACTLY what I first thought. I learned very quickly that I would be lost (I think it was the first Future Music magazine I picked up).

It's very easy to get sick of a song. Here's an easy way to slow that process.

1. have a couple of different tracks to work on. I usually have 4 or 5 to distract me.

2. Write your song - leave the eq alone, don't worry so much about fx, or panning or what-not. Just write.

3. Take a couple days (even weeks - what's the rush?) away from your track. There's a tune on my cd that I wrote back in Feb, or March. Hated it - but kept it. In November, I reloaded it, reworked it a little - and now it's one of the better bangin' songs there. It's strange how time away can do that.

4. Now mix. Start writing down some eq settings. Starting with the drums, and mix up. Add each instrument one at a time and make it FIT. But before you mix it down - you've got to break it up.

5. Now your track is written and mixed. Now record. And get away from it for a while.

That works good for me. Don't be afraid to take an old track in a new direction. These things are organic - let them grow, but at some point you need to let go. They're like your children. You love them, but there comes a point when you need to let go. It's not perfect, but you've got to tell yourself that this is the best I can do with what I have. And MOVE ON. Very important.

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Message 8/17                 Date: 21-Dec-00  @  08:57 AM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

digital chicken

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thanks loads, d.z.

i like how you said when mixing down to strip it all away, add each sound and make them fit...this could be an eye opener, as usually, when i've got a track going and have spent ages adding each sound and fitting them in, i feel like the entire thing is relying on those SOUNDS - thus making me afraid to ditch them. but as you said also (smart-arse, haha), music is 'organic' and you shouldn't be afraid to change things within a track to achieve what you want to.

aaaahhhh.....one day, i'll get to give a track to some mastering house and be blown away when i get it back.....one day......

thanks again, d.c. (maff)!

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Message 9/17                 Date: 21-Dec-00  @  07:38 PM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

yan

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it took me 4 fuking year's to get the gear i wanted....just keep going

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Message 10/17                 Date: 29-Dec-00  @  04:05 PM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

stephen.ayres

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Yo D.C here`s some useful tips

Mixing and the desk

The most important thing that you must consider when mixing a track (dance) is that your sounds must be spot on before touching any EQ. The EQ on a desk should be used more as a minor correcting device, mainly for cutting frequencies rather than boosting.
Use the amps, filters and envelope generators in your instruments to shape the sounds as best as you can and use the desk EQ and FX as a sprinkler ontop.
If you learn to program your sounds right then riffs and music will come out of those sounds.

Monitors and EQ

Because you`ve spent your life listening to music on hifi and club speakers your instant response to studio monitors is to crank up the bass!
Don`t do it, flatten everything! The rule with monitors is that if anything sticks out or sounds slightly (just slight even) wrong then it will be greatly enhanced by any normal system.
If you over effect a sound with reverb on your KRK`s then that will sound massively wrong on all else. The same with bass. If it`s a 909 kick for example then use the filter on the sampler and the ENV`s to get the tone and shape of the sound right then flatten the f*cker with your EQ. This will also add a bit of artificial compression to the sound when you cut freqencies from the signal.
I could go on all day y`know, e-mail me if you need any other advice.........
Remember, keep it flat, keep if smooth and it will transfer!

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Message 11/17                 Date: 30-Dec-00  @  11:44 PM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

Defector Z

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Well, I will disagree politely with one thing that stephen said above. Personally, it wasn't until I really went WHACK on my mixer that I discovered ways to mix better. Personally, I do ALOT of stuff on the mixer, and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. I say, learn to play your mixer like it was another instrument. Because truly, it is. you can shape and sculpt sounds on it like you do with any other piece of gear you have. If you get a sound that doesn't need tweaking, fine. Keep it. If you have a sound that needs a little punch, you can certainly add it on the mixer. Especially if your gear can't provide it.

Otherwise, I agree with Stephen.

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Message 12/17                 Date: 10-Jan-01  @  11:00 PM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

stephen

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Yes you are right Defector Z you can use the desk as a device to enhance sounds, and every producer has a slightly different approach to how he/she mixers their material. However, if you`re using an `analogue` desk, at the budget end of the market (say under 2 grands worth), then I would be inclined to say that too much eq will mess with your signal and can put some nasty colouration on your sounds. This is not really noticable to the untrained ear, but when you get to the mastering stage of a track and are referencing against other material you will find that the use of too much `cheap` eq will create harsh overtones in the mid range and top and unbalanced bass at the bottom.
However, if you are using a high spec desk it really is a different ballgame, the eq then becomes a real tool to mess with.
All too often people blame the desk and monitors for dodgy mixes, but if the sounds arn`t spot in the first place, then no amount of eq is gonna sort it (this is something that took me years to work out!)
On the other hand, a bit of harsh eqing can sometimes create some great results, if that`s what your after. (rules are made to be broken, but you have to learn the rules before they can be broken)

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Message 13/17                 Date: 11-Jan-01  @  07:24 AM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

teemu

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If you got a cheap desk you should mostly cut with eq, as boosting sounds sounds crap in most cases. Especially because the eq on cheap desks never has a Q knob so you can't boost anything accurately. The question is why don't they make cheap-ish desks with Q? It would probably not make the desk THAT much more expensive but it would make it a lot more versatile.

You should buy a good external parametric eq in any case though and use that for most sounds, it can really make a difference.

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Message 14/17                 Date: 11-Jan-01  @  08:28 PM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

stephen

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The Q function is used to broaden and narrow the bandwidth of the frequency you are eqing and yes it is a very useful function for very precise eqing of a signal. However, my point was more to do with the general lack of quality of the signal path on cheaper desks. Over eqing a sound through these cheaper components can have adverse affects on your sound and create a nasty harshness to certain frequency areas.
The reason why manufactures do not incorporate this into their design is because there are other functions which are more important on smaller desks, like input channels, busses, no. of eq bands, and aux sends and returns.
You can survive without parametrics, but none of the above really.

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Message 15/17                 Date: 12-Jan-01  @  06:51 AM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

influx

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hence the reason I pointed out the Alesis. Parametric mid. with a Q knob 

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Message 16/17                 Date: 15-Jan-01  @  04:49 PM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

ville

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great thread...

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Message 17/17                 Date: 15-Jan-01  @  09:37 PM   -   RE: EQ, RECORDING AUDIO AN' ALL THAT BOLLOCKS

phunkytek

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anyone know how to do a good job mastering a dance track in wavelab or other software platform. Do you eg first then multiband then peak limit? I need a frame of referance. I can't find any books on the subject either.

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