Original Message                 Date: 28-Feb-02  @  09:02 PM   -   Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

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Hey folks, just some food for thought...

We all hear things like, digital isn't as warm as analog, and while I'm not here to argue that specifically, did you ever think about why that is? Outside of some of the basic physical properties, you'd think the two mediums wouldn't be that divergent.... and in some sense, maybe they're not. Now I'm gonna try a little heresy...

Maybe the reason mixes from analog sounds warmer, more musical, whatever, is: our techniques for recording, mixing, etc., are mostly built and modeled on analog experience. We've learned techniques for, say mic placement, that were establised in the analog realm... maybe we should be evaluating new ways of doing things....?

I mean think about one of the most basic differences between the two mediums, the level meter... Many of us that came from the analog world were sorely surprised to find out we couldn't push the LEDs "past the red" on a digital board... Now once I learned how to use digital LEDs, mt life, and my mixes, sounded better...

I'm not really trying to lay out new "rules" of digital recording/mixing, but just bouncing the idea off you all. If you have any experience with what I'm on about here, by all means share it. If you got a "warm sound" from all digital equipment, what was your methodology? Why do you think it worked that way? If you captured a digital take of a vocalist that just simply shimmers, did you do it the "traditional" (i.e., basically as it's always been done on analog equipment) way, or did you find a technique that is exclusive to digital?

Anyhoos, just some thoughts....

Peace All

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Message 51/157                 Date: 11-Mar-02  @  01:03 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

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Well, the main point is that you get the sound yer after, not how it gets done. That simply wasn't enuff of an answer for the budding studio jocks I've been talking at....

It's a lot like the analog vs digital synth debate, most times such arguments are started by folk claiming digital is just as good, and it's pretty much impossible to tell in a good mix anyway... Well, digital IS just as good, if you add in the flexibility of saving patches, MIDI control, etc., etc. But if you simply compare an analog SH101 with ANY of Rolands sampled SH101 ROM sounds found on their MC or XP line, you can instantly tell a difference in the sound. My own like for analogs doesn't really come from a sound preference though, in a mix I really can't tell much difference either. What I like about the analogs is their built in frequecy spectrum (or, as Pongoid pointed out, maybe it's the lack of frequency...). I spend a lot less time fattening up the sound, whether I do it with synthesis or EQ, when I use analog based gear over digital... in effect, I'm a lazy MF that prefers to have the sound be right from the get go... less work for me...=)

Now why is it that I think analog is easier? Well, I'm certain there's a good scientific reason, but mostly it has to do with the popularity of analog type sound. If I wasn't going after that sound, I wouldn't bother trying to make it sound like analog... Hence, if yer after analog, use analog. it's just easier... what a fugging concept, eh?

What I do find funny is when some folk get their first piece of analog gear, and then they sell it after a month cos "it was too hard to get the right sound with it..." No shit... can't just dial up Trance Lead 004 or whatnot, eh?

That's also somethin' that gets me about folks starin' out that are ready to drop a couple of grand on their first bits of gear. Most of 'em generally get one decent multi synth/workstation and maybe an FX unit or two.... Why? I mean there's nothing wrong with these boxes, they do what they're made to do.... But for the same amount of money you could get a DX box, an SH101 (or even two), a Juno of some sort, and say a decent drumbox like a Jomox or sumpin. Hell you could probably even afford a real 909 if you shopped about.... add in a couple compressors and cheap multi FX bits, and for around the same price you got a pretty well fleshed all "all-analog" kit.... Then you got that "analog sound" by default... It still dunna mean you can make a track that will get folks to shake their booty, but if yer after analog sound, why not get it from analog gear? Seems like that concept gets missed by a lot of people.... Should be obvious you'd think... hmmmm gettin' old and out of touch I guess...

Peace All

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Message 52/157                 Date: 11-Mar-02  @  04:54 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Brett B

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Guilty as charged, but I got the hang of my gear after a while. i got sick of having a good sound then adding other synths and it all being out of tune. And triggering using cv is sol slopy the notes drop and don't always sustain like they should or one triggers late and i notice it. I still keep my anologs for doing certain things. They just have a quirkyness that is all analog, but I can mutli-sample a synth and make a riff and I gareentee an analog guru couldn't tell. It may sound diferant than the original when going through the filters etc, but none the less you would have to have the sounds a/b to tell. The one thing that keeps me from using sampled bass though is the pop on attach I get when using them in mono. It's like the truncating of the other note when laggato is played doesn't crossfade well or cuts at a nonzero crossing. But well planned presets can sound so authentic when using the right sampler. Those roland presets may have 2-3 samples for the entire program and the filters are so harsh and alaising. I sample every 3rd on my emu and the filters sound so much like my mks-80. Future sound of london uses emu's for almost all the tracks. They make presets for their samplers from other peoples analogs. Depechmode did the same thing using esi's.
I love didital and I am not going back.

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Message 53/157                 Date: 11-Mar-02  @  11:15 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

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Whoa, whoa, whoa.... Hope I didn't leave the wrong impression. I like digital, too. As I said, I'm lazy and it's nice being able to save patches, use MIDI, etc., etc. But if I want an analog sound, I just think you may as well use analog gear. I am not all that concerned with an analog sound in me own trax. I mean I own a couple of analog bits and that's it. Most of my rig is digital. From a live playing standpoint, it's just waaaaay easier to use digital stuff. My studio trax tends to be an outgrowth of me live bits, so I don't really sound all that analog... nor am I terribly concerend with "sounding analog" so it's moot for me... If I do want say, an anlog bass sound, I use my old DSS-1, or I borrow my friend's SH101, etc...

As for an analog guru telling the difference, I dunno. You might be surprised. Different vein of things, but I've heard engineers talk about what preamp, amp, mic, compressor, etc., someone used, just from listening to the finished mix, so I suspect someone with enough knowledge of analog synths could also tell if something wasn't analog, especially in a non-mixed a/b setup...

Just some thoughts....

Peace

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Message 54/157                 Date: 11-Mar-02  @  11:48 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

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I should also add, while an "analog guru" might be able to tell the difference, I doubt most folks on the dance floor could, and I really doubt the folks shaking their booty would care either...

Hell, ya know, times are changing (they always are), so just because analog dominated in the past doth not mean it will always be so. There will, methinks, always be a place for analog gear, in the same way there'll always be a place for a real piano, guitar, etc....

I'd just like to have a "vocalist in a box." If I could just replace those critters with a good multi-box, I'd be much happier...=)

Peace

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Message 55/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  12:04 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

bedwyr

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hahaha! yeah, they're the only ones left! at least you didn't have to massage a drummer's ego. ;)

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Message 56/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  12:29 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

influx

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you dont?

"heard engineers talk about what preamp, amp, mic, compressor, etc., someone used, just from listening to the finished mix"

BULLSHIT. I find that impossible to believe. I am pretty much convinced that anyone who tries that is just plain full of shit

maybe in 1958, but NOW? no fucking way.

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Message 57/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  12:55 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Brett B

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you should listen to an older track that I did on my page titled "desolation' all my emu for the most part made from presets i made from sampling my 101, juno and even rebirth to make the 303 line that comes in on the break. It sounds damn analog to me. It even has that buzzyness whining sound when treeking the filter. Emu's filters are so smooth. Even the low end is the smapler. It was an experiment and it supports what I have been saying. I can post up some other side by side examples and they are identical from the original to the sampler. Only the filter or modulation is diferant. I am not taking you the wrong way, i am just am firm believer in sampling when it is done right. Hell do you want to lug all that to a gig either. so you invest in the sampler and the analog for it's tones. Then start sampling and then use the versatility of the midi. If I had to do it all over, i would have droped my money on a massive sampler, and then one fine vinatge piece of kit like a juipiter 4 or a modualr. Then just go to town making presets and if it's an emu, you already have a 48 track seqencer to work with. when ready just go into a studio and rent a couple of cheap late night hours, and bounce down to adat through some real tubes. this is the way All the old timers like William Orbit and Norman Cook always did it this way. Using 3-5 Akia 900's and Atari cubase. Get yourself an emu e3, a 909, and an esi or the likes for other acoustic stuff. Sure computers are powerful enough now, but then they could'nt do shit, and I blew all kinds of money on gear and had no way to make it all work together. i bought a VS880, a ,mc-303, a bass station, a cs1x , a 101, , and a juno 106 and a P1 90mghz pc to sequence and only 1 port of midi. I was screwed and really used one device or the other. The cs1x hoged a port, and so did the mc-303 and then I did'nt have a way to bring it all together, until cubase 3.5 came along, and buy then realized the mc-303 was a toy, and so was the cs1x. And the vs880 was the biggest mistake I ever made. If I had just bought an old jupiter 4 and an emu4. I could have put together some nice music all inside the emu. But when you are new you don't know any better and you get cought up in the hype and follow the crowd. "MC-303 like the real 303, cool."
Had it a week and was like "this aint a 303". And my bass station sounded nothing like a 303 and I didn't know how to sequence it to emulate one. So I started realizing i should have just bought a sampler, i could have sampled rebirth like I ended up doing much later on which yeilds some pretty authentic lines when you sequence right using velocity for accent and slides. I have digressed here but I am totally in agreement, that if you want a sound go and buy that not an imitation, and if you are entering in new , a good workstation can't be beat. Even if i had bought a trinity with the sampler I would have gotten further in my production. This is why i recomend Reason to newbies as it gives them all kinds of sounds in one central workstation to develop there skills and then later they can add to the complexity when they add Cubase through Rewrie and midi gear. I think everyone will be amazed to hear the two new tracks i have done in Reason. I do have all my other gear back on line now as well, so i may play with the juno, mks 80, or even my syntechno, but the meat and potatoes will be reason and Halion. Just Orange Vocoder too, so my digitech might get jealouse. see you guys tomorow. I am taking hte night off. i have been doing to much music and my sleep is all out of whack.

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Message 58/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  01:24 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

influx

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Brett, some advice:

1)get off the meth

2)hit RETURN every once in a while?

believe it or not but I read what you type (notice I havent said SHIT about your horrible spelling in a while) but...ever heard of a run-on sentence, or PARAGRAPH even?

sheesh

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Message 59/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  02:21 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

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Influx - you may say "bullshit" but I watched it happen different times. Teddy Johnson at The Attic studio in Springfield, Less Davies at Bristol, and Mark "something or other" at Fort Apache. Very spooky and very inspiring. These guys are really that good at hearing the differences and they really know the gear. Also, it might be worth mentioning that all of 'em are over 50, and all of 'em are/or were mastering engineers (both Teddy J and Less Davies -Davis? - are dead now). But it's not just hype... leastways, if it was, they fooled me... not that it would be that hard to fool me, I'm a fairly gullible sort of guy...=)

Brett - uh, I think I agree with what you're saying, at least in concept... course I may have missed the point... In any case, I would say an analog or two and a sampler or two, would certainly sort a lot of folk who want an analog sound. It's what I do for me live stuff that I want to be "analogish." Sure beats the hell out of trying to transport the DSS and what not...

Peace

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Message 60/157                 Date: 12-Mar-02  @  02:33 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Brett B

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Influx you can off. This isn't a formal arena. If You don't like the poor typing skills don't read my threads anymore.

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