Original Message                 Date: 28-Feb-02  @  09:02 PM   -   Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

Posts: 659

Link?:  Link
File?:  No file

Hey folks, just some food for thought...

We all hear things like, digital isn't as warm as analog, and while I'm not here to argue that specifically, did you ever think about why that is? Outside of some of the basic physical properties, you'd think the two mediums wouldn't be that divergent.... and in some sense, maybe they're not. Now I'm gonna try a little heresy...

Maybe the reason mixes from analog sounds warmer, more musical, whatever, is: our techniques for recording, mixing, etc., are mostly built and modeled on analog experience. We've learned techniques for, say mic placement, that were establised in the analog realm... maybe we should be evaluating new ways of doing things....?

I mean think about one of the most basic differences between the two mediums, the level meter... Many of us that came from the analog world were sorely surprised to find out we couldn't push the LEDs "past the red" on a digital board... Now once I learned how to use digital LEDs, mt life, and my mixes, sounded better...

I'm not really trying to lay out new "rules" of digital recording/mixing, but just bouncing the idea off you all. If you have any experience with what I'm on about here, by all means share it. If you got a "warm sound" from all digital equipment, what was your methodology? Why do you think it worked that way? If you captured a digital take of a vocalist that just simply shimmers, did you do it the "traditional" (i.e., basically as it's always been done on analog equipment) way, or did you find a technique that is exclusive to digital?

Anyhoos, just some thoughts....

Peace All

[ back to forum ]                           [quote]

Message 61/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  03:36 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?:  Link

File?:  No file

awwwww. crackhead

mindspawn..I STILL say bullshit until I see it

you are telling me that these guys listened to FINAL mixes and could name all the gear used? or just the mastering?

even if it were just the mastering processors..Id STILL have to see it to believe it. I mean...someone TESTED them?

I find that so hard to believe

ahhh, but Brett could probably do it 

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 62/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  06:11 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Brett B

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

actaully, i agree with you on that. It is impossible to tell processors used on an overall mix in my opinion. I would have to see someone do it. If you gave them a choice of three comps and a soloed demo, maybe some could do it pretty accuratly. By the time the mastering engineer is done eq'in and compressing and dithering down to 16bit it's all a slightly differnt sound anyway. i am sure ther are plenty of processors out there tha thave a cetain color, and god knows synths do have that character. but really what is the diferance between a digitally recorded tone from and anlog being used to play a not or an analog tone coming out of a synth , if they are both un modulated and filtered and both end on disk.
So , if the preset is done right you shouldn't be able to tell the riff is coming from a sampler and not the original tone generator. So many of the old timers are using new gear to do the old sounds. Nord electro, and even Reaktor on a laptop. I read this article where this one guy was using the pro-52 over his prophet 5 because it was so authentic, but offer more flexability. I see "q" using a virus and a jp-8000 live instead of trying to lug a jupiter around. The new analog modeling adds that randomness to the sinal that makes analog funkier than a pcm based sound. I think vinatage analog is going to slowly become a novelty and colector item.
Most of those 80's analog sysnths became discontinued because the parts were becoming hard to get and really expensive, like the emu sp-1200 filter chips etc. and the digital route looked cheaper and more eficient for companies in the 80's, and with CD being the new wave. The digital mind set was in. DX-synths, and the wavestation(originally the sequential cirtuits prophetv I think). Wave table and pcm was what pop musicains wanted. And then when we got there everyone started looking back and thinking these synths suck. we have no knobs, no warmth in our bass.
I like the diversity of the synth market today. You really can get a synth for any flavor on a decent budget thanks to anaolg modeling technolgy and hihger bit digital pcm playback and filters. the software is the true music chnaging device, recycle, and the ability to edit and process stuff with such detail and speed. Can yu imagin trying to edit a song and loops on tape with a razor?

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 63/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  09:39 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

Posts: 659

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

Influx/Brett - They were picking out a variety of the gear used, not all by any means, but enough that it impressed the shit out of me.... And no, I dunna think you could call it anything like a formal testing atmosphere, more like someone comes in with a mix, the guy listens to it and says "so you used an M1 and Langevin on the vox, eh?" Or something similar... I've heard them miss it too, but honestly, more often than not these old farts could name amps, reverbs, compressors, etc., again, not all, but enough to make you raise an eyebrow.... Like I said, they were all mastering engineers with some decent credits and years of experience.... Doesn't really surprise me that they'd be able to pick stuff out.

And Brett, I have edited songs on tape with a razor... actually I did this as recently as September of 2000...

Peace

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 64/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  09:54 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

e.t.

Posts: 6

Link?:  Link

File?:  No file

I have a problem watching movies with fake digital scenes and animation..what a crappy illusion!

Digital is an illusion.

It's gets worse when I watch and see this personally more often...it completely takes the realness and warmness away. It does! except that movies animation um.. "final phantasy".

I suppose i was trying to create a visual idea on digital here..as in relitive terms against music..especially dance stuff. Maybe there is an exception.

But for me...i notice to many computer music makers missing the point on how music should be created.. after listening to loads of records..i can pick out the overall digtal quality of a track...its more of what it represents to me than what is used...something like this...Just a continuing process. awh what the hell is become what it is,.. .

Remeber analog is continous..digital is not..HUmans run on rhthms biologically in nature etc..digital does not yet.. hehe peace

eric

4:51a.m. bedtime!

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 65/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  10:18 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Brett B

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

editing on tape, damn.....I used try and fix my busted cassetes. I wouldn't want to do it. i know what you mean about the amps. Just listening to K talk about bass pickups and cabinets and you start to realixe how diferant they abviously are,and even mics color a vocal a diferant way but compression and reverb? They are a little hard i would say. You can spot an old oberheim or a moog in a song and tell a whilitzer from a Leslie, etc. But signal processesors i would have to see them get that unless they were just guessing right because it's a standard. I mean i heard a guys music once and ask," what did you use acid? "and he was like "damn, how did you know?" It was all loop based. Just a guess because that is a commonly used loop based software.

But hey in ten years we'll have 32/384 and so on until we sample billions of times per second and playback music in our head with a chip so the monitors don't color the sound. pure music digitally deliverd from the artist to your brain.

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 66/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  12:00 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?:  Link

File?:  No file

"I see "q" using a virus and a jp-8000 live instead of trying to lug a jupiter around"


REALLY. virus, eh?

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 67/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  04:11 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Brett B

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file

yup a virus, and of coarse a 303 synced to a 909 going with a laptop , sorry a jp-2080 or 8080(rack version of the 8000) and a virus, plus a emu-e4 for trigering loops made from the jupiters and his pro-one.

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 68/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  06:29 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

bedwyr

Posts: 2890

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

"tell a whilitzer from a Leslie"

what are you on about?

wurlitzer is a rhodes type of electric piano, imo with a much nicer sound.

a leslie is a revovling speaker. i think even i would be able to tell the difference between a piano and a revolving speaker. on a good day.

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 69/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  09:04 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?:  Link

File?:  No file

wait...Brett...a VIRUS? the one made by access?

you sure your eyes arent bad? That is quite interesting because"

"Subj: Re: hey
Date: 3/12/02 12:54:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: uberzone@*******(uberzone)
To: Nflux1@aol.com


did you ever take a VIRUS on any shows with you?
Dave

no, but I caught many a virus at shows....."

musta been some other guy named Q

[ back to forum ]               [quote]

Message 70/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  09:27 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

Posts: 659

Link?: Link

File?:  No file

Okay, I'm not gonna waste time trying to convince you ninnys =) that people who have made their life's work by listening and working with gear actually have a high enough degree of perception in these areas to pick out particular pieces of gear... What I witnessed, well maybe it was all guesses, but if it was there were a lot of consistently accurate guesses, and it wasn't like they were just showing off (or maybe they were), it was stuff that just got mentioned in the course of listening to mixes (like: "you can hear where they bring in that Rane EQ. hear the slightly nasal tone around 35khz...?" or similar - course I'd sit and nod my head like I could actually hear what they were talking about)... nuff said on this. If you wanna think me a liar or easily fooled, so be it... no worries....

Peas

[ back to forum ]               [quote]