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Subject: Faith


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Original Message                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  05:37 AM   -   Faith

psylichon

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Persuant to another thread in another forum in another land...

I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)

I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.





Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.

I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.

And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.

This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?

Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...

Dave

p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...



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Message 41/188                 Date: 25-Sep-02  @  12:19 AM   -   RE: Faith

errata

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"religion...faith...in and of itself is a pure process"

Absolutely. The damage is done by coniving egoists, not the doctrine. Most new testament stuff is hard to argue with... except (for me) where it endeavors to explain the nature of our experience.

e



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Message 42/188                 Date: 25-Sep-02  @  12:47 AM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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e - "The damage is done by coniving egoists"

I think this is a bit harsh. I mean, yes, there are people in the world are are hell-bent on misleading people for their own purposes. But they are in the vast minority, I'll bet. Most people don't realize when they're letting human interests get in the way of true spirituality. And others just follow the road set for them by their predecessors. We're all a bit selfish, but religious leaders aren't necessarily more so just because they lead a congregation. Know what I mean?

psylichon



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Message 43/188                 Date: 25-Sep-02  @  04:49 AM   -   RE: Faith

influx

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nah. definitely not. and I dont think thats what E meant either...



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Message 44/188                 Date: 25-Sep-02  @  07:22 AM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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Just read it again. Yeah you're probably right. I read into things sometimes.

psylichon



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Message 45/188                 Date: 25-Sep-02  @  10:50 AM     Edit: 25-Sep-02  |  02:56 PM   -   RE: Faith

Steve Roughley

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"but it is WE who ruin it by applying our perception "

But isn't that the point! Humans will invariably screw things up in this way. It's in our nature. Now, I'm not saying that all humans are like this and I agree that there are cases where religion works. BUT, there are a great deal of assholes out there who are either too stupid to understand the point of religious and spiritual teachings, or are so damned selfish and manipulative that they use religion for their own non-spiritual gain. Put these people together and you have power-hungry monsters using religion to control masses of fools (sound familiar???). As far as I can see, these people, the people who don't think and the people who suffer from greed and ignorance, make up the greater number of the human race and until we learn how to deal with these people, religion, politics and many other systems that rely on human thought will not work. This is an age-old philisophical problem: how do we deal with the majority; the idiots? Until we figure this out, I will not take stock in any religion as it will be misinterpreted and it will be used to mislead people. Until we learn enough about ourselves behaviourally, I, personally, feel that religion and the learning of our spirituality is too dangerous. Hence the reason that I don't beleive in God. God, would have perceived the monstrosities that religion would be responsible for and if they cared for humans, they would not have given us these beliefs.

Regards.

Steve.



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Message 46/188                 Date: 25-Sep-02  @  03:21 PM   -   RE: Faith

bedwyr

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Maybe he's just an old git. You'd get bored being god after a while though. I tried it once but that omnipresence got to me, I was just all over the place.

ok, i'll get me goat. sorry, coat.



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Message 47/188                 Date: 25-Sep-02  @  06:56 PM   -   RE: Faith

Zazza

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If God is omnipotent then he can do anything right?

So, can he make a mistake?



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Message 48/188                 Date: 25-Sep-02  @  07:03 PM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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You guys are thinking anthropomorphically or whatever the hell it's called.

God doesn't DO anything. God IS everything. God can't make a "mistake" because there's no such thing as a mistake. Even a freakish, asteroid death to all of us this evening wouldn't be a mistake.

Humans are so selfish when it comes to cosmological scales.

psylichon



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Message 49/188                 Date: 25-Sep-02  @  07:16 PM   -   RE: Faith

nomad

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of course we're thinking anthropomorphically. if there's an error there, it's to think that whatever conscienceness God has is down on our level.

a god that is everything and does nothing, is functionally equivalent to no god existing at all, and we are only playing games with semantics at that point.



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Message 50/188                 Date: 25-Sep-02  @  07:24 PM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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N- " god that is everything and does nothing, is functionally equivalent to no god existing at all"

I don't agree with that. I think that all the crazy interactions in the universe... all the "doing", really is a bunch of hooie. You're not really "doing" anything, just like time isn't really "passing." Just like too many quotes are "annoying"  

God is the great non-doer. He just _is_. That's why meditation/prayer/drugs/trance makes you feel closer to God. You're breaking down your normal connections of space and time and reality; "stopping the world"

That was my first yellow smiley, by the way. It hurt. I'll never do it again.

psylichon



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