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Subject: russia


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Original Message                 Date: 03-Sep-04  @  04:05 PM   -   russia

mcc>

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when will man's spirit learn to accept the rule of a larger omnipotent police-state and
learn to denounce the desire to live free and independent lives?

and why is the U.S. so eager to help russia maintain it's borders now...when not that long ago....it denounced it as empire?
and actually spent mega-billions trying to contain it?
in some ways it might be more free...but is it?
how is it that those who were considered freedom-fighters are now be terrorists?

well....for one.....those poor children and their families.

it seems war has no prejudice against the innocent and never will.



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Message 21/88                 Date: 11-Sep-04  @  10:04 PM   -   RE: russia

Bastiaan

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"how is it that those who were considered freedom-fighters are now be terrorists?"

Maybe because they blow up airplanes, take entire theatres for hostages, behead aid workers and shoot school children in the back?



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Message 22/88                 Date: 12-Sep-04  @  01:00 AM   -   RE: russia

mcc>

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yes....true...all that...but they're still the same people we were calling freedom-fighters a decade ago.
what happened between then and now which has caused them to resort to such unforgiveable tactics to achieve the same ends which we were appaluding not that long ago?
you know...besides the fact that russia is our friend and brother now.



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Message 23/88                 Date: 12-Sep-04  @  01:08 AM   -   RE: russia

Influx

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bastiaan

definitely right. I dont understand the lengths these people go to in their supposed fight for freedom.

but then again...Ive never been systematically oppressed. Desperation has a horrible effect.

more what I meant tho was...one can be either terrorist or freedom fighter, and it often depends simply on who you ask.

so sad, all of it



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Message 24/88                 Date: 12-Sep-04  @  02:32 AM   -   RE: russia

mcc>

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not that it makes a big difference...but i think our old friend bastiaan was quoting my opening post.

i have to say i'm glad we've decided to re-enter the atmosphere.....
i mean...the worst that can happen is that we can disagree on everything and hate each other.
i think the risk one takes in an effort to understand other people's opinions is absolutely worth it...however.
we might actually find there are things we do agree on. perhaps unlikely.....but it's always worth a try.

besides...i think there's worse things than hate....like ignorance and indifference.



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Message 25/88                 Date: 12-Sep-04  @  04:50 AM   -   RE: russia

Pongoid

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Interestingly enough, I read a little something from the group claiming
responsibility for the action, and their story is quite a bit different than Putin's, in
addition the evidence they offer is rather interesting. Oh how the media and
politicians can make colorful stories of events to their own ends. I'm not saying
any of it is cool, or that I condone any of the loss of life. I'm just saying that it's
important to get as much insight into issues of this nature as possible to better
prepare oneself for the decisions one makes in resaponse to decisions one is
not allowed to make.

Ape



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Message 26/88                 Date: 12-Sep-04  @  07:06 AM   -   RE: russia

mcc>

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you got that right ape.



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Message 27/88                 Date: 12-Sep-04  @  12:57 PM     Edit: 12-Sep-04  |  12:59 PM   -   RE: russia

Zazza

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Stalin killed 50% of the Chechyan population back in the 40's attemtpting to deport the ENTIRE population of Chechnya to Siberia and Kazakhstan via boxcar. Anyone who died just got thrown off the trains.

25% of the Chechyan population have been killed since '94 because they had the temerity to want independence from that same state.

Why? Because all the oil is in the south and if Russia loses Chechnya then they are afraid the whole area will succumb to independence movements and they'll lose access to the oil.

Read this article from a Chechyan Doctor.

So, I guess a few kids don't mean much to people whose families have been systematically murdered over the last 400 years or so.



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Message 28/88                 Date: 12-Sep-04  @  02:10 PM     Edit: 12-Sep-04  |  02:20 PM   -   RE: russia

Bastiaan

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quote
yes....true...all that...but they're still the same people we were calling freedom-fighters a decade ago.


Yes, much like the contras and other fascist/terrorist groups. Both the big 'empires' of that era (the Sovietbloc and the US/Nato) supported rebel groups which were not worthy of support. Why? To make sure that at least the other side wouldn't gain any support.

That's the way world politics work. It's that simple. Stalin was considered an *ally* as long as he fought against the Nazis. After that he quickly become 'our' enemy. And with good reason, I may add.

Was it truthful to call him an ally? No, not really, since his ideology probably was much closer to that of the enemy than to 'ours'.

Was it foolish to call him an ally? No, we needed him and his armies to keep up to 80% of the Nazi military machine occupied so the western forces could sweep up the western part of the Reich.

Should we have allied ourselves with the Contras, the Peshmerga or Mobutu? No, I don't think we should have. I think the labels terrorists/dictator are far more accurate.

quote
what happened between then and now which has caused them to resort to such unforgiveable tactics to achieve the same ends which we were appaluding not that long ago?


Because they've lost support from the west (if ever they had any) they are resorting to desparate tactics. Much like the increasing amount of cruelty the Nazis used to supress any thought of an uprising from within. Of course it is not Nazism that drives most of modern day terror, it is (mostly) Islamic fundamentalism which just like Stalinism and Fascism bears a cunning resemblence to Nazism which transcends the aparent superficialities. (virulent anti-semitism, strict dogmatism, cruelty, torture, violence, uebermensch-thinking, expansionism, total obedience to hierarchical structures, infallibilty of the ideology etc.etc.)

quote
you know...besides the fact that russia is our friend and brother now.


In all honesty I think this is a matter of chosing for the lesser of two evils.

Pure pragmatism.

Take Israel, India, Algeria, China, Thailand, the Philipines or Russia for example. There's no doubt in my mind that the Israelis and the Russians use cruelty and dirty tricks to (as they call it) protect their national integrity and citizens. There's no doubt in my mind that when amnesty is saying they are trampling all over the human rights of a lot of Palestinians, the Chechens, the Uygurs, Moronese, the Kashmiri and the Malays of Thailand.

But what's the alternative?

People that shoot kids in the back, Palestinians that vow to cleanse the middle east from every Jew and show (literally!) Nazi propaganda on daily television, and have no probelm blowing up a pizza parlor or to shoot an infant at close range the Milf that beheads Nuns, the FIS and the GIA that kill of entire villages and cut up pregnant women to replave the foetus with a plastic doll, or Muslims militants that blow up polling boots and behead villagers simply because they are Buddhists.

Yes, oppression is a terrible thing, but many of these countries are not in the oppression business. Several of them or functioning democracies, yet we still see that there are people who blow up schools, behead civilians and shoot children, nuns and tourists.

Give me one reason why we shouldn't call a spade a spade, why we shouldn't call a terrorist a terrorist?

As long as Putin, Megawatti or Bautaflika are hunting down these bastards they should have our fullest suppot, not our condemnation. If and when they deny journalists their rights, torture people or commit other acts of wickedness: they deserve nothing but our scorn and should be critisized to the fullest of our abilities.

p.s. MCC if this was a lame attempt to call me uninformed or indifferent...well...I guess were done talking then. If not, my sincere apologies.



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Message 29/88                 Date: 12-Sep-04  @  03:09 PM     Edit: 12-Sep-04  |  03:11 PM   -   RE: russia

Zazza

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"As long as Putin, Megawatti or Bautaflika are hunting down these bastards they should have our fullest suppot, not our condemnation"

Koff...

As long as the Chechens are hunting down the bastards that slaughtered millions of Chechen women and children they get our support not condemnation?

To put it simply Bastiaan i think you have missed the point...

'What goes around, comes around'

Who started the terrorist war in Israel/Palestine? Who made the land grab? Obviously not the Palestinians becuase they already had the land.. so, gosh it must be that 'functioning democracy'.. honestly, I despair...

And so it goes, round and round, with us dumb fucks swallowing all the bullshit propaganda, racism and general mindless garbage passed off as politics...

You seem like a smart guy Bastiaan, surely you must admit that the 'Powers' US, Russia, Britain, France etc created this fucked up situation and that maybe we should stop trying to 'fix things'?

It would be approp[riate to offer humanitarian aid, full stop, and stop trying to kid ourselves that we occupy the moral high ground. The wealth of the west was built on colonialism, the slave trade and genocide... perhaps we should try to give something back instead of econimoically raping the third world and fuelling war and conflict with billions of dollars for our own war profiteering, oil interests etc?




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Message 30/88                 Date: 12-Sep-04  @  04:28 PM   -   RE: russia

mcc>

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bastiaan...i've always felt you were quite an informed individual and possessed passion of conviction.
i like that in a person.
i think i stated i was glad you were back to continue these discussions.....but in a cheap attempt to not give over the entire ballgame to you.....
i have to fall back upon the initial cruelty of western imperilaism which even goes back to the crusades.
i have never truly supported terrorism......and generally i try to condemn it full-stop no-ifs-ands-or-buts BUT the term and it's application are so over-used and abused anymore.....
and i swear to you....were indians fighting in america today to keep a bit of their own ancient land....we'd be calling them terrorists too.
and for every white scalp they claimed....we took a thousand of theirs.
advanced weaponry my friend. it has nothing to do with what's right or wrong.
but when you can eradicate the enemy so efficiently....
you can make up all the stories you want and who's to argue?



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