Original Message 1/113                 Date: 20-Jun-99  @  07:15 AM   -   Drug Addicts...

NOTEVEN

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Not too be a freak but has anyone noticed that alot of influential musicians,
were drug addicts. I'm not going to go on the long list of artists that were or
are drug addicts that made some good shit. But i just think its kinda funy.
Thats it.


out...

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Message 2/113                 Date: 20-Jun-99  @  09:40 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

balsamo2

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i can see two reasons. Let's say that
these musicians were highly
"perceptive", that they had a vision.
That they felt things very strongly.
i think it's obvious they had to take
drugs to "flee" the mediocre world.
Other reason, more important : drugs
are supposed to enhance creativity
somehow... Not that you can create
when you're on somtehing, though...
And maybe too there's a huge pressure
on big sellers so they just lower
the pressure by taking drugs...

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Message 3/113                 Date: 20-Jun-99  @  03:51 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Stinky_Velour

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Drugs are bad. Nkay?

All I know about drugs is what I've learned from my daytime gig is as an HIV/AIDS case manager. I've worked with several people whose lives have been completely trashed through addiction.

Mmmm. Crankbugs.
Mmmm. Wound botulism.
Mmmm. HIV & HCV

Shall I go on?

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Message 4/113                 Date: 20-Jun-99  @  05:31 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

balsamo2

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The question is not about advocating
drugs use or not... it's more like
"Why the hell so many creative people
take drugs or took drugs ???" This
goes writers, painters, etc...
And it was the case even a century
ago...

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Message 5/113                 Date: 20-Jun-99  @  08:17 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

rambling madman

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Some even say the consumation of psychedelic plants, mushrooms, cacti, whatever is what made us become self-conscious and enabled us to move beyond the animal-like stage and evolve us into what we are today.

There are numerous drawings of mushrooms on ancient cavewalls...

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Message 6/113                 Date: 20-Jun-99  @  08:52 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

dru

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i dont think it sould be limited to drugs the question is why are artists so self destructive...i think the the hand that creates is also the hand that distroys in fact they are the same process yelding differnt results...

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Message 7/113                 Date: 20-Jun-99  @  11:21 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Jasper

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Just found out this weekend that the guy who broke into my mates flat and nicked all his equipment is the same guy who's been stealing lots of expensive weighing machines from my work.. The same guy that grassed a load of his mates to the filth (they all got busted), the same guy that has just been let off community service (huh? when does this happen?).

The same guy that recently got into smack and is now definately a loser.. Used to be such a nice bloke as well....

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Message 8/113                 Date: 21-Jun-99  @  03:32 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

saberala

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A distinction should be made between drugs and plants. Drugs are synthesized and distilled to make their effect hundreds of time more powerful than you find in nature.

I think artists today are taking less drugs. The 60's and 70's were times of experimentation. They were everywhere, however not everyone inhaled  

Olushola

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Message 9/113                 Date: 21-Jun-99  @  04:47 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

a

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i shared a flat with a drugy for 2 weeks and it was the worst 2 weeks of my life that guy was an absolute dick head i think that alot a record com,s make PR's saying that there stars are drugy's cause it makes them look cool (thats how bad sony realy are)...... R U T S S

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Message 10/113                 Date: 21-Jun-99  @  10:52 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Santa

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No profound wisdom here, I'd just like to say that I've created my best tracks using a minimum of superskunk.
I know about this drug, and it can be quite harmful, but if you (as I) use it, say 2-3 times a month, then it works.
Also, if you smoke too often you become tired, your brain only works at 1/4 of normal speed and you get quite grumpy.
So, I can recommend it, but only if used in a subtle way.

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Message 11/113                 Date: 21-Jun-99  @  11:14 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

TheRite

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>>No profound wisdom here

The only error in this reply..

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Message 12/113                 Date: 21-Jun-99  @  12:25 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

polyecho

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To the original post,

I'd say those guys were a bit of dreamers. They were doing the music they love the most and if you had your dream goal nailed already when you were some 20s or 30s, you probably wanted to find something off world or more spirtitual blah blah blah well.. plus they had too much money on their hands and could afford the drugs.

But hey those artists are rarely working anymore. They were good but usually only the first few work they did early in their careers. They usually sucked (intensely) after that and their late work went down hill for they never did the art they loved with the same heart they used to have anymore.

Those who are still working or actively worked for more than a decade or two are usually those who are clean or eventually clean. That is what I see.

my .02

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Message 13/113                 Date: 21-Jun-99  @  01:25 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

99devils

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For me, I don't think that they are the cause/result of creativity, but they're a symbiot of creativity... Meaning that the same personal inadequacies and tricks of the psyche cause me to be driven to create as well as ingest.

There's a hole in our soul that we fill with dope, and we're feeling fine!

Having said that, I'll be making the pilgrimage to Amsterdam in August... Anyone from Holland?

-C

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Message 14/113                 Date: 21-Jun-99  @  02:32 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

TheRite

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I'm dutch...

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Message 15/113                 Date: 21-Jun-99  @  02:46 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Jasper

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You don't find that many established dance musicians will freely admit to using drugs to enhance the music... If many do... I'll have a bit of a smoke, but I find that I quickly get bored. or I'm just not happy with the sound, when I'm straight or after maybe one beer then things really work for me.

Depends on the music really, could you imagine any Dub or Reggae musicians not smoking dope?

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Message 16/113                 Date: 21-Jun-99  @  02:46 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Jasper

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You don't find that many established dance musicians will freely admit to using drugs to enhance the music... If many do... I'll have a bit of a smoke, but I find that I quickly get bored. or I'm just not happy with the sound, when I'm straight or after maybe one beer then things really work for me.

Depends on the music really, could you imagine any Dub or Reggae musicians not smoking dope?

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Message 17/113                 Date: 21-Jun-99  @  06:23 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

99devils

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I don't tend to use much while actually composing, but many of the patetrns and riffs I come up with to start off songs are conceived in a heightened state of being...

-Craig

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Message 18/113                 Date: 21-Jun-99  @  07:05 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

aural

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any response that begins something like "I once knew a druggy,and..." is pretty much pointless,dontcha think?.

You'd have a pretty hard time convincing me that drugs (including alcohol),music,and religion aren't pretty well tied together.Whoever said that record companies would call someone a drug user just to make them seem cool (and sell more records) is incredibly naive.There so much bullshit about how drugs ARE NOT cool in the world,even right here on this board,that it just wouldn't make good business sense.

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Message 19/113                 Date: 21-Jun-99  @  08:26 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

99devils

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This is a tough subject for several reasons:

1)public misconceptions and generalizations about drugs

2)government propoganda rationalizing the vast sums of money spent trying to keep substances out of countries

3)moral stance type issues are always tough for the public to swallow.

Now, it should be no surprise to anyone how easily people can be manipulated via the media and especially the so-called authorities, which in the States is mostly the US Government, the FBI, and the Christian Right. These people have waged an impressively effective campaign in the media which has resulted in Joe Blow off the street not knowing the differences in addictiveness, intensity, and physiological and psychological effects between something like heroin and something like pot.

If heroin were the only drug on earth (or crack, pick any hard drug you like) then I might be able to deal with public drug policy. Most of the things the "authorities" say will happen if you do drugs actually does happen to heroin users, including ODs, HIV, crime, weight loss, etc. Look at your average pothead and about the only symptoms you'll see are an appetite for junk food, a touch of laziness, and some reversable short term memory loss.

It's also hard to seperate social results of drug use from the economic results of drug use. If smackheads could get extremely cheap heroin and a regular supply of clean needles, I'd be willing to bet drug related crime would drop to zero. You might have may more OD's , though, which brings up my next point.

I like to think that I'm intelligent enough to make my own decisions about what is good and bad for me. I don't need/want my government/church/police department telling me what's good and bad. And I take responsability for the consequences of those decisions. If people would use their heads to make informed decisions, and then accept the consequences of those decisions, the world would be a much better place. What if, you say, people aren't smart enough to make those decisions? Then I say fuck 'em. I'm not trying to sound incompassionate, but maybe I need someone to charter a country where the laws are written in such a manner that intelligent people get to do what they feel is best for themselves.

OK thanks for listening to my political rant.

-Craig

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Message 20/113                 Date: 22-Jun-99  @  12:59 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

k

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agreed Craig.... I've seen the body's zipped up in the bag, and listened to the thump-thumpety-thump of the corpse's head bumping down the stairs as they cart the body out the house while the girlfreind has hysteric's....(fresh ones !! - the neck is still floppy) - and it is always from buying some dogey shite drug's which have been cut with something bad or something that the user is allergic too, and they didn't expect it to be in the brown etc etc, and that happens cos the drug is treated NOT as a medical problem like in Holland where there is hardly any drug related crime, but instead all the hysteria is there and drug addicts are treated as criminals... thus you ergo criminalise the scene, force it into that arena of related crime...

but despite that stupidity... it's still only about 5-10 heroin deaths in the UK per annum compared to 150,000 from booze & ciggies... go figure.... it's simply a case of corporate politics... alcohol & tabacco companies are the worlds biggest drug barons, causing the hugest amounts of death & carnage... but they pay billions in tax annually to keep it that way.... it's a mad world when we spend millions (sometimes billions), to stamp out a 'drug' that causes a handfull of deaths annually, whilst promoting another couple of drugs that are totally decimating our societies with hundreds of thousands of deaths annually, plus all the violence & destroyed lives that go with it.....

really, it's all about corporate/political power... if even dope & ganja is made legal all those 3rd world countries gain massive political & financial power.... anyways it doesn't matter which drug... as long as we all on drugs, we won't be bothered to take action... DOPE THE MASSES WITH DRUGS... SELL THEM STUFF... - THEY CONSUME - THEY DIE ... fin...

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Message 21/113                 Date: 22-Jun-99  @  01:58 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

zwolf the elf

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of course, elves are incredibly lucid and can achieve the greatest states of physiological pleasure without chemical stimulation, being very much in tune with the true nature, which is intensely pleasurable. oh isn't it? why's that? well, you better have some of this, then. it will make everything seem better  

errm.. pretending that a musician is a drug addict makes those on drugs more likely to relate to them and receptive to their message, which may often require several albums and years to relate effectively..

drugs and musicians. drugs can be a way of perpetuating a state of mind necessary for telling a story, because it may take many years to develop effective story telling skills. the paranoia of illegal activity.. the fear and destructive life patterns that led to a chain of events which must be taught. by numbing the soul and keeping the body in a closed space to keep it fresh.

twelve the eleven.

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Message 22/113                 Date: 22-Jun-99  @  02:07 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

k

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yes Zwolf...Rumi him say: "drugs is the un-enlightened mans way to a 'mystical' experience"

ah -so

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Message 23/113                 Date: 22-Jun-99  @  03:59 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

saberala

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I think mind-altering herbs (not synthesized substances) are not bad at all. The problem is that people use them to pleasure seek instead of as medicine for the psychic. There are plants to heal and build the body and their plants to heal and build the pyschic.
We just have to learn to use them correctly and for the right reason.

We are such a plesure oriented society, it's natural that drug use would be high. After one has exhausted the boundaries of pleasure the only thing left as a sensation is pain.

Olushola

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Message 24/113                 Date: 22-Jun-99  @  05:35 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

influx

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<>

Well said, man! Even tho this is a tech chat, its cool to see such intellectual discussions!
I myself am a firm believer that there are certain, NATURALLY OCURRING, substances that can be quite conducive to forward (mental) movement. The majority of my years in school, from Junior high on, were spent investigating psychedelic drugs and the cultural movement that went with their "discovery" (even tho these substances have been around since day one probably) and have realized gradually that the majority of these substances are only harmful when used irresponsibly, in a purely hedonistic manner. Substances such as heroin and cocaine are so far-removed from any sort of natural origin that they have no real beneficial qualities whatsoever. other substances, like psylocibin and mescaline...morning glory, broom, jimson weed..all those that occur naturally seem to blow things wide open, and give one a view of the world that is quite different from the humdrum "real" world.

OK..Im rambling too, but my point is...music itself is a form of this type of "escape"...a well composed piece of music is, for both artist and listener, a means of getting beyond the humdrum world in which we exist. Drugs, mainly psychoactive ones (being drunk isnt usually too profound) accelerate this escape, and sometimes facilitate the transition from ordinary to extaordinary.
I think a lot of the musicians of the past (can you say Rolling Stones) were purely hedonistic in their drug use, and simply wanted to get FUCKED UP, but there have surely been countless others whose drug use allowed/helped/made them far more able to let out the anger/pain/humor/beauty inside...

Craig-props man...well said! and Kilo...we've been fighting that fight over here for FAR TOO FUCKING LONG..with all the Lemmings giving the DEA props for a job well done, and then shuffling to the store for a carton of smokes and a fifth of Beam...fucking idiots have no idea that they are being murdered slowly but surely!!!

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Message 25/113                 Date: 22-Jun-99  @  08:57 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Cheddar

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Then of course there is the purpose.

Thinking last night that use makes you slow I woke to imagine that use and distance traveled were a lesson in relativity. I mean enjoy the state and those surrounding you with their state and the slowness. Topologically it only gets you along the road to B and you probably never arrive - again, except with another re-working of the trip.

Hey how come I keep being amazed by the same things again and again?
I don't complain to find wonder most everytime is good for me and it is joyous to recognise the same themes in other systems but if lifting the back foot moves the body forward and everyone tells me I have to move the body forward then will I end up walking around it in circles.

And then contemplation circles back turned to a world pulling spagetti from the plate.
We are stuck in our grooves.
We behave for the most significant viewer
Convincing to find reactions to satisfy a level or apathy and greed

I thought to try to know myself and then I would know everyone but I fear the sharks with dead eyes frighted me to look at.

eyes open in the womb

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Message 26/113                 Date: 22-Jun-99  @  09:09 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

TheRite

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>>in Holland where there is hardly any drug related crime

Erm...sorry to break the myth....

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Message 27/113                 Date: 22-Jun-99  @  10:28 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Henk

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Yup, no drug related crime here
in Groningen, The Netherlands

Then why the hell they keep stealing
my bike at least twice a year??.

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Message 28/113                 Date: 22-Jun-99  @  10:36 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Kelaperse

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Maybe they should start to give the people free bikes too?

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Message 29/113                 Date: 22-Jun-99  @  12:24 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Jasper

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Naa, they'd just sell the free bikes to get better models or something.. The government would just end up inadvertently financing the black market in mountain bikes.

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Message 30/113                 Date: 29-Jun-99  @  02:52 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

r.welsh

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mountain bikes in holland? Hmmm

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Message 31/113                 Date: 29-Jun-99  @  12:39 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

k

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crime compared to the UK???... you gotta be kidding me... it's zilch mate - you wouldnt fuckin beleive what it's like here,...did you know we have more people in jail than ANY other european country - and no, it's not cos 'Phoney-Tony' Blair passed a law to lock up anyone who doesnt toe his party line (although he might as well do) - i think you'd be totally fucking shocked if you saw the state of some of the places people live in here in the Uk - did you know 2/3rds of British people live BELOW the official UN poverty line??? - mate... serious we have places here in the uk even the fuckin police cannot go into - it's not all buckingham palace & stratford-on-avon you know....

perhaps they steal your bike cos you aint got a lock for it?? - still, having said that i've had 4 bikes pinched (all good new expensive ones), 3 cars, one complete studio (yup the whole fucking contents!!), half my record collection, one motorbike,(my beloved Kwak 400 S3 triple ..."sniff-blubber", god i miss that bike!!...) my TR606 with seperate output mod at a gig, my beyer mic at a gig, etc etc etc.... mate - it's so bad here a mate of mine was standing outside his house a few months back talking to his next-door neighbour at his front garden gate with his door open and this guy walked past him, up his path, into his house, and came out with his fuckin TV set !!!!!.... needless to say he was told to 'walk-off' in no uncertain terms, 8 weeks or so before that the local Italian squat-junkies cleaned him out...

my cousin came over after 6 years living in NY trouble-free and was mugged the first night in London,... i've been assaulted at least 30-40 times 50% all in broad daylight with everything from fists & bike-helmets, to stanley knives & hammers etc... i've even had cars driven at me to run me down, and even was assaulted in broad daylight in a famous central London square by an off-duty policeman for fucks sake !!!!.... i mean the guy lammed me for over 3 fucking minutes !! - - i've even had a guy chasing me round the circular road with a revolver just cos i hooted at him when he pulled out causing me to nearly crash !! - and i'm a guy who AVOIDS trouble !!!!.... you want to see the scrapes some of my more fiesty mates get into !!!... i mean even fucking Glastonbury is like a holiday camp for tea-leafs, with about 300 tent thefts reported after the first day this year (and that is just the reported thefts !! - no-ones going to report a half-oz being pinched are they now !!) & the shooting 2 years ago (one of my mates wont go there since as he was about 30 yards away when the lead started flying and it freaked him out) - mate beleive me - this country.... !!!

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Message 32/113                 Date: 29-Jun-99  @  08:31 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

p.

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fun rant. first, a prominent u.s. university did a study some years back on experimental drug use and psychological stability. it found that those students who had experimented with drug use were on average more well adjusted than those who had not. now the reasons for this are up for debate, but most believe that well-adjusted people are more capable and open to experimentation in general.

as for drug policy, i'm with craig. the u.s. policy changed drastically in the 80's when the then director of drug policy (name eludes me) changed the rhetoric on drug use from a health debate to a criminal debate. since then, drug convictions have skyrocketed and minorities in this country have had to take the brunt of the offensive. meanwhile, tobacco and alcohol, which claim more lives than all other drugs combined, get off scott free. not to mention, many studies claim tobacco is more addictive than heroin.

natural vs. processed drugs. please don't take offense when i say, imho, it doesn't make a bit of difference (except in one's preference). look, a chemical is a chemical is a chemical. we are bio-chemical entities and the body cares little (except in respect to the psychologically induced placebo effect) where something comes from, but rather what is it made of and how it reacts with our normal functions. psyllisibin (sp?), regardless of it's origin in a mushroom, screws with your brains normal biochemical functioning, just as ecstasy does (albeit in different ways, hence the different sensations). and be honest, the herb of today is not the herb of yesteryear. on average (at least here in the states) the drug content in marijuana is higher than 20 years ago. why? careful cultivation and breeding, just like in any agricultural venture, leads to better product (but is it truly natural, as marijuana didn't naturally occur this strong). true, you're chances of o.d. from smoking too many bowls is a hell of a lot less than from snorting too many lines, but whether a drug is "natural" or not isn't the issue, rather the level of content with respect to how much the body can handle.

finally, on the artist and drug use. i heard a fairly well known clinical psychiatrist here in the states speak on artists and drug abuse. his assessment is that the personality types of many musicians (apparently he has more than a few stars as clients) are that of people who find danger and the extreme pleasurable, much as "extreme" sports athletes do. on top of that, many artists, addressing psychological issues within themselves and living within the pressured confines of the "scene", find drugs more readily accessible to deal with problems than the average joe. in this way, its easier for many stars (he used jimi hendrix as an example) to go from experimenter to addict. for my part, i would say the drugs are less a reason than a symptom of the pain and/or general psychological complexities most artists funnel into their art. thus, i see drug use only as a byproduct of outlook that can be purely experimental (used as a means for exploration) or dangerous (eg. addiction), but ultimately irrelevant to the success or failure of the artist.

sorry about the thesis paper. -p.

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Message 33/113                 Date: 29-Jun-99  @  09:18 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

99devils

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If we only had more clear-headed people like you guys running for office... Look, as far as I'm concerned, you only get one life, one chance to experience whatever it is you want to experience. I think it's ludicrous of any government to limit my (or anyone else's) ability to live life to the fullest, whatever their definition of that may be.

Especially when their reasons for such policies are based on lies, duplicity, and bullshit, and they've used my tax money to spread their rot and enforce their lame policies... As far as I'm concerned the US government is responsable for every single drug-crime related murder comitted in this country, the same as the government was responsable for all of the booze-related crime during US Prohibition in the 30s.

-Craig

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Message 34/113                 Date: 30-Jun-99  @  02:34 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

k

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good points chaps, and i agree about a chem is a chem is a chem... which is of course from a chemistry point of view absolutely correct - a chemical molecule is the active ingredient wether naturally ocuring or synthesised - and P yer right about destructive people- and following the Shit-styms logic, soon they will have to ban say free rock climbing cos people get killed going for a high doing it...

actually just for reference the story on dope/weed goes like this.

Pre-1930's weed was a BIG-time commercial crop... 'hemp' - it was used for poor peoples' alternative to cotton for clothing, and of course rope amongst other things, (did you know for example the actual original document: 'The Declaration of Independance' was written on hemp-paper !!!??.. fact.!!)..... then Dupont invented & patented NYLON.... hmmm.... only one market competitor---- hemp...

so it turns out, the owner of Dupont's legal firm has a brother who is a Senator - he goes to the senate and presents a bill calling Hemp the "single most social-evil facing the country" or word very close to that effect and introduces a bill to illegalise hemp... and hey fuckin presto... Hemp is made illegal,,,, and the rest is history... and Dupont made shitloads of money as there was no competition from hemp any more......

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Message 35/113                 Date: 30-Jun-99  @  02:50 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

damaged69

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Drugs.....hmmmm......I never really thought too much about em until someone very close to me devoloped a terrible speed addiction.....
In terms of so many talented musician's using drugs though, I think it becomes a horrible crutch. To name a couple of my personal favorite artists that have now gone "sober" and might I add, gone completely down hill musically: Ministry, Hole, Janes Addiction, and Alice in Chains. All these band's made wonderful music when they were completely fucked up on drugs....now that they have gone sober, so has there creativity.
My advise is this: If you need to use to create, that's your deal, just remember, be prepared to die from a drug overdose and die for your art, because if you sober up and try and move on creatively, your music is gonna suck anyway.
bye!

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Message 36/113                 Date: 30-Jun-99  @  05:28 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Sedusa

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You know, maybe the reason bands suck after they kick (Not everybody in the bands you listed are sober tho by any means) is not that drugs are their source of inspiration... Rather, the reason that they were great and they reason they took drugs were very closely related - and the opposite approach is what killed their music, AND made 'em stop taking drugs - IE, playing it safe. You don't take chances with your music, you stagnate creatively..... Same goes for your life, experientially.... However, I'm not saying that no one should quit using drugs..... There is a line where "Not playing it safe" becomes "Toying with death".... Living life to the fullest is what it's all about.... Exploring different states of being, developing interpersonal relationships, seeing and doing all those things that you wanna pack into your short time on earth, because they make you happy.... But when you chase after just one of those things, you cut yourself off from the rest of life's experiences, and you stop living your life, much less to it's fullest extent. Now, I see nothing wrong with drugs... I mean, truthfully, where would dance music really be today if the advent of MDMA hadn't occured?... But when you pursue a high to the exclusion of everything else is when you need to reevaluate your life and turn that shit around. And, though it may be a cynical way to look at it, I think that the strong ones who survive it and pull out are the ones fit to go on. It's survival of the fittest, and those who are too weak to hack it are picked off one by one, because that's real life. Also, if one really has nothing to live for, and truly wants to die, I see no reason to not take that road to it's ultimate and logical end, another issue in which I think every individual should (And of course does, I just mean should have unopposed access) have free choice in. And if drugs are their preferred vehicle to that destination, it's really as good as any. Even so, I don't think that means that you shouldn't try to help your friends and those you love when they're going through addiction. After all, we're all fallible, make mistakes, and we do all need help sometimes, as much as we might like to think that we don't.

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Message 37/113                 Date: 30-Jun-99  @  10:31 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Ison

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Its all opinionated bullshit if you ask me.
Drugs are one of the last bastions of glory for those who like to get off on prejudice and self righteous indignation.
I did not spend an eternity evolving into what i am now to have some old wanker tell me what is best for me.
So if you dont like it simply fuck off an stick your oar in somewhere else as we are sick of your pompous ignorance.
So there.

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Message 38/113                 Date: 30-Jun-99  @  11:00 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

spawn

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Ison@Golem98.Demon.Co.UK :
It is all opinionated BS, just like your post is opinionated BS. What old wanker is trying to tell you what is best for you? Self righteous indignation? Really. Prejudice? Really. Amazing how all these 'drug addicts' sound just like 'normal' people, eh? And 'fuck off'(?) I do it it as much as possible, that is when I've the time and I'm not sticking some shit in my arm, down my throat, or up my nose. Stick my oar somewhere else? 'We'are sick of your pompous ignorance? Who's 'we'? It seems you are in the minority here, as this 'bastion' seems to be mostly pro choice as far as drugs are concerned. You know you sound a bit like a zealot yourself.

Speaking for myself (as I light up a fatty), I don't see a lot of prejudice among drug users, sure some of them are distrustful of those who 'don't', but far more seem willing to live and let live. You might try it yourself sometime. Oops! there I (read: old wanker) go telling someone what is best for them....

Peace All

Mindspawn

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Message 39/113                 Date: 01-Jul-99  @  01:41 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

p.

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just a side note:
have any of you seen reefer madness. fucking great. they've made a play out of it here in l.a.
-p.

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Message 40/113                 Date: 01-Jul-99  @  02:02 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

The Ultimate Rasta

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ere's a reefer do you wan't some policemam... ere's a reefer do you want some lass...? ere's a reefer do you want some ISON? or would you prefer it if i stuck it up your ass..

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Message 41/113                 Date: 01-Jul-99  @  02:39 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

GanjaLover

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Smoke Ganja and you'll find the response !

GAE

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Message 42/113                 Date: 01-Jul-99  @  04:21 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Ison

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Tell you what Ultimate Rasta you stick it in your ass,light it and i will attempt to use your intestines as a water pipe and suck the smoke out of your scrawny neck.

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Message 43/113                 Date: 01-Jul-99  @  05:02 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

nice one

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Why do we do things
Is it action or reaction

why do we make strong responses
is it being heard or being afeard

do we feel at home with the homophobe
or do we dodge his domain

"70 million people there
where are they hiding"

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Message 44/113                 Date: 02-Jul-99  @  05:07 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

nonetoseen

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Here is a question, if drugs were legal (which i believe that marijuana is the only drug to be legalized) would there as much as there is. My answer to that is yes. When one drug become legal, then ppl will fight saying that if marijuana is legal, then this drug should be legal, so on, and so on. Basically the way drugh use in america is going that the goverment has no choice but to let it be illegal, however i do believe that marijuana is a great substance for ppl who are dying, AIDS, cancer...etc. But i say too much of one thing is always bad. Moderation is the key to the whole thing. I believe Music stars start drugs in moderation which i believe what helps with the creativity of music, but when they become famous they think they can do anything and start doing more drugs, thinking its going to help them its really hurting them. and when they get so fucked up that they cant think no more, they decide to kick the habit, well that is when their music sucks. not b/c they quit the habit, but b/c they did so much drugs in excess that their creaivity is gone.

Peace

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Message 45/113                 Date: 02-Jul-99  @  06:18 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

99devils

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Listen, speaking for the USA at least, the framers of our constitution intended to create a country where people could do what they pleased with their lives. Who the fuck is the gov't or anyone else to tell me what to do? All I can say is that drug-related crime WILL drop if legalization occurs, because the economic factors which drive it will be removed. What happens to people after legalization is up to the individual, and that's the way it should be. I believe every person should have the right to do what they want with their own life, regardless of the consequences. It's not the government's job to protect stupid people from themselves. Not to sound cold or anything, but if we let all the stupid people kill themselves off, the world would be a better place.

-Craig

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Message 46/113                 Date: 02-Jul-99  @  07:25 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

p.

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some tidbits on the u.s.:

fact: crime increase dramatically during the 80's with the introduction of crack into the ghettos and general crackdown on drug sales (especially coke). why? it's cheap and everyone wants in on the profits. consequently, there's volleying for the market. with the crackdown, minorities are disprotionately affected. Roughly 17% of the drug users in the u.s. are people of color and yet they make up roughly 2/3 of those convicted for drug offenses. A majority of those convicted come from low income families. If we're concerned about drug USE in this country (or any country for that matter), why do we only go after the sellers. craig is right. as long as there is a demand, supply will develop. point is, our current policy unfairly affects a specific sector of our society while failing to address its cause.

that said, as a matter of policy, the residual costs (healthcare and quality of life) of large scale, free market drug legalization, imho, would prove problematic as well. i would propose the following: 1. reclassification of illicit drugs based primarily on potential for addiction and health effects with regular and/or sporadic use (this, of course, would entail an increase in size and breadth of the studies done on various substances to date) 2. outright legalization of those substances on par (as far as the above criteria are concerned) with alcohol (marijuana, etc.). 3. government controlled sales of the more "dangerous" substances, just like pharmacies now control medication, thus ensuring quality (less overdose), a resource for addicts trying to kick the habit and honest statistics on use. 4. profits from sales funneled into research, honest education (not some egg being fried in a griddle, "this is your brain on drugs" advert), and rehabilitation for addicts. and before anyone complains about a black market developing and circumventing the "fix" (pun intended), i have little doubt that a wide spread national program would be able to produce and sell at a much lower rate than the current ones (economies of scale).

This way, you allow for the free use of "lighter" drugs, experimentation with others, curtail crime related to the current illegal market, and provide resources for addicts in the process of quitting, all self funded by it's own sales. but hey, i'm not absolute dictator of the world, so who am i to start barking our orders.
-p.

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Message 47/113                 Date: 02-Jul-99  @  08:39 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Rez

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Hey P, why do you say they cracked down on coke? I would have to say that Mr. Regan (and his deluded wisdom) was trying to stop all "illicit" drugs from being produced\imported\grown in this country. Not just coke. Everything. Were you on the task force or something? Is there DEA tatooed on your ass or are you trying to start this off into a racial shit fling? Let's not shall we...

What was the result? Cocaine DROPPED in price (something in the order of 65% [8-Ball for $300 instead of $750]) and pot ROSE in price (something like 140% [$15 for an 8th to $30-$35 now]). Does that make sense? No I didn't think so. Did his war on drugs work? No. It has caused more problems than were forseen, it has caused BILLIONS to be wasted putting a few of the larger suppliers behind bars and hundreds of others either in prision for minor possessions or on parole which doesn't help them get through life with a record. To top things off, there were several who were on the task forces that just put the contraband in their trunk and went home for a party. Shit, doesn't seem like it worked...

I would have to agree with Craig in saying (summary) "Legalize the damn drugs. In a couple of years, the idiots (ie: those who cannot restrain themselves) will die off leaving the more responsible ones to get along with life." Even better, let the major companies supply clean drugs and have the government tax the stuff so it can pay off the damn deficit. It's just political bullshit and lobbying and GREED that keeps most of these drugs unavailable to those who need them (speaking here of cancer, AIDS, anorexics, spinal injuries etc...) and those who want them.

And don't think for a fuckin' minute that Phillip Morris and the other tobacco companies don't have a Spliff (pot and tobacco) formula ready to hit the shelves the minute that pot is legalized...

Remember DARE=Drugs Are Really Expensive

-Rez

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Message 48/113                 Date: 02-Jul-99  @  09:32 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Rambling Madman

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Yup, I actually read somewhere some time ago that they really have marketing compaigns and stuff allready plotted out for the sale of a tobacco/pot mixture cigaret.

Something else to think about... figures of people who have tried pot in their lives is higher in the US where you can go to jail for it than in Holland, where you probably won't have to drive more than half an hour to find a coffeeshop.

When legalizing pot it would also be possible to control the quality, and then I'm not thinking about the strength but rather the purity. How the fuck would you know that the pot you just bought from that dealer doesn't have pesticides used by the grower all over it ? Or that he hasn't laced it with something ?

A lot of the drug-money is being recycled into the legal part of the economy. Do we really like people who are big-time drug-dealers to gain foot in legal corporations and businesses ?

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Message 49/113                 Date: 03-Jul-99  @  03:35 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

NOTEVEN

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Hey, Sedusa even if you hate me for being such an ass for all of the shit i have done i could care less, i now think you are very cool for the statement above.

URKewl 

out...

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Message 50/113                 Date: 03-Jul-99  @  08:04 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

k

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well in the words of the famous song.

"hey mr policeman you no like ganja-man, but a we bring the foreign currency pon the island"

there's no need for any more research, this thing has been researched right up it's own ass so many times it's ludicrous... and yes it's true, in a country like Holland where it is legal, younger people dont see weed as a daring thing to do, it's there, and most of 'em choose to not take it, just like in Spain or Germany... but on the TV all you see is some fat white overpaid bitch in a lab coat banging on about drugs and measuring weed out into testing containers like they are doing serious research or something.. what a fucking joke... i'd be-head the lot of them if i had my way...

like i said, it's purely political, legalised weed would give economic power to states the USA doesnt want to have power... as for drugs perse, 90% of the population IS on drugs anyways, if you include booze, ciggies valium & other tranq's and all the plethora of drugs people are on across the western world supplied via doctors & pharmacies... weed is just another tranq, and it's nowt more than politics that keeps it in the arena it is in... but to legalise something like crack or coke is insanity... sure weed has gone up, and the local 'no-concience' dealer faced with a purely business motivated equation obviously sees a greater profit margin in more destructive drugs.. THAT is why they are so prevalent, it is in the dealers interest to encourage people onto a product with a high dependancey rate & a faster turnover = greater profit..

personally, i agree with the more astute political brothers from Malcom-x to PE, who have long ago realised that it is in the dominant white societies interest to have the minorities addicted to drugs , be it booze, crack, religion or whatever... keeps them down... and hey, white kids get shot in Colarado, and we get it on OUR tv in the Uk, but i don't notice the same thing when a bunch of young brothers gets wasted in a drive-by ??!

sad world we live in to be sure... and sadder, the USA also influences the judicial systems & sentencing in other countries with which they are trading... to be sure, placing low-class-drugs in the same arena as other seriously bad drugs does bring the user into potential contact with those other more dangerous destructive drugs..... but then, when the US government gets some money to spend on the situation... does it go to shelters?.. does it go to rehab ?...does it go to spruce up inner cities & create better more productive lives for it's citizens??...??... no it goes to drug-enforcement agencies to buy nice new helicopters so they can fuck about all over south-america... and it goes to line the pockets of rich media advertising companies to produce shitty TV adverts that the kids just laff at anyways.... it's about as stoopid as putting a parental advisory sticker on a CD.. doing that merely stamps the Cd with the seal of must-have approval for kids... franly if i released an album in the USA, i'd open the 1st track with , "fuck fuck fuck" just to get the sticker, cos then it'd sell more cd's....

but then intelligent people were never meant to be a part of politics... and "Read my Lips - No new taxes !!" is now bringing forth it's inevitable fruits... you cant have a decent society without social education, decent conditions & at least a modicum of equality... and that requires that EVERYONE puts something into the pot in order to have a better society.... unfortunately, the white middle-classes think they can hide away from the consequences of their self-motivated greed-based voting, and THAT is what the government is there to supply, a shelter from the physical evidence of the results of their greed... they sit there gloating cos their house is worth another 200K this year, whilst others sleep in the street.. hah !!.. and they have the fucking nerve to hand you a bible to swear on when you go to court....

it's a sham of a mockery of a sham... but there it is... y'know, i have to say it.. i'll be fucking glad when the USA sorts itself out... then the rest of us can get back to sanity, can't you guys riot or something ??...

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Message 51/113                 Date: 03-Jul-99  @  10:42 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

spawn

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Eh, riot? They tried that in the 60's and again in LA awhile back. It didna work... makes for good TV for a spell though. Naw , over here there's too many weekend warriors who want to go kick some protester/ethnic/drug using/just wanna be left alone ass, just to get to deck out in their BDUs and wave their dic... I mean guns around.

Seize the media, now that might work. Hit the people where they live, in their TVs/computers/radios/etc. Ya start fucking with that ye might actually get some attention. Long live the Resistance!!! Or the Revolution!!! Or sumthin' like that anyway, I canna remember right now. I saw it in a movie...no on the web...no! It was the radio.... Aw fuck, more likely it was at the bottom of a toilet that I had just heaved me groceries into.

Peace Out

yer ever pacifistic Mindspawn

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Message 52/113                 Date: 03-Jul-99  @  02:55 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Ison

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Drugs have been used without problems since before man became Cro Magnon.
Any initiative to stifle this creativity can only ever be a short term measure.
Those who fail to recognize this fundamental fact have no future in evolutionary terms.
Government as we see it portrayed today by the clowns that are politicians is simply an Anachronism.
I hope you are all putting out this via your music.

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Message 53/113                 Date: 03-Jul-99  @  07:23 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

ozo

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well im going to see carl cox, josh wink and bad boy bill tonite. and if you told me i wasn't allowed to have any drugs then i would be very unhappy. not quite sure what that says about me....i'll leave that up to you people to figure out. higher state here i come
: )

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Message 54/113                 Date: 04-Jul-99  @  06:30 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Arinjie

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No one really wants to live....no one really wants to die...and so we complain constantly about the state of our lives. Drugs, music, art in general including telivision and movies....its all an escape, when one is excessively involved with any of those things it can take over you life and ruin it....but in moderation....each can be a healing or
what not....or something....baaaa....whatever

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Message 55/113                 Date: 05-Jul-99  @  04:02 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Henk

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Driving half an hour (by car?) to find some pot in Holland??,
By that time you would have ended up in either Germany or Belgium and it would be a lot harder to find some.
Better take the bike (if it's not stolen) and pedal for 5 minutes into town centre. There must be at least 20 places here in Groningen were they sell it. Also we have 4 so called 'grow shops' who specialize in stuff like seeds, computer controlled nutrient dispensers, natrium lighting etc. All the stuff needed for the successfull 'homegrower'. By the way pot is - not legal - here, the police just has no priority nor capacity to do something about it. Suplying the coffeeshops is still very illegal.
(That rather hypocritical isnt't it)

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Message 56/113                 Date: 05-Jul-99  @  10:53 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Rambling Madman

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Henk, I was just talking max. time here, I don't live in Holland myself (although sometimes I wished I did, my current nation-of-residence is becoming uncomfortable) and even for me it's only half an hour drive to da nice shop with da happy smell...

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Message 57/113                 Date: 06-Jul-99  @  02:48 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

k

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the wierdest thing across the whole debate is that for example ... you go to court, they call a ballistics expert, or a traffic accident expert to testify about the bullet marks, skid marks, crash positions etc ... in all areas the experts, the ones with the most exoperience are called for an opinion...... But with drugs, those people are the only ones EXCLUDED from the debate !!... and all youve got is a bunch of middle-aged politicians & so-called scientists running around babbling these theories... so wierd !... i think that is the biggest problem with bringing the whole issue into the arena for some reasonable public debate.....

really it is down to education... even with hard drugs i'd never recommend or condone in a million years.... i've had under-educated mates who were junkies.. and even stole from their own fucking housemates... & conversely ive had brainy mates who held down corportate jobs whilst being addicts... so there you are...

what i find even more hilarious, yet just an example of the stoopidity of humans, is that they cant seem to realise... whatever they WANT.. the politicians do it... just look around at all of them U-turning all over the shop to bring themselves inline with whatever is popular public opinion...where 3 years ago, or in the previous adminisrations term, they were vehemently agains something... a few months later they are in power... and suddenly they are FOR it... cos that is popular opinion dictating they should support it...

look whats happened with GM foods and that area in just a few months... it's gone from indifference to the Govt having to actually reverse policy... sorted !!!.... now, if people wanted it.... they could have all politicians forced to go to work dressed as count fucking dracula !!... with a cape, fangs, the lot !! :-)... and the parties would be scrabbling to comply to get votes ....... but people seem to be too stoopid to realise this important factor... if they organised themselves on a community level, they could get ANY damned thing they wanted... AND FAST !!...... sad huh that rather than do that, people organise themselves into fragmented clans/packs and end up with nothing .....still, that is the norm in animal behaviour....

another interesting point... just as the USA dictates and leans on foriegn governments over recreational drug issues... it's the same with food drugs... right now the USA has all the head seats in the european food council or whatever they are called.. they also have the two head scientific places, and they are leaning on european countries to have all sorts of drugs passed and introduced into our foodchain by using trade muscle to bully it in..... it's well underhand... like they want us to use a drug for cows which is in all the milk in the USA, (did you guys know that even ?.. it's been in your milk for 6 years now..!!)..It's a hormone drug from a US corporation, and it has been prooven to significantly increase tumor growth & other nasty things... interesting huh??.... i guess also, apart from other issues, US drugs companies stand to make billions from prescribed non-agricultural pharmacuticals, like tranq's, happy-drugs, anti-depressents etc... there must be a huge market in it...

a mate of mine just flipped a year back, and she was even sectioned for a few days... well, they pumped this drug in her after she collapsed... and she became like a fucking zombie !... i was freaked cos she just sat there for months, didnt move, didnt eat, and went down to like 5.5 stone (14lb to a stone- 2.2 kilo's to a lb... er...about 60 kilo's ??)... .. She said she was shocked when she got sectioned cos all the people in there she said were so young !!!..... like a massive bunch of young people locked up and drugged.... !!!!... wild !... she thought it's be all oldies in there pottering around in slippers....

right now over in the uk, the latest craze the drug companies have wheezed up is to pray on the uneducated fears of mothers after several outbreaks of food poisoning .... there's a rash of 'anti-bacterial' kitchen cleaners and soaps flooding the market....each one proclaims in tones more usually associated with hardcore action-movie video trailers, that the product will: "wipe out e-coli & listeria" .... hahahah... you gotta laff or youd weep...... well correct me if i'm wrong, but i was educated to beleive the body had this thing called the immune system that requires samples of bacteria to create an immunity... so quite what that means for kids brought up under that level of paranoid cleanliness in the future i dunno...,.. anyways... all that crap is going into the water chain... and it's bacteria that breaks down organic matter surely??... and i doubt the chemicals they add into the water that way go round going - "aha !!...an E-coli bacteria !!.. (pounce) !!... doh !!.. that's just some crappy breakdown-bacteria, i'll leave that one"..... so what the fuck !!!??...

yup..... there's HUGE money in drugs/pharmecuticals/agricuticals& agrichemicals/booze & tobbacco..... see... it's just fucking 'DRUG-WARS'..... one lot of barons against the others..... May the farce be with you !!...

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Message 58/113                 Date: 06-Jul-99  @  08:34 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Cheddar

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Fair play

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Message 59/113                 Date: 06-Jul-99  @  11:38 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Jasper

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Incidently.

I am now on day 6 of my stop smoking blow campaign (temporary), and my musical output has been steadily rising.

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Message 60/113                 Date: 06-Jul-99  @  12:36 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Damaged69

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You know, reading through a couple of these letters, alot of you bring up, "strength in moderation." Well ok. Let's say we put three people into a room. These three people are all going to try Coke for the first time. They have all been told by you guys, "Hey have fun....Just remember, Strength in moderation." Now honestly speaking people, the second that you inhale that shit, your playing with fire. You never ever know how much your going to like it. It's really not about self controll, loving yourself, or any of that bullshit. It's simply about experiencing something different, to take you away, or modify how your feeling already. Basically your playing russian roulet with a possible affliction. Bottom line, no two people will ever have the same experience. I dare any of you to say the whole "strength in moderation" bit to someone you really love and care deeply about. Would any of you actually want your son, daughter, mother, father, brother, or lover, even setting foot in that world? I really hope not! There's got to be more to life than that..........

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Message 61/113                 Date: 07-Jul-99  @  10:03 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Rambling madman (you have been warned!)

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I think a true full-blown psychedelic experience could really change a persons life for the better. E (which I don't regard as being a 'full-blown' psychedelic by the way) has been used with succes in psychiatry.

Having eaten way too much shrooms once, getting the worst trip (so far) of my life, spending some weeks after that trying to reintegrate in society again, Is something I experienced and wouldn't have any of the people I care for need to go through.
But... for me that trip planted a seed and totally threw my life around in a very positive way on many different levels (personal, career, values,.. ). And although I wouldn't do it again at the moment, I don't regret having done it, and might do it again in the future.

But really... the term 'drugs' is being used too general to often...
For me drugs are coke, crack, heroin, speed, jellies, tranquilizers, ... And there's a HUGE difference between these and shrooms, lsd, mescaline, dmt, 2cb,...
I don't know exactly where to put E though... it's a nice 'gateway' psychedelic, but only the first few times it seems.

Hey... told you I was a 'Rambling madman'.

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Message 62/113                 Date: 08-Jul-99  @  03:31 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

k

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i think it's fair to say, that with all these things, even the guy who has a few beers wakes up in the gutter one night after way too many and says - "never again in my life"... heheheh everyones gotta experience both side of it, as they do most things they flirt with... if it's down to a 'saving lives' thing of your loved ones, care and protection... well we're all nonchalant about cars, but i do recall ive lost more people to them than drugs.... so with that sorta carnage going on (y'all remember the "more people killed weekly than in vietnam war" thing.. well car carnage is always going up regardless of airbags & side impact bars and all that bollox)... i think it'd be hypocritical of any one to suggest that societies self-appointed guardians have a balanced setup...

also i think it depends what you beleive... see, if we had no cars, and drugs etc.... would the same people die anyways ?... at the same time ?.... some people beleive so

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Message 63/113                 Date: 08-Jul-99  @  08:30 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

damaged

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hmmmmmm.....gimmy a moment to think about that!........To some a car is a necessity, to me even.....a drug is NOT! One makes a drug a necessity, or chances it becoming that. All I'm trying to say is, what's the point? All I know is one day some idiot gave me a cigarette, a month later I was half a pack a day, two monts later, a whole pack....Now I can barley breath when I walk up a flight of fucken stairs.....I wish I never started smoking, but I did. In other words I gave myself an affliction I could have definitely done withought! No one ever know how they will handle something, all I know is, thank god it was a cigarette I was introduced to instead of heroin, coke, or tweek!

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Message 64/113                 Date: 08-Jul-99  @  02:11 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

99devils

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I also fell prey to the cigarette thing.. Was it good? No. Did I get hooked? Yes. Did I think I was too smart for my own good? Sure. Fuck I was 16... BUT: DO I THINK THERE SHOULD BE A LAW THAT SAYS PEOPLE CAN'T SMOKE IF THEY WANT TO: NO!!!

And the question of whether or not I would want a loved one dabbling in whatever... Of course not... But approaching it from a legal perspective, that's irrelevant. My point is that it's not something our governments should have a right to dictate to us... I'm not saying that the anti-drug and anti-booze and anti-smoking campaigns are bad things... I'm saying that those campaigns should be the vehicle for people who care about these topics from the opposite side of my particular fence to voice their opinions... Not to have the government ban whatever it deems "unsafe".

Here's a good example: In the county I live in, it is illegal for restaurants to offer smoking sections (without full enclosure and seperate vetillation). I know most of California is like this too. Anyway, I don't think it should be the government's business to tell a business owner what to do with his establishment. If an owner doesn't want me to smoke in his establishment, I won't, but I don't want the government pushing those people or me around...

My $.02

-C

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Message 65/113                 Date: 08-Jul-99  @  08:25 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Ison

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so what are the reasons behind prohibition?
Are they relevant as we enter the next decade?
I will put one reason to rest...
Overdose deaths=Statistically meaningless.

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Message 66/113                 Date: 08-Jul-99  @  11:27 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Flux Grid

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Until very recently I was as straight edge as they came. Now that is slowly changing. In highschool I saw people getting bombed and screwed out of their heads to "escape reality" or what have you. Personally I never saw the point of it, and I don't regret my choise to abstain. Now several years late rI think I'm ina much better postion to try these things if I want to. I have preset limits to what I will and won't try, I'm sure everybody does, but where does one draw the line? And you are more likely to cross that line the closer you get to it. If you want to do drug etc. that's fine, but's when it starts affecting other people thatthere is a problem. Hence governmental regulations (designated smoking sections). You guys are right though, where do they draw the line? Pot is very much the same thing as alcohol, and safer physically than cigarettes. Caffine is legal, what about downing 10 cappacino's? I still think moderation is the key, and if a person has an excessive personality than maybe they should steer clear.

Sorry for the rambling train of thought.

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Message 67/113                 Date: 09-Jul-99  @  05:45 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

influx

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Just gotta say...Mindspawn..I think you took that dude wrong up there when you lit into him...Im pretty sure that he was on "our side"...
This is one of the coolest threads Ive seen here...its quite impressive to see how well spoken some of these arguments are...
I gotta disagree with the statement by more than a few that "all drugs are the same"...drugs of a purely organic nature have a place in our bodies..a little "niche" if you will. I remember reading an essay that explained clearly that this is why certain substances get us high...there are receptors that "accept" these substances, allowing them to trigger favorable (soemtimes) reactions. If there are no receptors=no "high"...
now..these natural substances, being "acceptable" in our bodies, to me seem far less harmful than other substances that do not...the closer to synthetic a substance gets, the closer to totally foreign it is to our bodies and the more harmful it is! This "receptor" theory has holes..cuz how are things like PCP explained...since wack is purely synthetic, then how can our bodies accept it and let it get us hi? The answer is...poison...poison..poison. and the reaction seems pleasurable in minor amounts...
Im not making sense now. ..smoked one too many superkools  Final word: ADDICTION IS A FUCKING CHOICE! No two ways about it...somebody said that if someone does some coke you never know what will happen? BULLSHIT! If that person ends up hooked, there was a certain point where they said "well..this is getting out of hand, but...fuck it..gimme another toot.." and took that step knowingly NOT BLINDLY!!! And oh yeah...regulation sucks...I DO NOT want anybody telling me what to do with my body/mind/dick/whatever. It is none of their business, as it is none of mine what they do with theirs. AS SOON AS MY ACTIONS INFRINGE ON OTHERS THEN I NEED TO BE REGULATED. This I firmly believe...if you hurt someone else then it is up to the community to keep you in check. But since our government has lost all concept of community this has become impossible...
OKAY I WIN>>>LONGEST RAMBLE!!!!

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Message 68/113                 Date: 09-Jul-99  @  05:59 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

spawn

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Eh, Influx? Agreed. I was already scathed by some other folk on that account. I respectfully withdraw my statements as directed to Ison, but remain committed to the ideas the statements were directed at. See how drugs can make you misinterpret things. Evil weed..... (as he stairs into rings of thick pungent smoke wafting away lazily toward the ceiling).

Peace Out

Mindspawn

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Message 69/113                 Date: 09-Jul-99  @  06:02 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

VOTIVE_MGMT

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Hmmm, well where do i start. I lived in London from 1992-1994. My mate turned me on to some E and we went to Heaven and Trade on Saturday night. I never liked MOS, and most other clubs were naff as fuck. We once tripped acid in Hyde Park, watching the flower pots twist thier tops and seemingly laugh with incurable joy. I was laughing to, but scared at the same time, think about it. I personaly believe hemp is okay to smoke, but I don't smoke it any more (my deep personal beliefs and piss poor memory  

My last trip was on a microdot that last near 20+ hours. That my friend was the last time ever I tripped on anything, E or acid. My point is, if you take something to many times; for to long, you'll end up losing in one way or another. Now I am 29 (still in college   making A's. I don't regret what I have done, for I can feel a deeper meaning of art and music. If it grows natually (right from the ground only) then do it, otherwise leave it alone, i.e. acid, pcp, e's ect.

Ensure you are hurting no one with whatever you do. If you are effecting your family's pride and joy by them seeing you OVERUSE drugs, then reconsider your ways. Love those who love you, and forgive (and bloody ignore) those who give you grief mates.

Lastly, for you dance heads life me self, you CAN dance your way into a trance like state by not only listening to the music, but letting the music move you with its own feeling. I am originally from Chicago, "jackthehouse Nation". I been a dance head since around '85, and now I produce some chunes of my own(BT'ish and PVD) You really don't need E and trips to really get in the groove mates, you just gotta get IN that groove, saving your heart valves, some brain cells, ache'n jaws, and about 25 quid.

Regards and Peace to all

VOTIVE

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Message 70/113                 Date: 09-Jul-99  @  06:08 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

VOTIVE_MGMT

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Mad props to me boy Influx ! Properly said mate.

VOTIVE

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Message 71/113                 Date: 09-Jul-99  @  08:58 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Cheddar

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Straddling the fence raining words.

Picking up the pieces I say that the youth enjoy like there is no tomorrow for there are so many that times little value. High is a new place (return to youth) but will change (E's effect for the first few).
Deathbed thoughts of spending and value and missing the events of childrens children may have us all regretting - especially with ugly breathless death.
Statistics are dry and have little to do with us and yet there are the only 'reliable' indication we can try to apply. Unless we have any healthcare proffessionals out there who can help us pick up this piece.

Cigarettes again (by way of principal). How come a hugely complicated mechanism like a cigarette lighter (BIC, Clipper), containing pressurised gas and built safe enough to be sold worldwide is so cheap. Is anyone subsidising and if so could we guess who?

Synthetics - bally nonsense. I find a natural molecule, analyse it identify it and synthesise the same molecule - it is a synthetic. I agree that 'natural' is a mix of many different molecules that will show variance in the molecular compositions and the relative amounts, (THC and THC and what) otherwise the coffeeshops would have little in the way of choice. The point about acceptors is relevant here - this is the case but this does not underline the natural of it (see below). The receptor is an electronic pocket specific (more or less) to an electronic physicality however that is made or appears. I would be interested in the 'why' of it - why is this pocket there? Evolutionary advantages? There is an argument that everything that has evolved has a why (even why old evolutionary developments have not lapsed back) answer that and you have an argument that will put demoncracy and social order into the last 3 minutes of makinds day.

Friends and things. I have an old club mate coming to visit soon and we would dabble, and even though i have not partaken in a long time (since last we met infact) I would consider getting on one to sort it out for his arrival. How strong is the peer pressure, how much of the experience is returning to old times (wombs) and if addiction is a choice then what are you to move these seminal events around like playthings of your past.

Latest stats say that the amount of time we spend smoking cigarettes is the same amount of time we shave from our old age. When it is the mileage and not the age, you get to old quicker but may have more memories to fill the 'smaller' time. It's got to be relative, innit.

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Message 72/113                 Date: 10-Jul-99  @  11:15 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

damaged

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hi all!

I aggree will all your statement's since I last wrote in, except on one thing. I don't agree that addiction is a choise. I definitely feel that some people a much greater addictive personality than others.
Alot of you also mentioned the whole "government shouldn't moderate what I can and can't do" thing. I agree with that completely! Who am I, or who is anyone else to say what someone else can, or can't do??? Legalize Fucking Everything for all I give a shit. I just feel from my own personal experiences drug use leads to nothing more than a dead end. (no pun intended)

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Message 73/113                 Date: 10-Jul-99  @  02:30 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Ison

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In a week that saw our UK government spuriously attack sections of the uk workforce for being resistant to chance it strikes me as hypocracy of the worse kind that even cannabis for valid medical grounds is still prohibited.
Must be still money to be made out of the war on drugs then.
I reckon a war on crazies with ugly wives would be a better waste of time and money.
Well you know how it goes paedophillia will be legalized for high ranking personages before we succeed in greating a stable environment for the peacefull use of substances.
Just think of the great leap forward in technology since the likes of LSD were discovered.
Now there is a source of change.

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Message 74/113                 Date: 15-Jul-99  @  03:56 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Pongoid

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Damn! So much much I'm tempted to say, but most of it has been put out in better fashions than I could have managed it. A few words, though:
Regarding the original post, I'm no Great, but I certainly can relate to the "tool" apsect of drug use. I used to be able to identify quite well with the "recreational" apect, but most of that time has past for me. I've found that with an altered perception, brought about with chemical assistance, I have composed what I believe to be some of my best work. It didn't necessarily adhere to my standards of neatness/tightness, etc.... but the content of the idea at times touched on genius that would not think my self capable of in a sober state. Altered perceptions can motivate one to try different avenues of approach in expression. Drugs are simply one way of altering ones perception.

It would seem that many people are displeased with the way that we are programmed to percieve drugs. It also seemes that many of you have broken that programming. Good for you. There are many other areas of bullshit to stop buying into, but to see this many solid statements from individuals who have shaken at least this much of the programming is encouraging. Go forth and spread this word further. Most of you are preaching to choir. One thing that I don't think has been stressed enough is how beneficial to the programmers it is to keep drugs illegal. These governing bodies (the people that really run things) reap such power and profit from the sales and control of these substances, its mind-blowing. Marajuana is THE SINGLE LARGEST CASH CROP ON PLANET EARTH AT THIS TIME. No other plant raises more money or has more economic influence than this plant. Nor is any other plant more terrifying to the programmers as it can break so many of the economic chains that bind most humans into slavery. Do the research. You'll see. Plenty more to be said on this topic, but I'll leave it to others, better suited. A last note, though: for better or for worse, illicit drugs helped to make me the person I am today.

Ape

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Message 75/113                 Date: 16-Jul-99  @  09:41 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

influx

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Im not going to go too far into this, but about the "Addiction is a choice" statement I made...FUCK YES IT IS!!! "Addictive personality" my arse!!! All that shit is is modern society babying the fools (no offense to any addicts here) who allow themselves to be controlled by ANYTHING external...no matter what, at some point, every addict said "fuck it..Im gonna keep going". It might have been alittle after they were already "addicted" to whatever substance, but it was still a choice, and if they missed the last exit before addiction, its only cuz they werent paying attention.

We are "programmed" to be completely unaware of whats inside..me included...I am so NOT self conscious (in a positive sense) that I sometimes dont even know what tha fuck..and its from all the shit Ive received over my 27 years...

now addiction...the "choice" made comes when one is so UNAWARE of whats going on inside that they just move blindly, smoking, snorting, shooting..whatever, without being conscious of the fact that they are locking themselves into a cell...behind bigger and bigger doors and walls...

IT IS A CHOICE NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY!

you dont just "become" an addict...and if someone tends to be more of an addictive type, they would know this if they were more self-aware!!!

It all ties into the programming thing..."JUST FLOAT ALONG AND DO WHAT WE TELL YOU>>>WELL TAKE CARE OF YOU>>>GIVE YOU PILLS WHEN YOURE SICK AND (supposed) COMFORT WHEN YOURE COLD. COST? ONLY YOUR MIND...WE ASK ONLY THAT YOU FALL IN LINE AND SHUFFLE ALONG LIKE THE REST OF THE LEMMINGS WE ALREADY DOMINATE"

Pongoid sees it, Mindspawn sees it, 99Devils sees it..>Sedusa...who else.

Can YOU see it?
BOY...anybody got any valium?
lemme climb off my soapbox here 

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Message 76/113                 Date: 16-Jul-99  @  09:48 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

influx

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and about the "art and drugs" thing...

Read Huxley's "Doors of Perception" or some of Leary's ramblings...or any writing from 1930-1970 on the concept of hallucinogens (and other drugs) and their influence on personality...

A key to open the doors to the other side..a side that exists (internal and in our surrounding) but we just dont see. ANYONE who has done hallucinogens and payed attention instead of saying "WOW...look at the pretty colors) knows this...

There is something there, that "normal" lemming life just doesnt let you see. You dont have to do drugs to see it, but they are definitely the superhighway to "enlightenment"...a much more positive route would be to spend 2-3 hours or more a day meditating, but many of us (me included) just cant do it...cant sit still long enough for the results...

Shit am I pissed off right now!!!

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Message 77/113                 Date: 17-Jul-99  @  04:53 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Pongoid

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Hear, hear!!! Well said, my friend.

Ape

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Message 78/113                 Date: 17-Jul-99  @  08:10 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

influx

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YO! I called you, Baby...I lagged tho...
Im thinkin Im gonna hook up wit yall up in OR...maybe come along for the ride for a while if theres a place for me...Im tired of this shit man...
dont have a niche here and its killing me...
GottafinditGottafinditwhereisitwhoamIwhenwillIknowgottalookinsided JUST A LITTLE HARDER

Slippin

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Message 79/113                 Date: 17-Jul-99  @  11:03 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Purple Haze

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Or read some Castaneda besides Huxley or Leary...

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Message 80/113                 Date: 17-Jul-99  @  05:11 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Arinjie

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hmmm, hears another perspective for you, maybe the reason so many musicians do drugs is because music is so unbelievably depressing. You find yourself working really hard on something and it turns out different than you really wanted, you sing a song and it sucks, you keep trying and trying and trying and nobody cares. constantly berated for wanting to do music. i mean the prospects arent good and its very hard to make a real liveing doing music or any artform for that matter and drugs are just a short step away.......

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Message 81/113                 Date: 17-Jul-99  @  05:23 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Pongoid

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Ahh....The Curse of the True Artiste....Actually, that is a pretty good reason to get fucked up. Now has anybody seen my rig around? Know I left it around here somewhere....


Ape

Influx, We'll have to see see about room on the bus or wherever for travel/sleeping purposes, but you're definately welcome at the parties, and after hearing your stuff, we can figure out a time for you to go on, but beware, kid. This ain't no fuckin' picnic. We live hard.

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Message 82/113                 Date: 18-Jul-99  @  02:24 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

NOTEVEN

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What up Influx.
Here in the states(in case you arent from here) we have an ever incresing population of excessive teenage drug use at these "all night events". I tend to think that these kids posess "addictive personalities" because of their
lack of knowing better, and from being caught up in the "scene". I am a firm believer in the "addictive personality" theory, judging from the before and after effects of drug use on several of my closest friends.
Given the excessive teenage drug use issue, do you think they choose to be addicted, or they have addictive personalities?
I am not trying to start any shit, but i have seen many of my closest friends go through it all(including myself)
and i could see it coming a mile away.

out...

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Message 83/113                 Date: 18-Jul-99  @  04:25 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

influx

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"and i could see it coming a mile away."

My point exactly...
I think kids are stupid sometimes (I was) but still make the choice...again..all this peer pressure shit...its all apologetic bullshit that takes responsibility away from the individual...

I am sorry if you got fucked up on drugs...same for your friends, but I firmly believe that the act of becoming addicted is a conscious one..no one shoves that needle in your arm or tooter up your nose...the reason folks get caught up in the shit is that they simply arent paying attention like I said earlier

now with the rave scene...most of these kids are just plain followers...5 years ago they were into "grunge" (or woulda been if they werent shitting their pants)..and before that? SO, their lemming like behavior leads them to do all this stupid shit like drinking that GHB crap or taking too much X. But no matter what they choose to do that shit...

I am definitely over-simplifying the whole deal..Ill be the first to admit it.

But it comes down to personal responsibility. ALL OF IT. Everything we do is by choice...and the thing is, most people just may not have been taught to be self-aware, or self-analytical...if we're taught to look at ourselves and our behavior from the outside we are far less likely to fuck up...and if we are self aware..cognizant of our internal workings and strong enough to act (or not) based on them, then we are far less likely to fall.

This ties into the initial topic, too...drugs put you a little more in touch with your inner workings..even speed and shit like that (at first..before you get all fucked up) allow you to go a little further inside than most of us are capable. So isnt it possible that part of the reason that a lot of musicians/artists/writers etc have been known to partake is that:

1)They, as Emersons Poets, see more than the rest of the numb-minded lemmings; FEEL more than them, and are hence forced to find some means to explore the complicated workings of themselves?

2)Since they see and feel more (arguably) perhaps they also find the need to medicate against the turmoil that this causes? One who lacks any extensive self-knowledge may tend to be "happier" or at least unaware of theyre unhappiness...but those with a third eye (even partial) in the form of any sort of expressive ability are in touch with all that marginal territory, and may be overwhelmed.


OK>>>enough of that shit! Man am I on a rambling trip lately or what? Sorry folks..but this is something I find totally fascinating and cant help but go on and on about...

HEY "NOTEVEN" feel free to "start shit" man...if your opinion differs from mine (which it obviously does) it certainly doesnt offend me (or matter even really..your you, Im me..and never the twain shall meet ). Please pardon my callous dismissal of you and your friends experiences with addiction 

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Message 84/113                 Date: 18-Jul-99  @  04:26 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

influx

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"and i could see it coming a mile away."

My point exactly...
I think kids are stupid sometimes (I was) but still make the choice...again..all this peer pressure shit...its all apologetic bullshit that takes responsibility away from the individual...

I am sorry if you got fucked up on drugs...same for your friends, but I firmly believe that the act of becoming addicted is a conscious one..no one shoves that needle in your arm or tooter up your nose...the reason folks get caught up in the shit is that they simply arent paying attention like I said earlier

now with the rave scene...most of these kids are just plain followers...5 years ago they were into "grunge" (or woulda been if they werent shitting their pants)..and before that? SO, their lemming like behavior leads them to do all this stupid shit like drinking that GHB crap or taking too much X. But no matter what they choose to do that shit...

I am definitely over-simplifying the whole deal..Ill be the first to admit it.

But it comes down to personal responsibility. ALL OF IT. Everything we do is by choice...and the thing is, most people just may not have been taught to be self-aware, or self-analytical...if we're taught to look at ourselves and our behavior from the outside we are far less likely to fuck up...and if we are self aware..cognizant of our internal workings and strong enough to act (or not) based on them, then we are far less likely to fall.

This ties into the initial topic, too...drugs put you a little more in touch with your inner workings..even speed and shit like that (at first..before you get all fucked up) allow you to go a little further inside than most of us are capable. So isnt it possible that part of the reason that a lot of musicians/artists/writers etc have been known to partake is that:

1)They, as Emersons Poets, see more than the rest of the numb-minded lemmings; FEEL more than them, and are hence forced to find some means to explore the complicated workings of themselves?

2)Since they see and feel more (arguably) perhaps they also find the need to medicate against the turmoil that this causes? One who lacks any extensive self-knowledge may tend to be "happier" or at least unaware of theyre unhappiness...but those with a third eye (even partial) in the form of any sort of expressive ability are in touch with all that marginal territory, and may be overwhelmed.


OK>>>enough of that shit! Man am I on a rambling trip lately or what? Sorry folks..but this is something I find totally fascinating and cant help but go on and on about...

HEY "NOTEVEN" feel free to "start shit" man...if your opinion differs from mine (which it obviously does) it certainly doesnt offend me (or matter even really..your you, Im me..and never the twain shall meet ). Please pardon my callous dismissal of you and your friends experiences with addiction 

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Message 85/113                 Date: 18-Jul-99  @  08:02 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

NOTEVEN

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"and i could see it coming a mile away"
The point i was making with this comment was the predictability of the personalities that were involved in these situations. I have done my fair share of drugs(and probably alot more than a "Fair"share) but, i was never addicted to anything. I have lost several friends and seen many lives changed by their experiences, but i am still challenged to determine whether they knew what they were doing. I cant for a second see my friends getting fucked up with the intent to die. So this is probably why i see it the way that i do, and i definately understand where you are coming from. But i dont think %95 of people in the drug culture understand what their actions can/will react in.
Even though given the invitation to "Start Shit" i dont feel the need 
Especially if you are one of the %5.


out...

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Message 86/113                 Date: 18-Jul-99  @  06:22 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

influx

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Like I said, I have compassion for people..only because I care...
but even what you are saying now involves a lack of self-awareness...
if someone who was close to you got messed up on drugs, or died for that matter, you have my sympathy...

my whole point is simply that the situation could have been avoided for (IMO OF COURSE) the majority of these people had they been more introspective...but like I said, Im oversimplifying the whole thing

Peace

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Message 87/113                 Date: 19-Jul-99  @  02:25 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Rez

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Hey NOTEVEN, although I agree with influx, Mindspawn, Pongoid, 99Devils, Sedusa etc..., I do see your point of view. There are too many people who have "addictive personalities". BUT, I would have to say that this is probably due to the FACT that society does a damn good job of brainwashing most everyone into thinking that how everyone else perceives them, is all important. It tends to kill off those who see themselves in a different light and those of us who reject society's norms. What I mean by "different light" is those of us who focus on building themselves in the way they want to see themselves instead of working on how society sees them. Society hasn't prepared most people for drug experimentation. Society is more concerned with image or more to the point how everyone else sees you. As a result I think that MOST people wind up looking at themselves in a very shallow sense instead of focusing on what makes them feel good.

All of this rambling may seem to come across as "Society is to blame, not the individual". This is not the point I want to make. What I'm trying to say is that society IS a powerful influence. This I believe is the viewpoint that NOTEVEN is coming from.

Where I think everyone else is coming from is that on a base level, YOU have the choice and YOU make the choice. Quote influx here: "but I firmly believe that the act of becoming addicted is a conscious one... no one shoves that needle in your arm or tooter up your nose..." EXACTLY. FUCKING EXACTLY!! No one did it to you. It was a CHOICE THAT YOU MADE, NO ONE ELSE. Don't blame anyone but yourself. However, I do have sympathy for those who have been taken advantage of (ie: getting a seemingly innocent drink that has been laced with something without their knowledge) but that is a very small percentage of the overall drug use in the world. But in the MOST BASIC sense, YOU MAKE THE CHOICE. Most people just don't realize it for what it is (the choice that is, not the drug...) so they dive right in. Then it's time to either sink or swim...

Also, (since I've apparently borrowed that soapbox from influx and I've climbed aboard) not everyone uses drugs for recreational SOCIAL use. Opening the "third eye" has been a long quest for me and the more it opens, the more I realize that it is a very personal, very spiritual journey. This would negate the social side of my drug use more and more in the future. So I've been doing it in smaller and smaller groups with a probably culmination of self. Does this make me an addict? No. It isn't something that I can do everyday, nor even every month. This is a choice I make. However, all my life I've know I'm not like most people, but overall, THIS IS A CHOICE I MAKE.

What it comes down to is being responsible for your own actions. Most people find someone or something else to blame. Only you are responsible for your own actions. Step up and move on, get over it. If you cannot, *shrug* so sad.

I'll climb down now. Here influx, here's your soapbox back...

-Rez

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Message 88/113                 Date: 19-Jul-99  @  07:14 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

skul

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regarding organics vs. synthetics: just because a "synthetic" compound isn't currently known to exist in nature doesn't mean that it hasn't, doesn't, or won't someday. what if somebody genetically engineers a plant that as part of it's biochemical processes produces MDMA?

furthermore the part about organics being tuned to receptor sites in the brain is bullshit. just because an organic compound binds to a receptor doesn't mean a synthetic won't do it, or won't do a better job of it for that matter. poison? there are as many organic poisons as synthetics. all drugs are poisonous given the correct dosage (careful with that tylenol, kids).

the government has no business legislating morality.

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Message 89/113                 Date: 19-Jul-99  @  08:14 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

99devils

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I'm glad to see others feel the same way as I do... As Influx (well said, BTW) said, it all comes down to RESPONSABILITY!!! Addiction is a choice, and not paying attention isn't an excuse... People need to learn to accept responsability for the choices they've made. And society needs to learn to not scapegoat... Ever watch a story (like Dateline or 20/20) on TV about an addict? All they do (not the addict, the show) is him and haw about this factor or that factor that lead to the addiction... Never once mentioning that the addict could have chosen to take Kung Fu to get his negative energy. I also think most people who become addicts start for the wrong reasons... They start to numb pain (or the perception of pain), and of course everyone uses for a bit of escape sometimes... But that's different (IMHO) than people who start because they are looking for answers about themselves, or even people who just want a kick on a Friday night. If that particular person had had enough presence of mind to find out a bit about the options, perhaps they wouldn't be shooting speedballs...

I also VERY STRONGLY agree with the theory that government should not legislate morality. I'm pretty sure that Ben Franklin, George Washington et al for all you Americans out there felt the same way. I'm sure Ben Franklin would puke on the Oval Office carpet if he spent 10 minutes with today's law books...

I hope I haven't stolen anyone's soapbox!

-Craig

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Message 90/113                 Date: 19-Jul-99  @  09:51 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Ison

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I can imagine no worse situation than being imprisoned for somebody elses drug crazed legislation.
The real problem is not Drugs but Americas constitution which enables any crazy to own a gun.
If you watch any US film with drugs as part of the plot you will see that it is always the gun that actually kills anyone.
And because the USA is always in the right their own principles must be implimented worldwide.
So remove the Gun and you have no drugs problem.
I hope that this makes it plain that the drugs issue is just a front so that the gun issue is not resolved.

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Message 91/113                 Date: 19-Jul-99  @  10:07 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Marko

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I'm not quite sure if you remove the gun you remove the drugs problem as here in the UK we don't have such a big gun problem but we still have a big drugs problem. Even after the banning of guns the problem is still growing. I live up in Cheshire (relativly in the country) and I know people who carry guns (I nearly got shot for not having any cig's). I also know many people who do and deal drugs (not me-too much of a risk especially in a fairly small community like this. Anyway I don't agree with dealing). I know a 17 year old with a record with around 12 counts of possetion and 6 with intent to deal. He recently got arrested for driving on crack and was found carrying a semi automatic weapon and an 8" knife-needless to say he is in a youth offenders place and we all know where he will be for most of his life. This rather put me off getting involved with that shit. Like drink though.

I agree with guns being a front though, as all the worlds governments could do far more to stop the trafficing of drugs and generally, gun incodents are more publicised than drug ones. In the UK this has become more true lately as usually you will only here about drugs if a huge haul has been made.

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Message 92/113                 Date: 19-Jul-99  @  10:14 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

marko

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sorry miss type- thats 2 counts of possetion (makes a bit of a difference over 12!) and 3 for dealing. Also he wasn't found with drugs, driving and with the gun & kife @ the same time- these were seperate incodents (I thought I made that clear till I read it through again). Anyway, seems a bit of a waste of his life.

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Message 93/113                 Date: 19-Jul-99  @  11:48 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

uvc

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I really agree with your sentiments Craig and Influx. On friday night i was at one of Sydneys clubs and a guy died from taking some drug (can't remeber what it was called, but it is a bad batch doing the rounds other people have gotten sick), the Police were down there, front page news the next etc. Its really sad the guy was 22, about to complete his chef's apprenticeship etc. I ain't opposed to people taking drugs but Ultimately it comes down to you as the individual to take responsibility for there actions. The guy who died has only himself to blame. I know that sounds so cold and clinical, but its just the way it is. I hope the guy is in a better place now.

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Message 94/113                 Date: 20-Jul-99  @  12:52 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Arinjie

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A comment about guns...i dont want to sound like a militaristic psyco hear but gun control is a double edged sword i mean this may sound paranoid but if you take guns and such from the people whats to stop a corrupt goverment from exerciseing tranny over everyone?
its happened in the past and it will happen again everone thinks that guns need to be taken off the streets and blah blah blah and its really sad that so many people die because of it but i mean what can you do?
i believe its tragic and i hate guns worse than anything i believe they are a cowards weapon and they do cause more problems than they solve...but if it comes down to those that have and those that have not then it just seems easy for like say the military or someone to come and walk all over the peoples rights. All this is not as improbable as you might think but its pretty damn realistic if you look at history and how those that have better tecknology and weapons almost always oppresse those without look no further than the indians for you answers its a dangerous world we live in and a razors edge we walk on you cant really depend on other peoples morality to get you through life you have to look out for yourself sometimes.....

one love ya'll hehe

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Message 95/113                 Date: 20-Jul-99  @  01:23 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

influx

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Gimme my box back!!!!
The "receptors" theory is not BULLSHIT..I just explained it wrong...the deal is (what Ive read) is that substances only produce reactions in us if our body is programmed to accept the chemical basis of that substance...YES synthetics will work..of course..we all know that, but my point is is that these receptors were there before the synthetics came along...

WHAT AM I TRYING TO SAY NOW? That certain substances have a home in our bodies, and therefore arent AS dangerous as others...

When you start messing with shit like Coke and speed, which end up "replacing" the production of certain chemicals in our brains...you get damage..when you stop, those chemical systems that were working fine before are no longer functional, or not proper..

OK...Im still not getting it right..this is so full of holes..Im done 

Need we start on the guns thing? Please lets not...next thing we'll be talking bout sex and stuff, and we'll have 20/20 doing a special on DanceTech chat rooms...I can see it now!

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Message 96/113                 Date: 20-Jul-99  @  02:06 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

99devils

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I'm going to steer clear of the gun thing, although I'd like to make my opinion known that, according to my system of belief in American Constitutional Law (I am American, after all... Can't speak for you Europeans), I find ALL forms of gun control put in place by the US government to be ILLEGAL. Whether or not I agree with the previous statement is irrelevant, it's existance is part of what keeps other freedoms which I do care about in place.

I Quote, "Congress shall MAKE NO LAW..."

Anyway, It sucks that someone died from a bad batch... I truly feel for those people. And to be blatantly honest, the government controls that are supposedly there to "protect" people killed that young man. If the substance he was taking was a legal substance manufactured by a pharmaceutical company, that person would be walking the streets today. When's the last time you heard of someone dying from a bad batch of Tylenol?

Instead of dictating what people should and shouldn't do, why can't our governments work to offer a safe environment for us to do whatever we want?

-Craig

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Message 97/113                 Date: 20-Jul-99  @  03:19 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

skul

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Craig: you don't need a bad batch of Tylenol to kill somebody, just a lot of it (causes liver damage). and "a lot" is actually much less than most people would think.

influx: sorry, misunderstood you. yes, there are holes in the theory (as in most theories...). it's a bit of a stretch to say these compounds "have a home in our bodies". usually they work because they are structurally similar to neurotransmitters or other chemicals that alter the effects of neurotransmitters. but as to why they are similar, you've got at least a few different possibilities...

the coke and speed thing... don't actually "replace", but yes as a result you get less activity in the dopaminergic pathways. not good.

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Message 98/113                 Date: 20-Jul-99  @  04:37 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

99devils

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Skul - a lot of anything can kill anyone, and it's usually less than you think. The point I was trying to make was that a under a legalized drug trade, you'd be taking potency-regulated compounds manufactured at pharmaceutical grade facilities. The chances of you dying from a normal dose of something because someone mixed in too much anything are far more remote than taking a hit of acid that someone cooked up in their bathtub or something...

-Craig

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Message 99/113                 Date: 20-Jul-99  @  06:29 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

99devils

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How's 'bout that... 99 devils was 99th poster on this thread.. And this bullshit post just made it hit 100!

-Craig

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Message 100/113                 Date: 20-Jul-99  @  07:28 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Pongoid

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A quick note regarding legalities of drugs, and guns. Outlawing something is great for business. Drugs were outlawed. Now most major nations economies are propped up by drug money more than any other product. Do the research. The same will happen with guns. You can't just rule something away. Advocates of gun control belong in the same boat as those who push drug control. They are people who would rather just outlaw something rather than educate others to be responsible and considerate of themselves and others in their conduct. The easy way out. We all can and need to help educate and be willing to learn from each other. (I am not a fucking hippie!!)

Ape

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Message 101/113                 Date: 20-Jul-99  @  08:39 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

99devils

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Pongoid, I think that was the best, most concise pro-free-choice piece I've ever read... Props...

-Craig

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Message 102/113                 Date: 21-Jul-99  @  03:54 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

influx

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Fucking hippies 
...Props Pongoid...we're on the same boat...it all comes down to personal responsibility. EVERYTHING...if people were more aware, and more responsible..there would be a reduction in EVERYTHING>>>traffic accidents..drug addiction/ODs...you name it, self-monitoring would reduce it...

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Message 103/113                 Date: 21-Jul-99  @  09:21 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Ison

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Then get this the first world supplies guns to the third world.
|The third world is prevented from selling drugs to the first world.
So its OK to peddle pain and death if you happen to be government.
But not OK to peddle pleasure if you happen to be a poorpeasant farmer.
Its not a moral or health issue its just a means of achieving financial dominance over another population.

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Message 104/113                 Date: 22-Jul-99  @  03:20 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

k

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big thread going here... 2 things.

1. i thought they left off a bit of the Declaration, cos i thought the original said - "... have the right to bare arms for the establishment of a militia" or words to that effect, but they left out the "militia" bit nowadays... so in fact the constitution only allows for people to bare arms when forming a militia, which is now long gone since the forming of the regular US military....

2. frightening Tobbacco docu' on the TV a few nights ago... check it... the Uk & US govt made a deal, and cigarettes became standard army issue (ie, had to be included in the kit), and the UK spent more on US tobacco during the war than it did on planes and tanks and guns etc.... can you beleive that ?

as a consequence, after the war, 98% of English smoked cos they had been encouraged to for 5 years... .. and also the product was firmly established in all other territiories in the conflict from malaysia to europe... cool business move huh ?... the Brits even had a secret invasion plan to provide for 40 fags per week for everyone in the Uk if they were invaded... i mean they even made & setup a secret plan for it's supply from the USA in case of invasion !... ha ha

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Message 105/113                 Date: 22-Jul-99  @  04:55 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

99devils

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Kilo - there's been plenty of debate over the "militia" thing... The original intent was to allow the people to arm themselves against an oppressive government (!), as American colonists did against Britain in the 1700s... I personally couldn't care less if they do ban guns, but it's an important freedom to many Americans. Of course I'm for any sort of freedom for anyone (including, the freedom to blow your neighbor away, or in reverse, the freedom to prevent getting blown away by your neighbor), whether or not I agree or disagree with the merit of that particular freedom. I just want my government to keep it's hands off my life and out of my wallet.

As an OT - Does anyone realize how much money the US gov't spent dragging JFK Jr. out of the ocean, only to have the families cremate the bodies THEN THROW THEM BACK IN THE WATER!!!!!!!

-Craig

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Message 106/113                 Date: 22-Jul-99  @  08:58 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Ison

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The question is why the US government would still be interested in spending money on this particular dead American unless he is some how more important than your average live one.
Bad weather death...More money than sense.

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Message 107/113                 Date: 22-Jul-99  @  09:50 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Marko

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Saw that cig's docu. Said the US government were supplying each soldier with 50 a day!

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Message 108/113                 Date: 09-Oct-02  @  06:12 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Charlie

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There are 108 total messages for this topic... you must adjust to view


Funny stuff

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Message 109/113                 Date: 09-Oct-02  @  11:07 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

cheddar

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Repost for 99

Well here we are, eh?

Reflecting a shape to it rather than the sound it makes.

"Destroy and create in the same hand" feels right, perhaps the sound is the that of cut and the healing, or the cut and the continual probing and pulling of the scab so it never heals (perhaps that's the album or the 12" mix).

I think that drugs are a way to sensitise and like any significant event (bird leaving you, realisation of shit life, dead dog etc) it is a significant change to a future personally envisaged. The creativity is the flow into the void made by realisation of a difference.

For me I thought sometimes that i stood on a box, senses filled by the screen filling my view. The booze etc was there to have me on my tiptoes (unstable for sure) but able to peek around the surface of the screen, being amazed by the simplicity of the levers and their interactions that yielded the complex picture i would ordinarily percieve. The event would have me seeing both ways, into myself to see the mechanisms of recognition (forming a control) and from there out to the levers working the view. I could easily be off it by myself here but hey so what - as long as i like it it's got to OK. It's all relative but we are all the same, thats why even the most selfish expressions will find those in understanding (see shared states at raves, favourite love songs, invoking other senses whilst listening to music - smells etc), and so much more remembered for it.

I rarely saw the behind picture and it changed depending on my mood but the collection of experiences from 'around the back' make me feel like i have done something that i would wish to pass on and the unspeakable strangeness of it expressed through standard means such as words, music or tones of conversation brings the completely personal experience more into a genrally accessable format for public consumption (dance mix) or private preoccupation (accapela)

For me I think that new experiences (induced or not) keep me intertested enough to "get on one about it", to create a something and then feel confident enough to venture to take peoples time without feeling I am wasting their time.

I suspect there is a direct link between separation from reality, realisation of context and ability to create something relevant to that reality, if there really are few levers (and no original thought) the expression of it is possibly the only aspect the artist can contribute to the work.

"Whatever we choose to do to reach a place is nothing compared the effects of the weather there"

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Message 110/113                 Date: 09-Oct-02  @  09:15 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Steve Roughley

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I know I'm late but what the hell. Personally I feel that it has alot to do with the "Stream of Consciousness". It has been said many times that these mind altering substances boost the effects of the stream of consciousness, hence the use of them by artists.

Short description of SOC:
http://www.bartleby.com/65/st/streamco.html

Or more in-depth:
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/James/jimmy11.htm


Regards.

Steve.

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Message 111/113                 Date: 09-Oct-02  @  09:51 PM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

influx

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and how the HELL did you find this?!?!?!

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Message 112/113                 Date: 10-Oct-02  @  03:57 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

Charlie

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...In the bowels of DT's database, PLUS a lot of free time at work ;)

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Message 113/113                 Date: 10-Oct-02  @  05:11 AM   -   RE: Drug Addicts...

influx

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well I meant more like...HOW did you find it? what prompted you?

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