0  |  skin: 1 2 3  | Login | Join  | 

Audioindy.com

Mail discussion to a friend Search forums House rules Live chat Login to access your admin About 7161 forums Forum home New Topic

Forums   -   Mixing & FX

Subject: Why is digital less warm than....


Pages: 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 ... 16


Original Message                 Date: 28-Feb-02  @  09:02 PM   -   Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

Posts: 659

Link?:  Link
File?:  No file




Hey folks, just some food for thought...

We all hear things like, digital isn't as warm as analog, and while I'm not here to argue that specifically, did you ever think about why that is? Outside of some of the basic physical properties, you'd think the two mediums wouldn't be that divergent.... and in some sense, maybe they're not. Now I'm gonna try a little heresy...

Maybe the reason mixes from analog sounds warmer, more musical, whatever, is: our techniques for recording, mixing, etc., are mostly built and modeled on analog experience. We've learned techniques for, say mic placement, that were establised in the analog realm... maybe we should be evaluating new ways of doing things....?

I mean think about one of the most basic differences between the two mediums, the level meter... Many of us that came from the analog world were sorely surprised to find out we couldn't push the LEDs "past the red" on a digital board... Now once I learned how to use digital LEDs, mt life, and my mixes, sounded better...

I'm not really trying to lay out new "rules" of digital recording/mixing, but just bouncing the idea off you all. If you have any experience with what I'm on about here, by all means share it. If you got a "warm sound" from all digital equipment, what was your methodology? Why do you think it worked that way? If you captured a digital take of a vocalist that just simply shimmers, did you do it the "traditional" (i.e., basically as it's always been done on analog equipment) way, or did you find a technique that is exclusive to digital?

Anyhoos, just some thoughts....

Peace All



[ back to forum ]                           [quote]

Message 81/157                 Date: 13-Mar-02  @  10:35 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Brett B

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



I never did see Uberzone live. I was supposed to go but he is always at the big shows, and I prefer the smaller ones at the clubs were everyone is over 21. My freinds said he was great though. We do alot of leg work for our freinds as well to help their shows go properly. From getting the right gear for the show, or simply things like picking up the talent from the airport or dropping off flyers in another city if we happen to be going there. a Nice freind to have. He is plethora of information I bet. Is he still tracking through MOTU and mixing down in Cubase? The sound production on 2 Kool For Skool was out of this world. The Dynamics on his bass end is perfect. I wish I could get all those layers and still have that punch. This kind of brings this back to the subject of analog. Are there tubes in the recording chain of his synths?

I think T-Racks sounds Flabby and no vinatage plug-in I have used cuts it. I would love to get an avalon737 or even a direct box. Here is the inherant disadvantage to softsynths. You have to go out, to go analog tube route, then back to digital. An extra step! And not an eay one if you are trying to mixdown and not bounce all the synths to audio.
I was thinkning, (I know I shouldn't do that) about this: If i had a Dakota with 16 channels of adat, or even the Dakato and Monatana for 32 or what ever . I could write songs in Reason then go to a studio and run all the tracks through a big analog console and into Protools for mix down. You could bounce them all in one or two passes. Or, even just mixed with the console down to 2" or a masterlink etc. So there is professional portability to softsynths. Do we need to do it all in one machine? Can the sound be improved by mixing through a nice console instead of a software mixer? Is this necesasry for or cost effective for dance music? So how do we get that punch like Q does "..uberzone... drop the tone.." with what we have?
This is really how this thread started and we really haven't answered Mindspawns question yet.



[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 82/157                 Date: 26-Mar-02  @  12:53 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

milan

Posts: 5701

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



Brett, no offense, but you most of the time you sound like someone who swallowed a book on theory of engineering. i think you need to get out into the real world more often. you remind me of a guy with whom i´m engineering an album in a studio right now, who keeps on crying how the Mackie d8b doesnt sound like a Neve we used on one ocasion. so what, good music is good music, and more hit records are being produced on a pc running software nowadays, than in big studios running tons of focusrite and avalon gear. hell, i even mixed a rock band on a pc once, and in somenone´s bedroom at that, and when i took it into a pro studio it sounded quite ok and no one had any negative remarks concerning quality. its not what you use but how you use it. stop sweating the tubes mate!

so there. not that i dis you or anything Brett, just wanted to give you some advice on practicalities of recording and engineering music.

And now, a little tale of DIGITAL precision VS ANALOG warmth:

a friend of mine started working as assistant angineer in a small studio based around a digital HD recording setup. what happened was that the owner brought in an old Soundcraft mixer one day, hoping to get some of that undefinable 'analog warmth' on their recordings. now, this friend came to me saying how he feels that the quality of production has actually slightly declined since they started tracking and mixing thru the console, and that he feels that tracks have become more muddy and less defined. since i have used a similar mixer in the past i can vouch its not a bad mixer, and it doesnt relly fuck up your sound.

From what i gather, it seems to me that those guys were simply used to hearing their digital recordings which were clean and precise, and have hence regarded the additional analog stage as actually degrading the sound, in contrast to analog purists who feel that digital gear does that.

i dont know if i´m on a wrong track here, but people used to be like "get that digital thing out of my signal path, its degrading my sound", and now we get "get that analog thing out of my signal path, its degrading my sound". i find this quite amusing really! or maybe i´m just talking out me arse here?

Cheers, M.



[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 83/157                 Date: 26-Mar-02  @  12:53 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

Posts: 659

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



Nope, I think you got a good point, Milan. I think in general we're getting more used to "digital" sound. AND I think digital has gotten a bit better over the past couple of years in particular. So the two bits combined is making digital recordings a lot more appealing/enticing. Least that's my perspective.

Peace



[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 84/157                 Date: 27-Mar-02  @  06:26 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Pongoid

Posts: 2003

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



Flux, there are folks with ears that good. Guys, like Paul Solomons, and Ron Murphy; real serious mastering wizards. Think about it, that's ALL they do is sit around, and listen to stuff all day on the best gear money can buy.

Ape



[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 85/157                 Date: 27-Mar-02  @  06:47 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?:  Link

File?:  No file



I'm not questioning good ears, but it's a) ing pedantic, and b)somewhat arrogant and c)I just dont see how someone could say "yeah, that was a pultec, and that was an 1176" IN THE MIX

sure, on solo-ed individual sounds, maybe



[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 86/157                 Date: 28-Mar-02  @  02:35 AM     Edit: 28-Mar-02  |  03:42 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

k

Posts: 12353

Link?:  Link

File?:  No file



frankly, the whole industry is keyed to & zoomed into the is whole 'stats & levels' bollox to a overzealous degree imo - people talk too ften on hibrow forums in an almost clinical way, as if we were discussing technical measureing equipment for a lab... Over at SOS they had this thread runnning for ages about '24/96 is it better' - and it was like 'an atom width = a step in digital at xx resolution - the emphasis of the conversation like most of those on that subject was about the ability to capture a more 'real' sound, more accurate... I mentioned 'weighting' in terms of this 'supposed' accurate representation of the sound, & the fact most contemporary music only uses the last 10bd of dynamic range with a silent room having about 30db of background noise above theoritcal zero, and how did they think of all that?.. and the conversation died like a dead parrot...

Sure, everything has it's place, but I like the analogy with rock music sometimes... what is it about rock that I like?.. it's the energy... the power, when a full-on band lets rip and it's all humming... if in those circumstances one was to remove the drummer you'd hear all the kit drums resonating in sympathy with the guitar & bass cab frequencies, the snare wires buzzin' away like crazy etc.... that power for me does also arrive in dance music, especialy in a more lo-fi underground setting without 'the best' amps & cabs & where the speakers are really being driven hard... you get that 'hum'

to use an analogy, Templeman never got that sound with subsequent albums that he acheived with VH1

what was that?.... There was something in the 'live' setup they used to record... everything driven to hell with Eddie moving within the studio space to achieve harmonic feedbacks and overtones etc... and in dance it's the same... Initialy one is impressed with an all digital mix when it comes jumping from the speakers from dead silence with alot of dynamic range, but after a while it can be tiring because it lacks those empathic frequencies somehow... and i'm NOT talking about 'analog V digital' synths here.... the combination of frequencies results in the creation of sympathetic harmonic's in upper & lower registers which whilst not 'audible' in the strictest sense, (certainly not when masked by the overall mix), do contribute to the overall sound.

My personal thoughts on the whole subject is that in the end, it's that combination of the whole, the sum of the parts which is important, whereas with digital there is an over-emphasis sometimes on concentration on the individual components.

I dont care wether i can hear a part i wrote in the mix if the whole is 'humming' - in fact often this is the case, some parts dissapear completely in terms of 'being audible' as distinctly discerable parts... and you get an added phenomenon too - when you drive a mix really hard you start to hear 'ghost' parts... distinct pattern/melodies which appear in the mix created by the combination of the empathic working overtones... these ghost parts are distinct patterns/melodies which you have not actualy written, and bare No relation to any of the patterns you DID create - THAT is awesome!... new lines suggest themselves to you and the more you listen to a looped section, the more these 'ghost patterns' start to cry out until you can actual learn them and sequence them in!
- then you're REALLY rocking because those patterns will NEVER be something you'd actualy think of, they are created by the track!! - and when you hear them, they are so harmonious with the whole but in totaly unexpected ways! - very odd phenomenon that is.


if the whole is working all in sypathy as a total empathy, to me this sounds ideal... and i find this happens more organicaly with analog boards... This is especialy true with mixing, and the bane of the commercial studio engineers life is those blasted bands who all vy with each other at mixtime to 'hear' their own parts... At that point, the band ceases to be 'a band' and turns into a monster of vying ego's, each listeing soley to their own part played and wishing it to be discernable & distinctly audible, often and usualy to the detriment of the entire mix.. I've seen countless excellent tracks ruined this way at mixdown time.

I think in that situation they are trying to perceive the parts as it is when they are actualy playing them... at that time one does hear ones own part sometimes in seperation, but this I think is a psycho-acoutic phenomenon - i think as one plays, one knows what one is playing, and a person THINKS they can hear it clearer and more distinctly than it actualy is appearing to the casual listener, this I think is because they are psychologicaly fooled into thinking their part is more distinct & seperate because they are also 'hearing it' in their conciousness of recollection, & recognition of what they are playing.

Anyways, hands on with analog boards does have alot to be said for it, if nothing else, the ability to sum signals on a molecular level rather than as a collection of stepped digital signals mebbe... I think the resulting empathy of the collectivising whole is enhanced somehow that way.

On the other hand while imo you CANNOT beat a 1" 8 track with no NR for bass sounds for example, digital can be wonderful added into an analog mix, for vocals especialy, & other tracked instruments, and the ability to copy & paste constructions & remixes and alternative arrangements is great if you ever had to edit with a blade & block !! - add that to into an analog board and you're in heaven!.

However, that ability to always change things creates new problems, because it encourages people NEVER to make any descisions!!!- everything is left open ended which in itself can be rubbish... you NEED to make descisions about the sounds and the structure, because a sound will effect the other sounds added to it and within which it is set SO MUCH... change it and the whole thing is different... so that's worth thinking about VERY much... if a mix is humming, change your kickdrum sound and the whole mix can go to fuck because that empathic relationship WAS there, between the kik and the synthline, even tho you might not think it was because they don't even live in the same frequency range!

heh heh - Honestly, if i had my own recording school I think i'd give the students a simul-sync 1/2-track and a 2 channel mixer or 2 rows/modules of 4 band decent eq and that's ALL they'd use for the first year.... making 4, 8, 16 & 24 track mixes in mono by layering bounces from left to right track... Then they could move on to the next stage, and if they didnt like it they could fuck off and go to SAE heh heh  



You could sorta fit that perfectly into that old Sufi story about the kid wanting to learn alchemy... how to make gold from base metal

The kid goes to learn recording & production with some 'ye olde arcane' engineer... every day he's pestering & asking about when is he going to get to use the protools and the top end analog & digital gear in the huge main studio, but the old boy just refuses & keeps him recording production multitracked bounced-layered mixes in mono with a two-track, a 2 channel eq and no fx at all....

One day after alot of time has passed the old boy goes to the kid and says;

"ok... I think today you can finaly go and work in the big studio with the neve automation & pro-tools & all the rest of the top-end fancy kit"

and the kid, without even looking up from his mix says..... "er... not now, I'm busy"

ha ha ha

aight!!

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 87/157                 Date: 28-Mar-02  @  02:48 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

k

Posts: 12353

Link?:  Link

File?:  No file



re: Pongoids comments, I would suggest a ww petition is started to make it LEGALY an obligation for bands or artists to NOT be allowed to say they are LIVE in promtional material, posters ansd concert tickets if miming is happening (Brittany Spears for example)

they should LEGALY be forced to call these shows something else entirely under the trades description act - My brother took his kid to see Brittany... she flipped and fell over during a number... and yes.. the vocal carried on regardless  

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 88/157                 Date: 28-Mar-02  @  02:52 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

k

Posts: 12353

Link?:  Link

File?:  No file



and yo yo Brett - pro-Tools do finance plans! - and they do second-user systems.

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 89/157                 Date: 28-Mar-02  @  03:35 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

Posts: 659

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



Good stuff, K. Really brings together a lot that's been said in this thread. I'm totally in agreement about Ghost melodies/frequencies, and so on.

Me and some of me dark ambient cronies have talked about the "ghosts" a lot. A lot of dark ambient is in the real low end, and there was some discussion as to whether or not frequencies below 20hz (since that's the usual low end threshold for most CD players) needed to be included at all. Well, all you have to do is try cutting those frequencies out and you can instantly hear the difference in the sound. There's a couple of reasons why we thought this might be:

First, CD players, as well as most playback devices have a stated frequency response range (usually 20hz to 20khz). That's the range that the equipment will play back "accurately" (in a perfect world...), it doesn't mean those other frequencies won't be heard at all, but you might not hear them "correctly."

Second, even if you can't hear the frequencies in question, they still modify the other sounds in a track, they still add harmonics, etc., etc. You cannot EQ ANY frequency in a track without affecting all the others to some degree or other, hence removing said frequencies HAVE to affect what's left.

Anyhoos, methinks the "ghosts" are some of the coolest parts of sound. With the dark ambient stuff, it's not uncommon at all to "hear" something that wasn't put in to a track. The "talking" synths phenomena is one of my favorites... that is, you have a track that is solely synth based, and yet you hear what sounds like words or phrases in there... very cool stuff.... same applies to any style of music really....

Peace



[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 90/157                 Date: 28-Mar-02  @  03:39 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

Posts: 659

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



And I'll be happy to sign the petition about what is required to call yersef a "live" act. That's what gets me goat the most (aside from being called a DJ, but that's generally just due to ignorance...). Actually, this would be a good thread in it's own right....


Peace



[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Pages: 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 ... 16

There are 157 total messages for this topic





Reply to Thread

You need to register/login to use the forum.

Click here  to Signup or Login !

[you'll be brought right back to this point after signing up]



Back to Forum