Original Message                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  05:37 AM   -   Faith

psylichon

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Persuant to another thread in another forum in another land...

I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)

I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.





Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.

I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.

And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.

This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?

Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...

Dave

p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...

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Message 81/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  10:44 AM     Edit: 27-Sep-02  |  10:46 AM   -   RE: Faith

Zazza

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Then said Almitra, "Speak to us of Love."

And he raised his head and looked upon the people, and there fell a stillness upon them. And with a great voice he said:

When love beckons to you follow him,

Though his ways are hard and steep.

And when his wings enfold you yield to him,

Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.

And when he speaks to you believe in him,

Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden.

For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning.

Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun,

So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth.

Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.

He threshes you to make you naked.

He sifts you to free you from your husks.

He grinds you to whiteness.

He kneads you until you are pliant;

And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast.

All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart.

But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,

Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,

Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.

Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.

Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;

For love is sufficient unto love.

When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, I am in the heart of God."

And think not you can direct the course of love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.

Love has no other desire but to fulfil itself.

But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:

To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.

To know the pain of too much tenderness.

To be wounded by your own understanding of love;

And to bleed willingly and joyfully.

To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving;

To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy;

To return home at eventide with gratitude;

And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips.

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Message 82/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  11:13 AM   -   RE: Faith

k

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*sniff*

 

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 83/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  02:14 PM   -   RE: Faith

xoxos

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i'm not going to read all that.

you see, that's the thing, imho. those joseph campbell quotes.. those thoughts would occur and pass thru my mind like water and be gone without a moment's hesitation.. but we've got this situation going on where bad motherfuckers are making their thoughts into comestibles and living off the profits.

i think it's a fucked up paradigm.. you curl up with a book and you're all comfy but what you're really doing is putting thoughts on a pedestal. "it's funny because it's true." that's why the brains of people are so pathetically useless, because they've been trained to look for thoughts in things instead of just having them, and when thye have one, they carry it around with them like 'ooh what a smashing thing' prohibiting the flow of other thoguhts that would naturally take it's place.

that joseph campbell book (which i found rather forgettable many years ago) is like a cheerleader.. no, i don't care to expand upon that statement. figure it out yourself.

i had to stop you here.. look back.. you made a proposition, discovered that a few people seemed to be aligned with said proposition, then went all merry about it and started repeating it over and over again like 'yay! i'm onto somethnig! look at me i'm onto something!' well cool.

if you focus on perceiving instead of deciding whether the quality of your perception is kosher, you'll probably go a lot farther with it.

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Message 84/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  02:35 PM     Edit: 27-Sep-02  |  02:41 PM   -   RE: Faith

Steve Roughley

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Doesn't anyone here enjoy perception without thought. I mean, it is fantastic to be able to think, it's a great gift. But our thoughts are limited. It's like listening to a track with lyrics. Lyrics are great, yes, but they distract you away from true experience. Whereas music without words is all down to your own experience of the music. Just shutting down thoughts and feeling is so much, well.. I can't really explain it. But I think most of you will get my point.

I am definitely a solipsist at heart. Because, at the end of the day, all one can say is that they are here. And that is not even a dead-cert. Thinking about religion, belief and existence just hurts my head. Thinking will never take us beyond toying with these ideas. What if we were brought up in a different kind of existence? What would we think of then? We will never know. It all seems a bit pointless to think about these things. "Ignorance is bliss", much over quoted but there is a stupid amount meaning in that.

It's like you build up your beliefs in something then life bites you in the ass and tears your beliefs to pieces. Leaving you worse off and with even more questions. Sorry, I am just ranting here. But I feel that we could all be so much more comfortable with life if we ignored thought to some extent. Don't ask "why am I dancing?" just dance. It makes more sense that way.

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 85/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  03:11 PM   -   RE: Faith

nomad

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'The universe simply IS, but it couldn't BE without some sort of creative force that I call GOD.'

why not? (or maybe more precisely, why do you call this God?)

i am thinking that we just may have fundamentally different perceptions. (that's probably a comfort to some of you :-)

x, i doubt even you are bitter enough to really wish that on someone else. but i do understand what you are getting at. i know i will never fully understand.

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Message 86/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  03:12 PM   -   RE: Faith

99devils

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Xoxos, you seem to assume that when people speak of something like God, that they feel it has some kind of power over their lives, or some kind of ability to change things, or even that it has a sense of good or evil. I don't think any of these things are true. I think it simply IS.

The conditions of human existance are the fault of humans alone, IMHO.

-Craig

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Message 87/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  03:47 PM   -   RE: Faith

formant

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so to completely pry xoxos, why *are* you such a bitter person?

you don't have to live that way at all. regardless of your religious beliefs or lack of them.

the campbell stuff sounds nice but its #1 up above. just some guy stating that whatever anyone makes up is truth.

i think if you believe in absolutes you will tend to like number 2... if you don't number 1 is more appealing.

for me, there is truth. it exists outside of our percieved realities. each one of us on this planet forms views of what things are and how they exist etc. the number of views are as numerous as there are people (maybe more if you count multiple personality disorder :-)

so if i think that gravity works upside down from what it does does that mean that the truth about gravity is changed? nope.

thats why its silly for me to think i can formulate my own ideas about god.

plus there is so much supernatural stuff out there... but just because something is supernatural doesn't make it good and doesn't make it god.

i am into creator worship and will take earnest looks at anyone in history who claims to have had interaction with the creator instead of created things in the supernatural realm. that is why the new pagan and wicca stuff have no appeal to me.

so i find this creator by learning about other folks who interacted with the creator. so i start praying.

praying is talking to god, right? well i have to say that it works.

once you start praying to the creator you will find that truth as established (not as percieved) starts to implant itself inside your very being.

once you know what the creator is like in an intimate personal way thru prayer its much easier to understand and accept writings that are ancient and may not seem to have much relevence today.

at the end of the day there are two goals most humans should have (in my opinion)...

A) satisfaction on earth
B) satisfaction in the afterlife

A is a bit hard to attain because external circumstances (such as xoxos suffering examples) put focus on things temporal instead of things eternal. but if you plug in so to speak with the being that created us all, even death becomes bearable, in others or ourselves.

B is equally hard to attain. if you can work out A in this life, B should follow as a logical extension.

there are some hard things about this life we all have to deal with. being more or less religious doesn't make the circumstances we live in change, but it will change the way we view them and respond to them.

here is the hardest thing to think about. nearly all religions believe in an afterlife (secular humanism is the only one that doesnt)

if thats the case, what is 70 years or so compared to eternity?

if the lights don't just turn off upon death, it doesnt matter. you may as well have spent your life in complete hedonism. but if life continues that means the 70ish years we all get here in this life are like the proton in an atom compared to the boundlessness of space.

jamey

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Message 88/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  03:50 PM   -   RE: Faith

formant

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"if the lights don't just turn off upon death"

should read

if the lights just turn off upon death

jamey

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Message 89/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  04:43 PM   -   RE: Faith

knowa

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truth is a property of statements about the world, not a property of the world itself(Wittgenstein).

there might be forces that are "beyond human perception or conception" but--by definition--we will never percieve or conceive of them.

people construct elaborate defenses against simple fact that nobody has any freaking idea why there is a world.

what in the world would a satisfying answer to the question "why is there a world?" look like?

a warm loving feeling in your chest?

I am all in favor of warm loving feelings in chests.

I have no idea what warm loving feelings in chests reveal about the nature of existence or the world, but they're certainly my favorite part.

isn't funny how the most bitter people are often the kindest?

and the most spiritual people always want to bomb Iraq?

PS please pray for me because there's lots of evidence that praying and being prayed for is good for people's health, but everytime I tried it it felt phony.

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Message 90/188                 Date: 27-Sep-02  @  04:52 PM   -   RE: Faith

xoxos

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"now i know some of you have brothers and sisters and friends that haven't turned to the lord yet, and now is the time to reach out to them. you see, with this upcoming election, we have a very special opportunity to elect a chairman who stands for all of us and who stands for the lord."

"we have been blessed this day with the chance to share the riches of the reservation with substantial ore deposits, so let's vote to make the world a better place for all our brothers and sisters across the globe and open up those land rights."

oh and we're sorry you can't fish in the river any more because it's fucked, but we have good jobs for you, which you can use to buy our good bleached and enriched food.

ya see i'm not trying to have someone tell me what i can and cannot do to mind my own business here. i'm not trying to have someone disempower my ability to nourish myself from the rock i was born on through land usage and property legislation. and i'm not trying to be punished for that.

i'm not even trying to go to the slammer because i felt like tending my garden without any clothes on. i'm not trying to go to jail to protect some prude for that!

but i'm glad you've got it all sorted out there, j. you've got the hook up!

hook up my fucken ass that is.

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