Original Message                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  05:37 AM   -   Faith

psylichon

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Persuant to another thread in another forum in another land...

I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)

I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.





Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.

I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.

And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.

This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?

Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...

Dave

p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...

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Message 91/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  04:57 PM   -   RE: Faith

Zazza

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x: you should my post.. the author isnt making money or cheerleading, in fact it is quite brutal.

The very reason I posted it is because it isn't the usual sentimental crap that passes for spirituality these days..

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Message 92/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  05:10 PM   -   RE: Faith

Zazza

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formant: 'i am into creator worship and will take earnest looks at anyone in history who claims to have had interaction with the creator instead of created things in the supernatural realm. that is why the new pagan and wicca stuff have no appeal to me. '

New pagan and wicca stuff? err.. actually christianty knicked most of it's celebrations from the OLD pagan and wicca stuff.

And why don't you just take earnest looks at everything and make your own mind up?

Anyhow i met the creator and he is just an energy vampire with a bad sense of humour.

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Message 93/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  05:14 PM     Edit: 27-Sep-02  |  05:16 PM   -   RE: Faith

Zazza

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Many religious historians believe that the death and resurrection legends were first associated with Attis, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. They were simply grafted onto stories of Jesus' life in order to make Christian theology more acceptable to Pagans.

formant: please just search for the origins of the christian beliefs in an open-minded way and remember that the Bible (New Testament) was written by a MAN, St Paul not God. And he did a pretty brutal rewrite on the source material as well.

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Message 94/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  05:58 PM   -   RE: Faith

formant

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"New pagan and wicca stuff? err.. actually christianty knicked most of it's celebrations from the OLD pagan and wicca stuff. "

that should have read neo-pagan sorry... wicca etc i just lump all the ancient comeback religions together. you know they actually had some folks worshiping baal here in town? :-)

yah i have read about the suppossed 'borrowing' from mithra, gnostisicm, etc etc etc. the list is very long. there are also scholarly rebuttals for all of them.

the jesus project or whatever its called keeps trying to find ways to say that jesus is not historical etc etc as well.

there is a whole counter culture out there that call themselves 'skeptics' who try and come up with new stuff all the time. all of it is easily rebutted. nothing new under the sun and all that :-)

btw, paul didn't start the religion even tho some protestants might think so (i am protestant btw) it was started by the 12 disciples and they are the ones who had interaction with jesus.

for you to go so far as saying that paul mangled what jesus said either means you haven't read what the man wrote or you read some book of someone of that opinion.

the attacks of the historical events surrounding the first century and the formation of christianity will never go away but they are grasps at straws at best.

really it all stems from the idea that a man could not be virgin born, and could not raise from the dead.

if anyone cares to disbelieve, they will of course go out of their way to find other 'evidence' of untruths that don't exist.

i have many other 'scientific' problems aside from the resurrection if i choose to go that route... there is the flood, creation, joshua's long day, the parting of the red sea etc etc. none of which is fully explainable by modern science. most modern christians decide to explain these away as myth. but if you do that you may as well say there is no resurrection. and if there is no resurrection, that person who is a christian should just go off and live as a hedonist because now is as good as it gets.

jamey

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Message 95/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  06:40 PM   -   RE: Faith

99devils

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But Jamey, you have to agree that from a purely logical and scientific viewpoint the vast majority of the Bible is as easily rebuffed as the theories of the skeptics.. Hell, there's enough doublespeak and contradiction in the Bible itself to invalidate most of it in logical argument without leaving its own pages. My point being, there is no more proof in the traditional sense that the resurrection happened as that it didn't. The concept of faith simply grows out of that - some choose to believe the accounts they are told (that Jesus was raised from the dead and born of a virgin), while some do not. Some choose not to form an opinion  

I don't really think though that any of this invalidates your position or mine, or anyone's. I suppose I believe that we've all got it wrong, but as long as you live a good and honest life doing minimal damage to the life around you it doesn't matter..

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Message 96/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  06:50 PM   -   RE: Faith

formant

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"some choose to believe the accounts they are told (that Jesus was raised from the dead and born of a virgin), while some do not."

right...

i guess my point was kind of like, if you choose to believe one point, you need to be consistant in your thinking across the board with it.

"enough doublespeak and contradiction in the Bible itself to invalidate most of it in logical argument without leaving its own pages."

um not really. but that would *have* to be another thread. most of the biblical "difficulties" aren't really so difficult. it is for the most part internally consistant. only if you go to outside 'scientific' logic does it become impossible.

but your point is valid about people choosing not to form an opinion. i think thats what most people do.

jamey

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Message 97/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  07:31 PM   -   RE: Faith

k

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listen.. jamey - you can't take someone seriously who admits that they lump other religions/beleifs together into easily dismissable groups.

"wicca etc i just lump all the ancient comeback religions together"

that shows you are ignorant, predjudiced and have no basis on which to formulate any valid opnion and that what you are saying is just predjudiced. - so predjudiced in fact that you feel it's FINE to dismiss everything else as 'that other stuff' -

Your ignorance is shown by stupid comments like calling those things 'comeback religions' as if they ever went away... as if they are some fad of the modern age??....

do you know WHY THOSE OTHER BELEIFS WENT UNDERGROUND?.. THATS RIGHT !!!.... COS YOUR LOT, THE FUCKING CHRISTIANS, CAME ROUND BURNING THOSE PEOPLE TO DEATH, STICKING STEEL SPIKES INTO THEM TO GET THEM TO 'CONFESS' TO NOT BEING WITH JESUS!!... RIPPING THEIR UNBORN BABIES OUT OF THEM AND IMPALING THEM ON SPIKES... RAPING THEIR CHILDREN AND WOMEN, CUTTING OFF THEIR HEADS AND PUTTING THEM UP ON SPIKES AS A WARNING TO OTHERS NOT TO DARE FOLLOW ANYTHING BUT JESUS, SKINNING THEM ALIVE, BURNING OUT THEIR EYES WITH RED-HOT STEEL BLADES...

shall i go on with WHY other peoples religion/beleifs/faiths in europe & beyond were forced underground??... (not to mention the genocide of whole cultures in several continents along with their beleifs)

Now little boy!... you walk off to your bed, and tonight you have fucking GOOD LONG THINK ABOUT IT!!....

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 98/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  07:45 PM   -   RE: Faith

formant

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so you think that state governments that endorsed christianity for their own means and gain are the same thing as true christianity?

your gripe is with state religion, not with the guy who said 'love your enemy, pray for those who persecute you'

lets not confuse the two things. state religion is nothing more than mans attempt to legitimize his killing, raping, and torture.

"can't take someone seriously who admits that they lump other religions/beleifs together into easily dismissable groups. "

i lump the neo pagan/wicca/newage stuff together. wouldn't put judiasm of islam in that category. there is also the secular humanist category.

human life is all about categorization K... its really not right to belittle me because i organize things into groups. don't you do the same? sure we all do...

i also understand that i cannot know the intricate depths of each of these religions just as your understanding of my religion is a historical caricture.

so lets get back to civil here, shouting and telling me to off does nothing for the discussion, much less persuade me to your point of view.

is the best method for convincing someone of something yelling and insults? thats a bit of a sophmoric approach on your part K sorry...

jamey

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Message 99/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  07:51 PM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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j- "the campbell stuff sounds nice but its #1 up above. just some guy stating that whatever anyone makes up is truth. "

But I give him credibility because of his scholarship. This guy knows humanity's stories, and all he's doing is correlating them. While there is interpretation of metaphor involved, from what I've read I agree with his interpretations just because they make sense logically. I believe in absolutes, and he IS trying to find them, and I think he's going about it right by studying the history and stories of man and finding common ground. That, to me, is more objective than a personal epiphany. Whether that makes it better is a moot point. You can either relate to what he says or it's a bunch of hooie.

I'm sorry his words are hollow to you, xoxos. But exactly what words aren't anymore?

I whole-heartedly agree that the experience should be of utmost priority, and thought comes after that. You can't "follow your bliss" by thinking about it... you just have to know. However, when one is raised in an environment where he thinks that what the senses record is "reality" (i.e. most of the western world) then sometimes it takes ideas (thoughts, mantras, what have you) to get the brain into doubting that reality. That's where I am now. I can't really say I've ever truly *experienced* anything in my life... I really feel rather numb at times to the world. How lucky to be someone like x who knows his experiences are true.

Sorry, xoxos, I'm not trying to come down on you here, you just amaze me with your negativity. I'm sure you were just like us "younguns" at some point in your life, and you would have hated someone condemning you for your spiritual search. It's like the assholes at college who gave me shit because I wanted to trip out all the time and they've "been there done that, no boomers for me thank you." I got such attitude, it's like "you WERE me 2 years ago... so stop fucking judging me!"

I see a parallel here? Or did you just come into the world knowing everything, x?

knowa - "there might be forces that are "beyond human perception or conception" but--by definition--we will never percieve or conceive of them."

I don't think anything is beyond human perception. Or tree perception or rock perception for that matter. I think if you could step back from this world you could experience and know it's all an illusion. I really don't think anyone's ever done that though. Maybe a few. Humanity has a long way to go. Good thing we've only been around for almost a cosmic blip.

psylichon

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Message 100/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  07:54 PM   -   RE: Faith

xoxos

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"if you choose to believe one point, you need to be consistant in your thinking across the board with it."

consistent :p

why? so it's easier to pointlessly pontificate about it on and on forever so that meaningless things seem important?

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