Bastiaan: Well, since Putin is not slaughtering millions of Chechen women
and children your cheap rhetoric is of no use to me.
I admit I exaggerated, it's hundreds of thousand not millions, I think my
point still stands tho:
The U.S. Government conservatively estimates that 80,000 Chechen civilians
and resistance fighters have died since 1999. Total deaths, including those
from the first Russo-Chechen war (1994-1996), are believed to be around
180,000, though figures compiled by both Russian and Chechen
non-governmental organizations suggest that this number may be closer to
250,000.
Many of the survivors have been driven from their homes. The United Nations
High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) reports that approximately 350,000
Chechens have been displaced by the fighting, with 150,000 sheltering in the
nearby republic of Ingushetia, and another 30,000 seeking refuge in regions
throughout Russia.
quote
'What goes around, comes around'
Bastiaan: Well, this is demonstrably UNTRUE since it is the weak (children
and women in particular) who get 'what goes around'.
They got what came around too didn't they, in Chechnya? If you expect people
to treat your own women and children with respect, it's probably not a good
idea to slaughter so many in the first place?
Bastiaan: 'who made the landgrab', because from the Jewish point of view it
was the Romans who did that first, and then the Byzantines, the Persians,
the Arabs, the Turks, the British and finally the Jews took some land
themselves. ANY piece of soil, ANYWHERE in the world was once 'grabbed' by
someone from someone.
I don't understand your point. There is no role for law, national or
international? The strongest wins
and that's ok? It's ok for the US to pump billions of dollars every year
into funding the Israeli war machine and then act surprised when the
Palestinians are prepared to stand up and fight? Wouldn't you do the same in
your country?
Bastiaan: Tell that to the Israeli children who were born in Israel and get
shot in the head or blown up in a pizza parlour, tell that to the
Palestinian child who gets send off to kill Jews with explosives strapped to
his chest, tell that to the palestian mother who's son just got lynched for
being 'in conspiracy with the jews'.
Except that over 5 times as many Palestinian children have been killed by
the Israelis, just since 2000:
Israeli children killed: 111
Palestinian children killed: 605
Israeli civilians killed: 694
Palestinian civilians killed: 2476
Israelis assassinated: 1
Palestinians assassinated: 308
Israeli bystanders killed in the course of an Assassination: 0
Palestinian bystanders killed in the course of an Assassination: 152
Funnily enough tho, the Palestinian kids just don't get the same news
coverage as the Israeli children? Racism maybe?
Bastiaan: And no, I don't think many of on this board are racists or dumb
fucks.
a) I wasn't accusing the people on this board of being either, I was
accusing the whole brainwashed, mind controlled, propagandised population of
the west of being so.
Bastiaan: Think about Churchill. He was a man that vehemently defended
British Imperialism YET he stood up against Nazism even when people like
Chamberlain opted for appeasement. I am so glad he did, aren't you?
This the same Churchill that recommended the use of air strikes and gas
against the Iraqis to quell those troublesome tribesmen? That's a straw man
argument.
Bastiaan: Preparation for that bomb has started in 2000, before a single
Spanish soldier has set foot on either Iraq and Afghanistan. Think about
that.
You really think this shit started happening in 2000?
quote
It would be appropriate to offer humanitarian aid, full stop, and
stop trying to kid ourselves that we occupy the moral high ground. The
wealth of the west was built on colonialism, the slave trade and genocide...
Bastiaan: That's simply not true anymore. Many Western Countries never even
took part in colonialism, slave trade and genocide. Many western countries
built up their wealth after WWII, after slavery had been abandoned and when
colonies were gaining their independence. Take Norway, Sweden, Switzerland
or even Germany, Japan...take China and India....sure no country has totally
clean hands but the fact that these countries are rich (or are getting
richer) is not because of slavery or genocide: it's because of free trade
and capitalism.
OK... you obviously never read your history? The whole basis of capitalism
and the 'free (now there's a joke) market' is slavery, capitalism and
colonialism and present day 'free marketeers and capitalists' are still
using the military and economic might of the west to rip off the rest of the
world.
The first stock market was founded in Amsterdam in 1602 and used to fund
the Dutch East India Company...and guess what country they forced to engage
in 'free trade' with them? Yes, Indonesia! using slave labour from
neighbouring countries. A prime example is the island of Banda in the
Indonesian Archipelago. The VOC simply killed off the Bandanese,
appropriated the island, and cultivated nutmeg as a monoculture, using slave
labour from neighbouring countries.
here's a good link to read about the results of that colonisation and abuse
in Indonesia by the Dutch:
http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/specialprojects/voc/voc.htm
The British stock market was set up to fund the triangular trade in coffee
and sugar - Raise money in London, sail to Africa, buy slaves, take them to
the Caribbean, pick up sugar and coffee, sail back to London, repeat and
fund countless other British imperial 'adventures' across the world.
To take your rather ridiculous 'examples' of western countries with no such
history:
Norway: Population 4 million, main trade until last century fishing. Then
they discovered Oil!
Switzerland: Vault for illegally acquired spoils such as Nazi gold etc etc
Germany: Many colonies in Africa (Haven't you seen Indian Jones and the
temple of Doom?)
etc...
Bastiaan: I totally agree with that. But it won't stop terrorism. The
hijackers of 9/11 were from rich families. In Thailand (a land that has
never been colonised) rebels are beheading farmers and blowing up temples.
It won't stop 'terrorism' any more than it will stop wars agreed. It is
surely, though, a way to decrease those who are prepared to support such
acts. At the moment we are just radicalising ever increasing numbers of
people across the planet by our arrogant, morally bankrupt military
imperialism. So, achieving the exact opposite of what is claimed to be the
purpose of these actions.
The problem is that some people are making billions of dollars out of this
situation.. e.g. Halliburton etc etc and selling it to us as 'defending
freedom'. Yeah, right..
Bastiaan: In Indonesia areas are being 'cleansed' of pagans, Christians and
Hindus, people who are native to the land and have nothing to do with
slavery, colonialism and genocide.
As before, read your Indonesian history! A pointer: Until 1945 there was no
such place as Indonesia, it was called 'Netherlands East Indies'. Even then,
this recognition applied only to territory the Republic physically
controlled (principally Sumatra, Java and Madura). The rest of the region
remained under Dutch colonial rule! In fact the Dutch launched a so-called
'police action' to recapture Indonesian-held territory.
Somewhat understandably the Indonesians turned to the Communist powers for
help as the 'protectors of freedom, democracy and justice' seemingly didn't
want any of these things happening in one of their colonies. You can guess
the rest: deliberate destabilisation, attempted coups by CIA backed 'freedom
fighters' (oops terrorists).
By the way, the Portuguese still kept their hands on East Timor until 1975,
hardly ancient history this stuff is it?
Gee, is it any wonder there are lot of pissed of people around the planet,
STILL trying to get out from the dead hand of the 'Free West'?