Original Message 1/59                 Date: 29-Nov-00  @  03:16 PM   -   punchy kick drums

bassbrap

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how do i make my kick drums sound better? i have been trying everything: eq, hp filter, compression, adding transient waves in tune with the bassline.... no matter how hard i try, my kicks sound all muddy in the mix, i cannot get that good "thud", nor can i get the kick to blend well with the bass. i usually use 909 samples or other 909-type kicks running out of my ASR-10.

thanks

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Message 2/59                 Date: 29-Nov-00  @  04:55 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

mitub

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There was a discussion ages ago about crunchy drum noises, try searching for 'CRUNCHY DRUM SOUNDS' in the main forum.

All this has been said before but hey.

I generally trigger another fairly subtle noise along with a fairly dull kick (currently favoring a sharp rim with the eq cutting off the high frequencies), this kind of gives the initial punch noise and the underlying drum kind of carries the bass past the initial kick. You can also apply fx to the rim (or whatever noise you use) seperatly to the kick. Also, if the drum is sounding really muddy, try cutting the *really* low frequencies with a decent filter, I didn't realise how much subsonic noise I had on my kicks until I took my kit round to a friends house where he had a proper PA system, cutting it made the world of difference and it also lets the bassline shine through.

If you haven't already tried it, you could give Stomper Ultra a go, a free PC drum synth that exports WAVs. I'd be very curious to know how some of the pro's do it, especially the NU-NRG type kick thats common with Nukleuz and the like at the moment. Anybody?

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Message 3/59                 Date: 29-Nov-00  @  05:34 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

bassbrap

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i'll check out that forum... I'll also try a "clickey" type sound over it.

i have stomper and have just started actually using it some. that was what i have been using to double the kick in tune with the bass.

sorry to be ignorant, but what is NU-NRG? i live a sheltered life in the central us.

thanks

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Message 4/59                 Date: 30-Nov-00  @  01:01 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

influx

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wouldnt sampling something that already sounds punchy work? ASR 10 is supposed to have a good warm sound, so..

if you found a drumsound that sounds like you like it, and sampled it at the right level and all...it should sound good. with no more processing necessary except to taste?

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Message 5/59                 Date: 30-Nov-00  @  01:48 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

bassbrap

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i guess i could just sample from a record or cd, but i am weary of sampling others' music. i might give it a shot though. i just get hung up on trying not to use the same sounds.

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Message 6/59                 Date: 30-Nov-00  @  06:45 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

damballah

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it's mostly eq. you probably have some frequencies needing cut, that usually cleans up mud.

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Message 7/59                 Date: 30-Nov-00  @  10:29 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

mitub

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What is NU-NRG? Its a decendent of hardhouse dance music doing the rounds in the uk, I personally love it, really energy oriented, a little more streamlined than HH; ehmmm... don't really know how to explain it. If you're interested, check out the nu-nrg section at this website.

www.bangingtunes.com

(you can search for HardHouse, NU-NRG, Trance, HardTrance, AcidTechno or Psychodelic tracks by artist / name released over the last few years and listen to them as well)

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Message 8/59                 Date: 30-Nov-00  @  10:48 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

teemu

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"wouldnt sampling something that already sounds punchy work?"

I wouldn't advice to sample everything. It's SO easy to just sample a well-produced record and never learn how to do it by yourself. There are already millions of artists sounding alike and it only seems to get worse. The sampling technology was supposed to break boundaries, not make them. The same with computers, they could make computers do anything but instead they make programs that emulate 20 years old synths or programs that create "music" by choosing which loop to use.

Don't sample, do it on your own. Or if you sample, be creative. Don't sample a house record if you want to make a house record, it is lame. Sample something and turn it into something completely different. That's what the original hip hop culture was about, using old funk records to create something new. Nothing new has happened in the last 8-10 years though... sad, really.

Yes, I am a nazi ;)

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Message 9/59                 Date: 30-Nov-00  @  03:13 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

bassbrap

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that is basically my opinion on sampling as well, teemu, you nazi.

NU-NRG....interesting, sounds like a cross between hard house, trance, with a little bit of speed garage and hardcore. can't say i've heard anything like it here in the states, but then again i don't get out much.

peace

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Message 10/59                 Date: 30-Nov-00  @  04:57 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

k

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Nothing new has happened in the last 8-10 years though...

!???! - huh?

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Message 11/59                 Date: 01-Dec-00  @  10:32 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

influx

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teemu. sampling a kick drum is not exactly treading water really.

nothing new in 10 years? hmmm. pretty bold statement!

well, then fella...you want your own sounds...trial and error. keep workin. take notes. read trade mags and maybe some books..and on and on. then youll find out how to do it yourself.

isnt, uh, sampling...the same as ASKING how do I do this? 

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Message 12/59                 Date: 01-Dec-00  @  01:54 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

teemu

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"teemu. sampling a kick drum is not exactly treading water really. "

Depends on how you do it. Sampling something to make something new is ok, sampling something because you aren't able to do it yourself is not.

I would love to make kick drums as punchy as Daft Punk's. But instead of sampling them I learn how to use the eq and the compressor better. My music sucks now but when I learn all the tricks I will be good and, more importantly, original. If I just sampled everything instead of learning how to do them myself I would be able to make good music a lot faster but it wouldn't be original, it would be just me ripping off some artists.

"nothing new in 10 years? hmmm. pretty bold statement! "

More or less. The last really new thing was the birth of drum'n'bass and that happened 9 or 10 years ago. Production quality is now 10x better than 10 years ago but music-wise there hasn't been happening that much lately.

"isnt, uh, sampling...the same as ASKING how do I do this?  "

Err... NO

Sampling a guitar melody from Hendrix is not the same thing as asking him to teach you a few tricks =)

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Message 13/59                 Date: 01-Dec-00  @  04:35 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

nobody

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"nothing new in 10 years? hmmm. pretty bold statement! "

'More or less. The last really new thing was the birth of drum'n'bass and that happened 9 or 10 years ago. Production quality is now 10x better than 10 years ago but music-wise there hasn't been happening that much lately.'

i find it hard to believe that you could make such a BROAD asessment like this. so.. have you heard ALL MUSIC then? come on.. just because you haven't actively looked, does not mean it's not there. examples? no, that's not my place

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Message 14/59                 Date: 02-Dec-00  @  12:43 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

Pongoid

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K,
let me get a bit more encoded and stored on the net, I'l let you smell something new.


Ape

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Message 15/59                 Date: 02-Dec-00  @  06:57 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

influx

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sampling someones kick drums. sorry..but that doesnt fall into my idea of fakin it.

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Message 16/59                 Date: 02-Dec-00  @  06:25 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

k

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"More or less. The last really new thing was the birth of drum'n'bass and that happened 9 or 10 years ago. Production quality is now 10x better than 10 years ago but music-wise there hasn't been happening that much lately"

please !!... give up teemu cos, no offense, but you're talking total shite mate  

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Message 17/59                 Date: 03-Dec-00  @  02:41 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

k

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... and i mean that in the nicest possible way.. :-).. i mean.. how can you say that?... there's always something going on & changing

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Message 18/59                 Date: 03-Dec-00  @  12:32 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

johnny

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k, ever the diplomat.

I wouldn't go as far to say nothing's changed in the last 10 MONTHS, never mind YEARS. Put another way, I couldn't envisage many records from today being released in 1990. So yeah, total shite ;-)

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Message 19/59                 Date: 03-Dec-00  @  02:00 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

r-tek

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the 90s were truly a beautiful decade for electronic music imo, mebbe there wasn`t as much that was totally different, but music progressed so far and so many different offshoots of those original forms popped their head up - nu skool breaks anyone? . Just my opinion, but I happen to trust it.And "...I would love to make kick drums as punchy as Daft Punk's..." - mebbe you should be aware of the fact that they use an emu sp1200 for a lot of their drum duties which is a machine that requires no more than work than simply sampling the drums into it to get them so punchy and fat so they aint exactly working for *that* sound themselves, they just had the moolah to get it easily. So whats so wrong with sampling the damn thing then? This is afterall, all about the final product, not how you got there.

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Message 20/59                 Date: 03-Dec-00  @  04:11 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

k

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emax gets you the same sound as an sp12 - and they are supercheap & you can get even an sp12 disk for ther emax... same manufacturer (e-mu) so they just ported the samples - both are 12 bit so the same sound is there

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Message 21/59                 Date: 05-Dec-00  @  03:18 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

phunkytek

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I get my kicks punchy useing it's own channel strip on the mixer. So I can eq it and mix it independant from any other sound. Try setting the eq to lowshelve and boost it 3-4Db at 30-45Hz. This actualy boost everything under 45. so it doesn't realy change the sound of the drum but pumps the vibration from the sub harmonics into the mix and thus you have that hit in your chest but the drum is clear and crisp. works great and 909 samples are my staple diet these days.

Hey k, Are the emax's filters midi controlable.

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Message 22/59                 Date: 05-Dec-00  @  05:22 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

r-tek

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the emax and sp1200 are slightly different soundwise - the sp has higher quality DACs and according to that bloke that seems to know everything over at the gas station, stores it samples as true 12 bit whilst the emax does it in 8. But the SPs sample rate tops out at 22khz whilst the emax will go upto 42 (I think). The SP has shittyily fixed filter frequencies on the outs too sans rez.....and fuckall memory, but I guess its only for drums so it dunnae matter so much. If memory serves, you can assign controllers to all sorts of things on the emax, including the filter frequency.....tho I may be wrong. Nice sampler, getting old now tho and storing everything on floppy might do your head in.

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Message 23/59                 Date: 05-Dec-00  @  10:22 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

0/d

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i normally get punchy kicks at home with the parametric eq in the sampler,you have to resample and do it 4 to 8 times to get it just right,and its worth doing loads of times espeacially if its a crap kick(but a nice one)draw out its nice frequencies and tell the horrible ones to fuck off.its always best to get the raw sound sounding as good you can before you start putting fx on.

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Message 24/59                 Date: 06-Dec-00  @  06:48 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

k

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yeah it's all midi assingnable, VERY punchy drum sample player they are so cheap now, get a rack and you'd be in thumping drum heaven

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Message 25/59                 Date: 06-Dec-00  @  11:04 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

phunkytek

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Do you think it will sound better than my e4? It supports e3 format too right. I guees i could export my presets as e3 and load them into the emax. 8 megs is plenty for a dedicated drum sampler. Is it scsi?

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Message 26/59                 Date: 06-Dec-00  @  11:47 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

r-tek

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uhhh.....the e4 is like the emax4, and e3 format is the native format for the emax3 so theres no way the emax1 will read emax3 samples I`m afraid   8 megs? Half a meg more like. No scsi - its has this rs23..something or other but you willnae find anything to hook it upto nowadays.......mebbe an old mac with that old digidesign SW so unless you pick up an emaxHD, its floppy or nowt.I would say sound for sound, the emax sounds way better than the e4 due to that certain 12bit something you cant put yer finger on and those analogue filters (lopass only). For some reason, 12 bit samplers seem to have a higher fidelity sound if you sample with the highest sample rate, dunno why.......prolly just perceived more than anything cos they bite a bit harder than 16bit.....but course you can do more with modern samplers soundmangling wise. They *really* should make a modern 12 bit sampler but with all the facilites we`re used to nowadays, it`d be quite a piece if they goddit right.

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Message 27/59                 Date: 06-Dec-00  @  11:52 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

nobody

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rs-232

i think my old ST had that for monitor?

something

maybe amiga

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Message 28/59                 Date: 07-Dec-00  @  06:27 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

phunkytek

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I sent a memo to emu asking them to impliment 12bit-support in their samplers, and i thought it would be nice if all these multi-track sequencing software developers would allow you to run 12 bit on tracks next to 24 bit. 12bit on drum tracks and higher for accoustics and vocals. Everything I've read about the old 12bits is the that they sound more processed and gritty, not better fidelity though. I think the filters definatly have something to with it. My e4 sounds fat as hell. i do everything with it now. I sample my nova, 101, juno 106, and bass station. And run it throught the filters on the emu. I prefer the sound. It's envelops are fast and the filters girgle and sound very analog. The patches sound exactly like the original with out all the line noise and cv/gate problems. Modulation is a snap. And layering is awsome. I'm in the middle of sampling all of the settings of my analogs with the filter open and rez off so i can emulate them properly. They make the best presets. I have an ultra on the way with an Rfx card and then i'm selling all my gear except my two samplers. I can even create preset synth parts with the vst instument demos and stomper sofware.

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Message 29/59                 Date: 10-Dec-00  @  01:28 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

r-tek

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untill it died, I ran an emax alongside my e4 and imo at least, the emax sounded clearer and crisper than the e4 at the highest sample rate. The 16bit emus seem to lack a little highend definition in comparison to others, especially akai.I`d hold off from seeling an efx boxes you have to be honest for now at least - looking at the pdf for the rfx at emus site, there dont seem to be too many efx algorithms on it yet so it still might need some help.

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Message 30/59                 Date: 10-Dec-00  @  03:06 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

casparproject

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I had an emax for a brief period.
Great analog filters, but less than a
meg of sampling? Ouch. Fine for
drums, and that's about it.

Peaceout,

Peter

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Message 31/59                 Date: 11-Dec-00  @  03:58 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

influx

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and loading from floppies. ewww

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Message 32/59                 Date: 13-Dec-00  @  08:28 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

k

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didnt you get into the superb pads & strings & sawtooth sweeps etc etc too ?? - takes about 30 seconds to load a full disk of presets

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Message 33/59                 Date: 14-Dec-00  @  08:25 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

influx

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30 seconds is way too long in my world 

when I had mine I got some pretty damn cool sounds out of it. solid basses, swooshy sounds, etc...

but I still like my E4 

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Message 34/59                 Date: 14-Dec-00  @  09:21 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

k

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oh you got an e-4!... ok , but the emax especially the rack is a hidden jewel as an 8 out 12 bit drum (and other sounds) player... they are soo rediculously cheap now they piss on any 8 out drum box you can name, with full synthesis of each drum, analog res' filters, and very hi quality converters... and THAT 12 bit sound you cannot get anywhere else but from e-mu 12 bit machines - old 12 bit akai's whilst great are more metallic sounding whereas e-mu 12 bit drums can literaly rip out your speakers with that characteristic thumping 12 bit sound.. it's one of the few drawbacks to a s/w only mix i reckon cos internal pc 12 bit just isnt the same at all... you could wire an emax rack into a pc rack tho !! :-)

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Message 35/59                 Date: 15-Dec-00  @  11:17 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

influx

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yeah..its funny cuz when I had mine..the KB version...3 years ago I got it for $200 and that was a hell of a deal I think.

see the racks for that now. If I ever have the kind of studio that allows for "icing" Ill get one of those im sure. I liked it. very easy to use, and it sure does sound, well, warm.

too bad ASR10s are still a grand cuz they sound nice too.

but nothin beats an emax for $300 or so...8 outs..thats a hell of a feature...considered an OPTION on pretty much any other piece, no?

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Message 36/59                 Date: 16-Dec-00  @  12:07 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

bricks

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ASR10s aren't always a grand, i bought mine 2 years ago for $800 maxed out, and i have seen 'em as low as $500-600. you just gotta keep your eyes peeled. what about the Ensoniq EPS? similar in spec as the emax (13 bit, yes, i shit you not, 13 bit) and you can find 'em for $300.

y'alls making me want to buy an old emax though  

peace

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Message 37/59                 Date: 16-Dec-00  @  08:02 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

influx

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I dont need a sampler  If for some reason I ever felt the need to be..uh..NOT minimal...whatever taht means...id get a couple more pieces of gear to just make noize with.

an emax might be one of em.

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Message 38/59                 Date: 18-Dec-00  @  03:15 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

k

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well, the thing about emax is this.. like influx said 200 is peanuts... they were 3 thousand on release !!! - it's a VERY hight quality instrument with a fat warm analog filter/12 bit sound

it has 8 seperate outs that can act as drum outs (they are monophonic, but are two voices per key!)

you can have an 8in rack and route it into a mix in vst etc for mixdown and the stereo out on it they utilises pan fx etc for the pads, strings, organs, etcetc, the library is huge and the sounds are VERY good and unique. it does do analog sweep filter synth sounds, square & saw waves etc, pizz strings to die for NOTHING comes close to emax strings i dont thing for the same midrange sound that real strings have both as ensembles and as solo instruments.. the filters, samples themselves, and the filters all combine to make the most amazing upfront 'woody' sounding strings of all types, brass again has a metallic qauality the is so upfront and with the horn hits and theings and the roting optionsd for control you ca make realistic brass on it... pads are great, 200 bucks! -

so when you want to use it for stereo sounds, just plug it in stereo to the pc rack, compose & record the audio... those tama snares were done on an emax (front page news column) check out the sound in sc-drums, lm4 or lm9 etc... its a sound

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Message 39/59                 Date: 18-Dec-00  @  05:01 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

nobody

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so uh.. someone find me one ;)

all this talk makes me drool. i'd sell my airbase & have cash left over! hmm.... all i'd have to do is find one it really good shape, sample about 1200 sounds from airbase & find someone to buy it. well maybe not. damn you! you have made me want! not like i really need. you see? grrr. smack self in head with plastic bottle & fume. hi.

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Message 40/59                 Date: 18-Dec-00  @  05:06 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

r-tek

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just make sure you get a good un mr alien and you`ll be in crispy crunchy big and bouncy meaty beaty heaven.

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Message 41/59                 Date: 18-Dec-00  @  11:04 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

nobody

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essentially what i was thinking

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Message 42/59                 Date: 19-Dec-00  @  03:42 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

k

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check out those samples anyways and hear what emax sounds like for drums in terms of that rounded punchy 'present' midrange - i played 'em straight out of the emax outs into the pc to 44.1 wav - they are garage & rnb & drum & bass CLASSIC snares custom made!!...

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Message 43/59                 Date: 19-Dec-00  @  11:54 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

r-tek

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wasn`t pulaski selling one nobody?

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Message 44/59                 Date: 19-Dec-00  @  05:59 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

pulaski

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yeah...i'm selling one :-)

300 OBO.

email me at: john@caiweb.com if interested.

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Message 45/59                 Date: 20-Dec-00  @  01:44 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

nobody

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is it the rack?

i can't fit another keyboard  

the rack is two spaces right?

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Message 46/59                 Date: 20-Dec-00  @  11:47 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

r-tek

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3u.

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Message 47/59                 Date: 20-Dec-00  @  02:26 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

pulaski

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it's the KB :-(

which is kind of why i'm selling it. would love to have a rack. i have someone interested though. hopefully pans out...

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Message 48/59                 Date: 15-Jan-01  @  10:00 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

phunkytek

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is the emax II the same as the one sound wise?

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Message 49/59                 Date: 15-Jan-01  @  10:14 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

r-tek

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nope, 16 bit with digi filters.and I was wrong up there - the e4 is the emulator 4, the esi series kinda took over fomr where the emax2 left off.

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Message 50/59                 Date: 16-Jan-01  @  04:06 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

casparproject

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just don't have it as your only
sampler. i owned one for about a
week, the rack. got it for 350, then
sold it for 400.

peaceout,

peter

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Message 51/59                 Date: 16-Jan-01  @  04:38 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

influx

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leave it to R-tek to bring up an old thread

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Message 52/59                 Date: 16-Jan-01  @  11:46 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

r-tek

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Ahhhh, but I didn`t did I?Damn fool, must be all that sun rotting your brain :P

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Message 53/59                 Date: 16-Jan-01  @  06:20 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

influx

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woops.

sun? its been raining for over a week. just cleared up today

must be a lack of drugs rotting my brain

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Message 54/59                 Date: 16-Jan-01  @  09:50 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

r-tek

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more likey old age.Ooohhh poor old you - a *whole week* eh? Try 10.5 months of the year of it, then you`ll see why Brit music sounds like that.

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Message 55/59                 Date: 17-Jan-01  @  06:17 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

influx

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does it really rain that much? jeez.

see...here, when it rains, Im glad because that means it is snowing in the mountains usually. there..its just wet.

shit. no wonder I cant write dark music. its just to nice here. need a gloomy place. lookout seattle

wow..never thought of that...has anyone ever seen/read any sort of study as to WHY certain types of music comes from certain areas? even modern stuff? how come theres no dope jungle in..say..portland? or...how come british hip hop sucks?  how did Florida become the center of the death metal scene in the 80s and 90s? The West coast and funky breaks?

wow!!! new thread time. see ya at the main page

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Message 56/59                 Date: 17-Jan-01  @  08:03 PM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

casparproject

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toronto's pretty dreary this time of year, it's winter 7 months of the year

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Message 57/59                 Date: 18-Jan-01  @  01:56 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

k

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i remember reading a front 242 or whatever they are called interview where they made a kik with 42 layered sounds !!! :P

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Message 58/59                 Date: 18-Jan-01  @  05:17 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

influx

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glad I sparked some interest

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Message 59/59                 Date: 18-Jan-01  @  11:52 AM   -   RE: punchy kick drums

r-tek

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I was ever-so-slightly over exaggerating about the rain - the western half of the isles gets all the rain and we get less than Tel Aviv or Rome believe it or not ..........still get the perpetual grey skies tho   Musics environmental and sometimes cultural methinks. Mebbe I`ll speak some more when I can be arsed ...which isn`t now.

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