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Subject: That Mysterious Professional Sound

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Original Message 1/43 Date: 22-Aug-00 @ 07:00 PM - That Mysterious Professional Sound

azazello

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I am experimenting with making some drum & bass. I made some good standard loops, have good sounds, and I think, "Hey, this is pretty good." Then I listen to some tunes, such as anything by Ed Rush & Optical, DJ Trace, Nico, etc., and discover that my music sounds completely unprofessional! What gives it that "professional" sound? I realize that all songs are pretty unique, but they all have a polished sound in common. Is there anything specific I should be doing in the final mixdown or mastering phase? Any and all tips will be helpful.
Thanks!
Azazello

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Message 2/43 Date: 23-Aug-00 @ 02:19 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

Secluded

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My sound became more professional sounding by using compressor and enhancer/exiter in the final mixdown.
I'm not really into drum & bass.

/Secluded

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Message 3/43 Date: 24-Aug-00 @ 04:13 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

Cyclop

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i'll give you one very good advice.
DO NOT WORRY ABOUT YOUR SOUND.
it will consume you in the end, it will stop you from making tunes, just because you want THAT sound.
either invest in highend machines like a TC finalizer, Drawmer tube compressors,a lexicon reverb, and a eventide harmonizer as well as an aural exiter and prof cd mastering software/
hardware or forget about it.(and i am talking mega bucks here;i am not sure where u live but to put it in euro's:around 6000/8000 will get you somewhere.)
maybe i am exagurating slightly, but to really get THAT sound it is what you need.just make your tunes sound as good as you can, cos when u get signed the record company will master it for you. they have alkl the stuff that you need.
man it stops so much creativity, searching and trying and remixing and looking for that sound...
this is good advice.my friend has a finalizer from the company he works for,
and just put a rough mix trough that machine already makes you desperate for wanting one yourself.
let your creative juices flow, instead of getting frustrated.
but it must be said; a few cheaper
solutions: a compressor, a gate, a dbx denoiser, a bbe sub/high enhancer and a good equalizer will satisfy you good enough.but it is not THAT sound.ask any engineer.

driftkicker.

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Message 4/43 Date: 24-Aug-00 @ 08:48 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

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yep good point i think, if you you worry about not having that sound you never get anything done. there's numerous threads on this i think, try searching. work on your mixing.

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Message 5/43 Date: 25-Aug-00 @ 02:32 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

ville

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whoa! that *IS* a good point. I've been worrying past months about that sound and spent... 1500 euros. But haven't finished one single track.
But i would be still worrying and wondering how much better i would be if i bought this and that... but now i think i need EQ and compressor.................................... shit

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Message 6/43 Date: 25-Aug-00 @ 01:19 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

formant

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the elusive "sound"

if you want it on the cheap, use soundforge multiband compression and then run it through the waves L1 maximizer.

the multiband compression is what "tightens" up the whole thing and polishes it.

the limiter (L1) makes it as loud as possible, use it sparingly or it will make your stuff sound rubbish (as they say in the UK)

i personally feel that mastering is something i want to know how to do because afterall, i am making the track and i want to know how it sounds from beginning to end.

i have sent stuff off and had it mastered and it was "ok" but nothing special.

i am interested in the creative uses of mastering for enhancing the style and things i like about my music so that is why i am learning to master.

but to cyclop's point i haven't made much music in the past year since i started playing with mastering!

but i have a desire to know how to do it all so i will continue the long slow process.

my next twist is to buy some expensive outboard gear (not much more expensive than plug ins thought) so i don't have to screw with the computer for mastering.

if you do decide to play with mastering make sure you record off your original track unmastered because if you do get signed they probably won't want your master unless you have it dead on or they are too cheap to have it mastered professionally.

so if you want to learn mastering, do it because it can only add to your knowledge and abilities. just keep in mind that it will take away from your music time.

good luck

jamey

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Message 7/43 Date: 25-Aug-00 @ 03:39 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

johnny

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I do my own mastering and, to be frank, it's comparable to many pro releases. The two most important tools (apart from your ears and knowing your monitoring setup) are a multiband compressor/limiter and a parametric EQ. The compressor brings the track together, tightens it up and adds life. The limiter makes it as loud as possible without clipping. TC's Finalizer Express is excellent for this - it has 25 preset algorithms that range from very subtle to extremely heavy. You don't have to adjust each parameter by hand, which saves hours of time. It also adds make-up gain to each compressor band automatically, and there are various extras that finish off the machine nicely. It's hardly mega-bucks, no more than a decent synth or sampler. And everyone's got one or more of them, haven't they?

And parametric EQ is essential for mastering, really. I use the four band EQ on the stereo buss of my 01V which works well, the graphic curve display makes it easy to set up. The three main fixes I use are:

1) Roll of everything below 60Hz unless you've got a 5-grand monitoring system and a good room. Use a HPF for this, tune it around 60Hz (� 5Hz) according to the material. This can make a huge difference in clarity. Lots of muddy, undefined bass can occur if your speakers don't go down that far and/or your room is playing tricks on you, so cutting it all out is the best way to go.

2) Cut the mids - a broad bell curve (Q of about 1) on the mid range with a 3dB cut does wonders for many mixes. Everything becomes more open.

3) High end shelving boost of 2-3dB. Adds air and a touch of sparkle. An exciter can usually give better results here, unless you've got a ten-grand mastering EQ that is.

Another parametric band can be used to EQ out problem frequencies, usually around the low-mid area where you can get a 'thunk' that stands out. Use a sharp Q setting with several dB of cut and tune it until you hit the spot. Then ease up on the cut - you should rarely go over 3 dB either way.

Try some of those techniques on an old track. You should really separate the mastering process from everything else - get the mix down on CD or DAT first, make sure you're satisfied with the musical side of things before you start mastering, otherwise it gets confusing and muddled.

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Message 8/43 Date: 25-Aug-00 @ 07:37 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

formant

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hey johnny,

did you see the new focusrite mixmaster? its pretty sweet looking... 3 band multi compressor, eq, limiter etc all analogue and it only costs like $1100us

i am thinking about getting one from santa this year and running my o1v into it :-)

www.focusrite.com

later

jamey

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Message 9/43 Date: 26-Aug-00 @ 05:17 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

johnny

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Yeah, it looks like a great unit - plus you can fit a digital output so you can go straight to CD.

I'd say go for it - mastering is a great skill to have, and very satisfying too. Plus you can do other people's tracks as a favour, or for a small fee...

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Message 10/43 Date: 26-Aug-00 @ 01:15 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

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anyone tried or know about the behringer mastering stuff, y'know, like their own 'finaliser' type product ?...

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Message 11/43 Date: 26-Aug-00 @ 04:25 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

formant

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the only mastering products (non software and less than 1500usd) that i know of are the dbx quantum, the finalizer express, and the focusrite mixmaster

i haven't seen behringer here in the states since all of those lawsuits.

jamey

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Message 12/43 Date: 27-Aug-00 @ 04:51 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

johnny

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I've heard of the Behringer mastering boxes, but never actually seen or heard any. There's the Ultramizer (�150) which is a 2-band affair with a few tricks up it's sleeve. Not very intuitive from what I've heard, capable of beefing up a track nicely but rather heavy handed. And there's no digital i/o possible. There's the Ultradyne (�350) which uses 6 bands of compression - sounds a bit over the top to me, 3 is plenty. It too has lots of features, is a lot more programmable but is in the same box as their Ultracurve - big display but all buttons, not even a data wheel. Digital i/o is an option on this I think, strange as it's an all-digital box - not like the Focusrite.

Sound is subjective, but I'd rather stick with TC's algorithms. They have a history in mastering (M5000's multiband programs are used in many mastering suites) and the technology has trickled down into the Finalizer series. Same with Focusrite - their Blue series is used in lots of mastering facilities.

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Message 13/43 Date: 30-Aug-00 @ 05:57 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

ville

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i have an Vitalizer Jack which is cheapest version of SPL's product lline and it does decent job. I see it as a sort of "lazy-producer's-EQ" 'cos same could be done propably with parametric EQ... it does stil add something "magical" to mix but not as much as i expected. (Hell... I expected it do commercial sounding stuff with a flick of swtich)

Anyone used Ultrafex? How is it? I considered it but ended up buying vitalizer...

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Message 14/43 Date: 01-Sep-00 @ 08:35 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

Jasper

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I'm getting good results with the aphex 104. Definately gives mixes that glossy finish, even shit mess around stuff sounds like it's meant to be that way.

Using a compressor on the bass sounds alone makes mixing the whole track that mutch easier, mainly I can get the kick to sit over a really bassy line and not lose it's definition.

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Message 15/43 Date: 01-Sep-00 @ 08:45 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

chris

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Any tips on what typical settings to use on a software multi-band compressor?

There are no pre-sets on the one I'm using...

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Message 16/43 Date: 02-Sep-00 @ 05:31 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

johnny

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Chris-

How many bands is it? Can you adjust the crossover frequencies? What other settings can you adjust? What ranges do they have?? Tell me more and I can help...

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Message 17/43 Date: 02-Sep-00 @ 06:51 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

formant

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i can send you my "generic" preset that i use as a starting point in soundforge if that is what you are using.

otherwise i will try to remember to go in and write down what all the settings are.

jamey

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Message 18/43 Date: 02-Sep-00 @ 08:05 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

chris

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It's the Sonic Foundry multi-band dynamics (under Sound Forge)...

It's 4 band, and I think each band has it's own frequency parameters - which means it should cross-over.

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Message 19/43 Date: 02-Sep-00 @ 08:42 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

johnny

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Adjusting the crossovers visually should be OK. For starters try a 2:1 ratio on all bands, threshold of -11dB on all bands, 20ms attack on the top 2 bands and 30ms on the bottom 2. Release times should get longer as the frequencies get lower, so try 0.3s for the top, 0.45s for top-middle, 0.6s for bottom-middle, and 0.7s for the bottom band. To make the compression more subtle, ease up on the ratio, lengthen the attack and release times and raise the threshold a touch. To make it more aggressive, increase the ratio (no more than 6:1), lower the threshold, and shorten the attack and release times. If the compressor doesn't add make-up again automatically, as a general rule it should roughly correspond to the threshold setting.

Those are the basics, but try your own settings to tailor it to your own material.

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Message 20/43 Date: 04-Sep-00 @ 04:50 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

formant

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you know johnny the mastering police are gonna come take us away for discussing this in the open like this...

the black art is being exposed! :-)

chris, did johnny sort you out or you still want me to email the preset?

jamey

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Message 21/43 Date: 04-Sep-00 @ 05:53 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

johnny

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Oh and Chris you'll need plenty of 'magic dust' to sprinkle on your tracks to make them sound pro. You can only get this in a top mastering facility so give up now there's no hope :-)

(serious head on now).........

But in all seriousness, mastering seems to be the last facet of recording that's still perceived as being 'best left to the pros only'. Over the years advances in technology have brought many processes to the masses (synths, samplers, mixers, FX, recorders) that were once deemed 'pro only' and the skill level of those using them has increased accordingly, to the extent that there are many more competent home-studio based engineers/recording artists than there ever were. I think it's started to happen with mastering now - the technology is there to be used, but as always the skill of the person operating it has a large say in how 'pro' the results are, no different to using synths, samplers, mixers and such. Given the tools anyone can do it, but like anything else only few can do it really well. It's also something you can mess with when the compositional juices are running dry - leave a stockpile of old mixes to polish when you feel like a change. That's the best way to learn how to do it, trial and error - see what parameters do what.

Home mastering, the next big thing.

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Message 22/43 Date: 05-Sep-00 @ 02:22 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

chris

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Ta for the advice Johnny.

Formant - yeah, I'd appreciate your presets: chris@purusha.demon.co.uk

It'll be nice to have a starting point.

I'll give all this a try after the weekend, since I've got a gig coming up on Friday.

Cheers!

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Message 23/43 Date: 05-Sep-00 @ 05:06 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

formant

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its on the way via email... enjoy!

jamey

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Message 24/43 Date: 05-Sep-00 @ 09:58 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

Defector Z

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Shit. That's all I can say. Shit.

Where do I get one of them new-fangled multi-band do-hickeys for VST? Hmm? On the cheap - if not free. Heh-heh.

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Message 25/43 Date: 06-Sep-00 @ 03:30 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

chris

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Thanks for the file Jamey...

A few more questions though (hopefully of interest to others too)...

I guess that before the multi-band compression is used, the audio track should be normalised by peak? Otherwise the compression mechanism might not hit suitable threshholds...

Would you suggest re-normalising after the compression too?

Any advantages / disadvantages to doing this?

What advantage is there in using a limter at the end of the process (as suggested by Johnny)? Is there something special about the Waves L1?

Any other processes people can recommend?

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Message 26/43 Date: 06-Sep-00 @ 01:44 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

johnny

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Yes, limiters should go after the compressors, because a limiter is just a compressor with a high ratio (from 10:1 up to infinity:1) used to bring down peaks that would cause clipping. If you limited the material before compression, you'd be severly affecting the dynamics before letting the compressor do it's stuff. And then applying compression would completely undo the work of the limiter, which is meant to keep levels below a certain limit, 0dBFS in this case.

With fast enough attack/release times you can limit by several dB without any side effects, resulting in a much louder track.

Normalizing should be done before compression for the reason you mention, in any situation gain optimization is always best done as early as possible in the processing chain. If the compressor and limiter is set up correctly, you shouldn't need to apply normalization after compression/limiting because the track will be regularly peaking at 0dB, with no headroom left to be exploited.

Hope that makes some sort of sense...

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Message 27/43 Date: 06-Sep-00 @ 08:17 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

phunkytek

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you shouldn't have to normalize your master at all. it takes away the headroom needed for eq and multiband. The pro's are using machines with internal processing rates up to 96bit, so when eq and compresion are done on a 24bit file, changes are not truncated. Most DAW's are processing files at 32bits, sufficiant, bu the quaility is less than what the pro masterhouses have. There is a great article on compression at the Digital Domain web site. It is geared more toward pop and film , but it helps point out the mistakes that are made when amitures try to do mastering. There are a lot of technical factors involed, and the article points out the mistakes that can be avoided when these factors are considered. I posted a link. If you do decide to do mastering, keep an unmastered mix to return to for comparison.

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Message 28/43 Date: 07-Sep-00 @ 02:32 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

MGS

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Get Future Music issue #99. In the "Perfect Setup" section they tell you what gear to get for mastering, and it's pretty cheap:

--------------------------------------

-Behringer Composer (compressor) - 299 pounds
-Behringer Dualfex EX-2200 (sound processor) - 199 pounds
-Behringer Ultrabass PRO EX-1200 (bass booster) - 199 pounds

--------------------------------------

Peace.

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Message 29/43 Date: 07-Sep-00 @ 08:56 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

ville

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I allways wonder where do they get the prices in FM. Who would pay 299 for Composer?!?! you can get it for less than third of that price... anything over 100 pounds would be stupid i think.

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Message 30/43 Date: 07-Sep-00 @ 01:34 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

djdarrenb

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One thing to say PCTOOLS. All those "professional sounding" tunes have been master in the studio by sound engineers using PCTOOLS. Honestly you wont be able to aford that ,unless you send on to record label a&r's if they like it they might sign it and master it to that "professional sound" you crave

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Message 31/43 Date: 12-Sep-00 @ 05:03 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

bobbins

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has anyone got an idea of what the best audio editor + plugins for mastering with are, and whether it is possible to get comparable sound when mastering tottaly in software ? (im skint and cant afford hardware)

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Message 32/43 Date: 12-Sep-00 @ 07:32 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

damballah

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as far as published prices, I think mags generally quote the manufacturer's suggested list price instead of the street price. keeps them out of shit with manufacturers and retailers. many pieces of gear have outrageous markup built into the MSP, though, and have never sold a single unit anywhere close to that.

the ideal setup? all behringer!?! I kinda doubt it.

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Message 33/43 Date: 19-Sep-00 @ 08:07 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

formant

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if you are on pc, grab soundforge + waves plugins or if not just grab wavelab or whatever and waves plugins.

later
jamey

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Message 34/43 Date: 19-Sep-00 @ 04:06 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

dow jones

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Can you achieve good mastering results using a pc with proffessional plugins and one of the "ordinary" soundcards (sb live! etc) or is the sound quality in these cards to bad to monitor the results of the various mastering processes even if the mix that is to be mastered has a perfect sound quality? And one more thing; what is the best way to record a mix through the analog out of my mixer and then store it digitally?

/thanks in advance

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Message 35/43 Date: 05-Oct-00 @ 05:21 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

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I know this is an old thread but since I
own a Finalizer96k and TC works Spark
1.5 software which are the very best for
home mastering.You need high end
monitors not super high end I use fostex
ps3 system and it sounds great but put
it in a small system like a ghetto
blaster w/o much bass and it still
sucks.I'm deciding between Hafler
TRM-8,KRK V8,or HHB monitors has anyone
had any experience w/ these monitors?I
know mastering w/ a sub sucks because a
system w/o a sub sounds
tinny................

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Message 36/43 Date: 05-Oct-00 @ 06:04 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

formant

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H, as long as you check it in multiple systems you should be fine. you can use just about any studio monitors, just keep a/bing stuff you like against the track you are trying to monitor.

most likely the room you are in doesn't have perfect acoustics anyway so just understand how they sounds.

i just upgraded from the alesis monitor ones to the new alesis M1s and they are tons better in the mid range than my monitor ones were. but i still check my mastering on a boom box and in my car to be sure.

hope this helps

jamey

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Message 37/43 Date: 06-Oct-00 @ 04:58 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

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i checked it in my car and it sounded
good,at the big studio through several
different monitors and it sounded good
but I put it in a boom box and bam
complete treble.Ispent so much on high
end gear I forgot to budget for speakers
and ended up w/ these.I'm sorry I went
off on you but I had a really messed up
experience when I was small and I listen
to my mom talk about jesus all the time
while she chain smokes drinks and pops
pills.I'm just tired of seeing all the
static that religion causes and it just
hits me below the
belt....................................

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Message 38/43 Date: 06-Oct-00 @ 05:56 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

damballah

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It's nice to have some crap speakers to check stuff on -- Auratone cubes, little radio shack ones, buy a cheap pair of car speakers and build a plywood box for them -- and an a/b speaker switch. Definately, check your mix numerous places and at different times. Sleeping on it before checking it in the car can be revealing.

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Message 39/43 Date: 06-Oct-00 @ 07:29 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

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What's your take on mixing w/ a
sub??????????

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Message 40/43 Date: 06-Oct-00 @ 01:55 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

formant

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heh heh, my take on subs is i don't really hear them till i get in my jetta.... rockin stock stereo!

anyway, i always mix too bass heavy so i try and overcompensate by cutting a lot of bass... normally to see if i got it right i get in the corner of my room and if you close your eyes it sounds just like a club (well maybe). the bass tends to accumulate in the corners for some reason.

as for mixing with a proper sub monitor, i used the event dealie with the separate mid/tops and then the sub for the lows.

couldn't stand it.

all the bass was coming from below me and the mids and highs from the normal spot. drove me crazy.

i am lucky enough to get to play my stuff in a club when i actually finish a track (doesn't happen that often) and it always matches up with however it sounded in my car. (except the car sounds a bit better :-)

jamey

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Message 41/43 Date: 08-Oct-00 @ 10:38 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

Hank Dank

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How did my mix sound w/ your computer and what speakers were you using. I hope you turned up the treble and left the bass as is.

H

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Message 42/43 Date: 09-Oct-00 @ 01:08 PM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

formant

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sounded like a 22khz mix man... pretty crappy.

put up a 1 min 44.1 and i will re-download it and give you an opinion of how it sounds on my monitors.

jamey

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Message 43/43 Date: 11-Oct-00 @ 04:16 AM - RE: That Mysterious Professional Sound

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Your just mad cause I think Jesus is a guy not a god.It was mono too.I sure got alot of requests for my crappy mix.Besides I got an 88.2khz mix.And my scratch dj and that new yamaha workstation thingy comin w/ some real monitors.Fuck it i think I'll get some westlakes and some ns10s.Doesn't it suck when you can't put someones track in mp3 because you aint got no $450 program to do it.Pirates matey Pirates ARRRRRRR

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