Original Message 1/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  03:06 PM   -   Your approach to isolation...Please.

Defector Z

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Okay - so here's the thing...

I've been doing electronic music for over 2 years now. When I listen to a lot of professional and semi professional mixes, each "instrument" is well isolated. Everything seems to have a spot in the mix. The kik drum never seems to overlap with the bass line, competing synth lines are separate and distinct. I have a lot of trouble doing that. I don't know if my approach is wrong, if I'm simply selecting the wrong patches, or I am just not thinking out the box well enough.

A couple of things I have thought of that seem to have worked a little.

1. Filter the kik drum - remove anything under 80hz, and roll off the top so it doesn't go much higher than say 200. I'm still having trouble with the bass line though, as it often overlaps on the kik. Like the bass is from 60hz to 150. That's only if I'm using a sine. Use something else with a larger spectrum, and it starts overlapping the punch of a snare, or the lows on a thick synth.

2. Patch selection - I often pick a patch because it has a big sound. If I have that sine bass line rumbling, and the patch I select is a big fat synth, it overlaps on the highs of a sine, and though the hats and snares. If I roll off the lows on the synth, I lose the fatness of the synth part.

3. Am I hindering myself at all by recording everything live into the computer? Right now, when i record a track, I play the whole thing live and record it into a stereo track into cubase. So I have to do all the mixing on the desk real time. People have said that this is fine to do it this way - Mike Clarke scolded me for using that as an excuse, and I can see where he's coming from - but I wonder what other opinions are.

Okay that's for starters. What do you all think?

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Message 2/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  04:15 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

damballah

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No. 2 may be a problem. You ever see one of those charts of an orchestra and the tonal range covered by each instrument. Maybe select your patches that way, so each one covers a well defined region of the sonic spectrum. If each of your patches is as big and fat as possible, you end up with battling orchestras.

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Message 3/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  05:04 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Shpongled

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Hello Defector Z!

My synth(nova) has 6 parts and I can also adjust treble/bass of the parts. I use two of them to bassline. I roll off some bass frequencies from another part and use that bass sound whenever the bassline notes sounds at the same time with kick drum. Hope you can try it, maybe that helps you.  

Oh... and I wouldn't roll off everything below 80hz and above 200hz from kick. It usually has little 'clik' sound at the beginning which is above 200hz (800hz-1800hz ?). Everything below 80hz... hmm... maybe for drum n' bass but not for trance, house... No No!

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Message 4/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  06:24 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Defector Z

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Thanks guys.

Damballlllllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.................

I see what you're saying about patch selection, and I think I may need to change my approach a little bit. I often have 3 different synths going, and a bass line together at the apex of the song. You know - the culmination of the whole piece. Maybe I will try to get there with more use of percussion, rather than more synth sounds. Hmmmm....ideas. I just have to be very careful about the selection - a hat with a longer duration is going to occupy more space than a short click one....(just thinking out loud here).

Shpongled - I see what you are saying about the kick. Maybe if I adjust the attack of the filter on the kik (the esi4k has this), I can keep that original click. Or, I could layer a short fast attack fast decay kick that only gets hit when there is space for it. That way, the kik will have that click and boom when necessary.

As for rolling off the < 80hz, if my sine bass line is done around 60hz, how can I get the kik drum to boom down there, yet retain it's separation from the bass line? That's the part I struggle with, and why I have chosen to remove alot of the boom from the kick. Maybe for a club mix, I could get away with that, but for listening on my little speakers here at work, it will only sound messy.

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Message 5/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  07:10 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

johnny

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You're probably also choosing patches that sound great in isolation, but sound bad in a mix. Don't do this - choose sounds that fit well with each other. Very often, when you mix like this and solo the bass (for example) it sounds inappropriate on it's own - but bring everything else back in and it sounds magic. Same for the other sounds, notably the bass drum. Make the bass drum and bassline such that when they're overlaid they become greater than the sum of their parts. If you solo a part and it sounds amazing, it usually won't fit in a mix correctly. Patches pre-loaded into synths are there to impress casual auditions in shops (i.e not in a mix) so they're larger than life and generally unsuitable for mixing without certain tweaks.

Remember - when you solo, it should sound so-so. The track I'm doing now has a fantastic, fluid sub-bass rolling under the breaks. But when I solo it, the impression is 'where did the bass go?' See what I'm getting at?

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Message 6/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  07:24 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Defector Z

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I totally see what you're saying Johnny. Makes a hell of alot of sense. And you are right about the demo shop. I guess it's hard to see the big picture like that, though. Often, I find myself wrestling with the XT to try to tame it. MISTAKE! It doesn't want to be tamed. :-) But sometimes I do find myself trying to suck a little of the life out of a patch because it is too big. Nice when it's the only one going, but try mixing it and it gets awfully muddy.

Okay - here are my conclusions.

1. Find better patches

2. Use fewer patches at once

3. Use patches that compliment eachother better.

I think I can work with that. If you guys haven't already, I have a couple of the more recent productions up on my website - The End and Strangle Hold. If you wouldn't mind hogging your network resources to download the tracks to see if my self-assessment is on target? that would be very helpful.

But I can definitely work with this. thanks a ton.

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Message 7/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  10:14 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

k

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defector mate, it sounds like you are mixing not loud enuff and over compensating with eq ??

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Message 8/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  10:24 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

k

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also i should add, that if you work at isolating frequencies the result is bereft of any harmonic interaction between instruments.. iut is THESE sweet spots we are seeking to encourage - when the bass & kik is tuned in a certain way also influenced by the bassline, the booming bass & kik will merge sonically in a certain point to have an effect more than the sum of both in isolation. - like you hit some sorta resonant spot that empathises the groove and feel.

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Message 9/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  11:23 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Defector Z

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What do you mean I'm not "mixing loud enough". I don't understand...

As far as mixing the frequencies, I try very hard to get them to interact with eachother, I often choose two lead synths that have many similar characteristics so they CAN interact with eachother - but I often feel that they are competing with eachother - in a not so good way.

I also have had many people suggest I sort out the low freq's - and I notice as well that it is often muddy down there, and I am not sure what I am doing wrong. Know what I mean?

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Message 10/23                 Date: 04-Oct-00  @  04:43 AM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

gs

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from my (limited) experience...

80hz is too high to roll off the kick you will lose all the oompf, try more like 40. don't remove the high frequencies cause that's the bit (the click) that will cut through the other sounds.

if the lows are muddy try cutting a bit from the kick/bass/other stuff around 200-300hz as that tends to be the mud section.

definately try using different sounds, 1 big sound and a few thinner/less dominating sounds rather than 3 fat monster patches.

don't forget panning, if u have 2 synth leads that have similar characteristics, pan them to different sides.

something like that.

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Message 11/23                 Date: 04-Oct-00  @  06:28 AM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Defector Z

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Okay - if anyone is interested, I remixed an older tune with the new wisdom and I think that I have made some progress. It'll finish uploading in 30 minutes or so and will be available for you perusal. It's a bit long - sorry folks - but that's what I was able to come up with. There is a section in there that needs to be thinned out, and I think the main lead could use a bit more volume, but on the whole, I think the eq'ing is on target. Any thoughts? I don't have a link on the webpage, so you'll have to go the Downloads directory.
http://www.defectorz.com/Downloads

Again - any help would be great.

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Message 12/23                 Date: 04-Oct-00  @  06:50 AM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Def Z

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Fuck - name of the track is Danger4. The original is still up there if anyone's interested.

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Message 13/23                 Date: 05-Oct-00  @  05:10 AM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

H

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Instead of selecting patches try
programming your own.Just a suggestion
not a put down.Also don't try to use a
bunch of sounds at once. In my opinion
most demo music sounds too
busy...................

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Message 14/23                 Date: 06-Oct-00  @  02:05 AM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

k

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you says: - As far as mixing the frequencies, I try very hard to get them to interact with eachother, I often choose two lead synths that have many similar characteristics so they CAN interact with eachother - but I often feel that they are competing with eachother - in a not so good way -

thats what i mean... there is an empathic spot where both sounds together create something totally new.. it wont sound the same as when the two are just playing together... it is hard to explain, but i suggest thinking of the whole sound rather than concentrating on mentally isolating two sounds to work with each other... hard to explain. If you concentrate too much on the 'mental' act of metally thinking about stuff like ranges of frewquencies etc that'll; get in the way cos you are making descisions about where to place parameters based on paper theory...
that has nothing to do with a drum & bassline/riff.... that is paper theory... so i'm saying mess radically with drums & bass disregarding any acoustic theory and just listen out for a spot at which it suddenly all grooves.. as i said, that MAY be with the filter & eq on the bassline or kik/snare etc etc TOTALLY different to that which you imagines, and by eq-ing in that radical way it may even make the bassline saound totally different... notes of the riff may dissapear and/or become just a muffled 'whoomp' or whatever or merge with the ki boom etc... the point is, that sweet spot just sings out and if you think about technical spec's you'll not arrive at it ever.. it's like freestyling with a guitar, when you just noodle thoughtlessly and stop playing the things you are practiced at or 'think out' logically and tell your fingers to do conciously... you arrive at new things that sing out... mixing IS artistic in this respect when you let go... so for example.. everyone eq's hats with a nice crisp hi-hat sound.. but what if in the beat you eq the hat totally flat lower-mid?... it will interact sonically with the bassline TOTALLY differently that if it was a traditional thin hat... that is just one drum.

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Message 15/23                 Date: 06-Oct-00  @  03:31 AM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

damballah

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I think a lot of what you say, k, comes into play in considering sounds as part of a mix and not getting hung up in soloing them a lot. I was mixing a show last night and the house tech knew of me so when he knew everything was patched and working, he cleared out and left me alone. Later on, he comes around and says, 'you got this room sounding great, can I look at the board?' looks at it and says 'that's not how I'd do it, but it sounds great.' And I think that comes from doing the tweeking in the mix context and not saying, 'for a kick drum (etc) you do blahblahblah,' set it that way and never touch it again. However, I think during the sound selection phase you can do some stuff to yourself that's pretty damn hard to sort out in the mix phase no matter what kind of trickery you wanna employ. So try to hear how stuff is going to mix while you're selecting/programming the patches.

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Message 16/23                 Date: 06-Oct-00  @  04:48 AM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Defector Z

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Okay - I see what you're saying. I do find myself getting method with voice selection. I have, however, been messing around alot with eq'ing recently, and found that be an improvement. I do, however, see where damballah is coming from - I have certainly put myself in a situation where no amount of eq can overcome the voice selection. That's where the 45 knobs on my XT come in real handy-like. :-) I did try something new (to me) anyways, which I think is something that I should have been doing all along - I wrote the song, rough mixed it, let it sit for a few days, then came back to it and started from the kik up. I eq'd the kik, mixed the snare in, re-eq'd both, brought the bass in, re-eq'd, and so forth until I got what I thought was a pretty good mix. Didn't sound that way when I MP3'd it and listened at work, but hey - it was a good learning experience.

i have yet to find that sweet spot, though.

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Message 17/23                 Date: 11-Oct-00  @  04:24 AM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

H

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Be a dance producer and live in a redneck town and you'll have all the isolation you need 

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Message 18/23                 Date: 11-Oct-00  @  09:46 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

99devils

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One of the ways I deal with the issues of interaction between voices is to try to work on my patches in the context of the mix as quickly as possible. If I want to add a lead, for example, I'll get the basic patch working in isolation, and then let the loop fly on the RM1X and finish creating the sound right there in the context of the mix. Usually I have to go back to the rest of the sounds and deal with them as well.

I definately recommend that you put the new patches into the context of the track as early as possible in the sound creation stage. If you've created the sound to sit in a specific mix, instead of creating tons of patches beforehand and then picking them out later, you'll save yourself some of this trouble because you created the sounds to sit in your specific mix from the get (the MikeC principal - a sound will never sound 100% right in a context other than what it was designed for  

Another thing to consider is FX. Early on, FX can adversely color the sounds you are working in, and fool you into doing things you might not necessarily want to do. That kind of stuff should (usually) be icing on the cake, and come late in the mix.

-Craig

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Message 19/23                 Date: 11-Oct-00  @  09:51 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

k

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as an experiment, try mixing without any reverb at all... now THAT is interesting. try it.

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Message 20/23                 Date: 13-Oct-00  @  01:05 AM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Defector Z

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k - actually, I don't use reverb that much. Only after I have most of the writing done, do I add reverb in. My mixes are too muddy to begin with :-)

I understand that context thing, though, and I have been trying to create patches that FIT in the mix, rather than making patches first, and trying to mush them altother.

One thing about the FX thing though. What exactly do you mean? Fx as in reverb or fx as in delay, flange, distortion etc? Cuz if you have a slow decay 1/4 note delay on a synth line and you play an eigth note ever half measure, you are going to get a RADICALLY differnt sound. The point being that sometimes the fx IS the sound - as important to it as the waveform I use. Know what I mean?

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Message 21/23                 Date: 13-Oct-00  @  09:25 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

99devils

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Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at. In the case where the effect is an integral part of the sound, you'll need it in there, but things like reverb, leave it off until a more final stage of the mix.

-Craig

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Message 22/23                 Date: 13-Oct-00  @  09:42 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Defector Z

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For most of my tracks, I hardly have ANY reverb on. When there's vox, then there's a lot of reverb - gotta cover up for the bad voice, yknowwatahmsayin'?

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Message 23/23                 Date: 13-Oct-00  @  11:41 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

damballah

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ahherdat!

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