Original Message                 Date: 26-Jul-03  @  06:01 PM   -   RIAA wants you!

beds

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^ look

* if i remember correctly, in the first three months of this year music sales increased in the uk.

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Message 41/116                 Date: 04-Aug-03  @  10:06 PM     Edit: 04-Aug-03  |  10:28 PM   -   RE: RIAA wants you!

Mick

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Does that include the design, screens, printing, packing, shipping & storage? Besides, there are other things to consider such as the cost of touring that isn't covered by ticket sales. The profit derived from the shirts isn't just about the cost of the shirts - it all goes into the pool. Lodging at livable accommodations is probably about $75.00 per night for everyone on the tour. Sure you can find cheaper accommodations but I don't see the need for people to stay at a flea bag crack motel for months on end.

Nor do I see the need for people who have paid their fair dues to be crammed into a minivan for hours on end. That doesn't mean I think they need a huge tour bus but an RV still isn't cheap to rent or to purchase and maintain. After a certain number of years and at a certain age, damn. Show a little love. After a certain point in an artists career they deserve a little more.

Another thing to consider is that these people must provide their own insurance and retirement. The only reason I have decent insurance and any type of retirement is because of my union and I've seen how much it cost when I didn't get enough gigs to cover my days for eligibility - I had to lose it. For that matter union dues aren't cheap nor are the benefits that have to be paid for any sidepeople if they are union and playing in union halls.

Just because someone chooses to be an artist doesn't make them immune to the same needs as everyone one else and if they are to make a living at it there are real world issues that must be addressed. The "suffering artist" thing is as much an overly romanticized illusion as the "rock star" thing.

Suffering for "art" is for amateurs and when your "art" costs $15.00 for the general public to experience it becomes, for better or worse, business. When its time to hit the road and make a living as a performer money must change hands. If one isn't savvy enough to insure enough money is changing hands to make a reasonable profit that takes business concerns and one's future into consideration one won't be performing anywhere other than one's garage, living room, or porch after too long.

I also don't really have a problem with an artist setting their prices at a level that the market will bear because they are getting the money not a huge corporation whose experience in the music amounts to supplying gin and vodka to clubs. If an audience feels the price is unfair or that the gains are put to ill use then they won't support the artist.

In the end it is no longer about going to see a show it is, literally, about supporting the artist. That doesn't mean being the loudest one at the show's encore. That means that, you, the concert goer are buying them their house. You are paying for their kids to be raised outside of poverty. You are paying for their family's food and clothing, for their kids to spend summer at the grandparent's, their kids' college tuition. You're paying them to invest the money that you give them wisely so they can be successful enough to keep you entertained for as long as they wish and for as long as there is an audience for them. THAT is what supporting an independent artist is about.

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Message 42/116                 Date: 04-Aug-03  @  10:24 PM   -   RE: RIAA wants you!

errata

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I think with artists like Ani it's the desire to live like a rock star but work as an independent.

We have this ugly notion in our culture that success is measured in money. You and I wouldn't know Ani's name (well, my girlfriends a recovering lesbian, feminist, alterna-chick.. so maybe I would) if it wasn't for her success. And, "Why shouldn't she live by the same standard as other artists appearing on rolling stone?"

It's obscene that these artist's rattle on about the inequities of the industry, andthen work and play by it's rules. One sees the devil and Miss DeFranco in a dark room glaring at each other over a table... the devil says, "You and I are ONE, ANI! You sing the song of independence, but you suck from the tit of MY machine!"

OK, that's a little dramatic, but it's true. And here we rag on about the freedom of underground parties and how disconnected form the industry it all is... but I've never EVER met a promoter that could afford to keep promoting who was in it for the scene and not the money. And about 7 of 10 shows I've had to argue about, and fight for the money I was promised at a gig! So there you go!

There are a lot of truely disengaged scenes of merit out there... but they are mostly populated by those who've chosen to remove themselves COMPLETELY, or those who have day jobs!

Pongoid's friends at AMF come to mind as an example of how it COULD be done, if we'd all just get over ourselves... and our greed/complacency!

e

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Message 43/116                 Date: 04-Aug-03  @  11:24 PM   -   RE: RIAA wants you!

Influx

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sorry mick but youre comin from the standpoint that artists deserve to make a living solely off their art, whatever format it is presented in, and I say bullshit

at the same time, Im not saying they should starve either, and since there is a viable market, there's no reason not to take part in it, but...no..dude...youre not gonna convince me that a $25 t-shirt (and, actually..the number I quoted was a bit HIGH, to factor in shipping, artwork and layout, etc) or a $7 sticker, or a $21 CD is justifiable.

and WHO THE FUCK IS GOING TO SUPPORT ME, then? eh? the argument youre presenting is as tho Im supposed to send Ani's kids to college?

wtf is that shit, man?

fact is, expectations are too high. ANYONE can fucking live off say $40k a year, actually way less really, if they just trim the fat a bit. Yes, concerts are expensive...

honestly, man...youre surprising me...you seem so anti-commercialism (simply for its own sake) most of the time, and yet, simply because someone tags themselves as independent, and then insists on operating at the same level as the norm, you defend them?

fuck..what was this thread about anyway? oh..the RIAA.

fact is, the whole fucking thing is a bloated bullshit scam. A paradigm was set when recorded music first became a commodity, and its gone straight down hill ever since.

I agree, an artist should be able to market their wares, no doubt, but if youre gonna claim to be bucking the system then DO IT. Charge LESS for things. Trim the fat, drastically if necessary. Got 2 cars? sell one. Got 15 keyboards? sell TEN. Booking time on an SSL? Find a cheaper studio.

its not that hard

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Message 44/116                 Date: 04-Aug-03  @  11:32 PM   -   RE: RIAA wants you!

PB

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well... the second the shirt start costing more than what the product should be about (the music/the cd) is the second it steps across the border. I'm not gonna buy a cd if its 21 bucks! Because the artist is indie they should take advantage that the rec companies aren't taking their money and make music more accessable.

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Message 45/116                 Date: 04-Aug-03  @  11:36 PM   -   RE: RIAA wants you!

Influx

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"In the end it is no longer about going to see a show it is, literally, about supporting the artist. That doesn't mean being the loudest one at the show's encore. That means that, you, the concert goer are buying them their house. You are paying for their kids to be raised outside of poverty. You are paying for their family's food and clothing, for their kids to spend summer at the grandparent's, their kids' college tuition. You're paying them to invest the money that you give them wisely so they can be successful enough to keep you entertained for as long as they wish and for as long as there is an audience for them. THAT is what supporting an independent artist is about. "

Mick, man..Im sorry but I just dont agree with this.

what if they feel that they need to live in a 10br 3500sf compound? drive BMW instead of hondas? send their kids to harvard instead of a state school?

Im supposed to pay for that because I dig their tunes? bulllllshit

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Message 46/116                 Date: 05-Aug-03  @  04:50 AM   -   RE: RIAA wants you!

Mick

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"If an audience feels the price is unfair or that the gains are put to ill use then they won't support the artist."

I hate having to repeat myself.  

I don't want to sound condescending but maybe its something that one learns with age. That $40,000 a year needs to be profit and it needs to be consistant. Freelancing means that one year you may make 80,000 - 100,000 or more one year then be lucky to clear 10,000 the next year or the following one. THAT'S the reality. If you work for someone else, if you have never freelanced and had to (or like a fool never bothered to) look into purchasing your own insurance plan (a decent one that includes comprehensive preventative health care) then you don't know what's up. When you're 70, the SSA is bankrupt, you never could afford a 401k (or whatever), and you health is failing because you could never afford decent insurance and now no one will touch you is the wrong time to figure it out. Think beyond the immediate or grow old and die like a stray dog. I've watched someone close to me die a horrible, humiliating, death for want of decent preventative health care so I've seen it first hand.

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Message 47/116                 Date: 05-Aug-03  @  05:38 AM   -   RE: RIAA wants you!

Influx

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and this has what to do with what?

Im fucking self employed dude. have been for 5 years now.

yes, you do sound condescending;)

$40k a year PROFIT?!?!?1 are you fucking KIDDING ME?!?!?!

man...mick...you live on a different planet. sucks something bad happened to someone you know but bad things happen to millions of people every single day, and the majority of it has to do with profiteering

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Message 48/116                 Date: 05-Aug-03  @  06:22 AM   -   RE: RIAA wants you!

psylichon

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How much does it cost to live healthily, exactly?

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Message 49/116                 Date: 05-Aug-03  @  07:38 AM   -   RE: RIAA wants you!

errata

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so, Mick... it's "Grow the hell up, and stop being so idealistic!" eh?

Funny, here we were bashing on the proftieering, greed and ME ME ME bullsh+t and you come riding in telling us to grow up!

I'm sorry this bad thing happened to your friend. Really. It's not ok that people have to die that way.

But your analogy is a bit like the guy who learns to punch first 'cause he got jumped once in the street. Lives the rest of his life worried about it happening again. It's smart, sure... but it sure is supid too. (Not that I'm calling you stupid, that's not my point!)

A Tibetan teacher said:
The problem with people in the west is they're so busy worrying about what might happen that they miss what's happening!

I think that's smarter, personaly!

e

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Message 50/116                 Date: 05-Aug-03  @  08:08 AM   -   RE: RIAA wants you!

Influx

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"suffering from cold youre so afraid you might get burned"

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