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Subject: Faith


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Original Message                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  05:37 AM   -   Faith

psylichon

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Persuant to another thread in another forum in another land...

I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)

I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.





Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.

I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.

And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.

This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?

Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...

Dave

p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...



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Message 31/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  10:36 PM   -   RE: Faith

Zazza

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nomad: 'science? all of science rests on an unspoken assumption - the laws of science never change (how the world works today, is how it will work tomorrow). we can never prove this. '

Well, it certainly isn't unspoken.. .. this issue has been and is investigated thoroughly by scientists, in fact some theories rely on the fact that the laws of physics are mutable over time and between universes..

nomad: 'jesus did not just talk the talk, he walked the walk, right through torture and execution, during which his almost-last words were 'father forgive them, for they know not what they do.'

'My God, why have you forsaken me?' ring a bell?


Formant, your ephiphany/road to damascus thing is not exclusive to christianity... it is an experience available to anyone via an any number of means.. if christianity does it for you then cool, but it doesn't really say anything for christianity in particular.

psylichon : yup it's all around right enough.. just have to open your eyes and see...

The tibetan thing check out 'The myth of freedom' and 'Cutting through spiritual materialism' by Chogyam Trungpa, very cool guy, into sex and drugs and rock n roll before he passed on to whatever...

x: Awareness and doubt are the very things that tibetan buddhism suggests may be the way off the wheel of karma.. discriminating awareness is what they call it...

But, I always stay away from any organised spiritual thing cos it invariably gets tangled up with egos and runs riot one way or another... and nearly always turns into a 'them and us' pile of bullshit.. sigh



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Message 32/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  10:44 PM   -   RE: Faith

nomad

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well i wasn't expecting this to become a debate forum (though i should have expected it  , seemed like more of a 'raw data gathering' type thing.

yeah, i'm aware of that statement. i do not know how the two are juxtaposed at the resurrection, they are not in the same book.

and i wasn't implying that it was a 'dirty secret' or anything, just that science itself relies on an assumption for its proof too, i'm sure most scientists are aware of it. varying laws over time? those variations themselves are governed by laws i assume as well, so this doesn't add anything, it's just a differential of the same concept.



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Message 33/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  10:46 PM   -   RE: Faith

errata

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"But, I always stay away from any organised spiritual thing cos it invariably gets tangled up with egos and runs riot one way or another... and nearly always turns into a 'them and us' pile of bullshit.. sigh"

Couldn't agree with you more. One must keep his about him in these waters.

e



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Message 34/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  10:57 PM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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x - I don't think you have a problem to be solved, just ideas to be understood. I commented on the part of your post I understood the best (or at least thought I did). If you don't want to talk about it, fine.

I'm sorry none of us are at your level, xoxos. And I mean that wholeheartedly. Sometimes I just want to know more of where you're coming from. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

psylichon



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Message 35/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  11:01 PM     Edit: 24-Sep-02  |  11:11 PM   -   RE: Faith

Steve Roughley

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These conversations really hurt my brain after a days lectures at college so, as allways, I will not get too involved. But I will let you know something that I found frightening today, as it involves faith to some extent.

When I got home, I was just about to do the dishes, etc., when I heard the doorbell go. When I opened the door there were two extremely clean, blonde and tidy gentlemen stood there (they were frighteningly plastic, reminiscent of Hitlers Super-Race). The one on the right started off by telling me that they had been speaking to my neighbours about 'death'. They also wanted to know if this subject interested me. By this point I figured that these fellows were Jehova's Witnesses but I was quite freaked out by these guys and, rather than close the door, I succumbed to their sales ploy. I had never bothered to learn about these '7th Day Adventus' people so was quite shocked to learn that they believe that the world is going to end in a few years and they have beleived the world will end in a few years for a great deal longer than a few years. Not only that, but they also beleive that Heaven only has room for 144,000 souls and so when the saviour comes to kill everyone, all of the 'Good' people will rise from the dust and will be stuck in this place FOREVER, rather than be rewarded with heaven.

I'm sorry to say that there is no way in hell that I could have faith in anything like this. Or any form of religion, or God for that matter. As far as I can see, if God cared one iota about humans, or if they loved us AT ALL, they would not have given us these bizzarre religions. It seems like a complete mockery of all who have faith! After experiences such as this, I am still having trouble putting faith in my own existence. It's all to wierd. Descartes didn't even think this problem through far enough, as I sometimes wonder (usually at 4am after much wine) if ones own thought is any proof of existence at all. Even thought gets too strange.

Regards.

Steve.



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Message 36/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  11:17 PM   -   RE: Faith

Zazza

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Can u imagine coming 144,001st?

bummer



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Message 37/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  11:23 PM   -   RE: Faith

bedwyr

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listen mate, you're name's not on the list, you're not coming in, i don't care if you do know paul.



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Message 38/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  11:23 PM   -   RE: Faith

errata

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"ahh man", standing at the gate as the horde follows the glowing man on the white horse in. "Hook a brotha up man! Number 144,001!!!! What's that sh*t? Damn..."

Looking for ways to climb the fence... sneak in past security... etc

The idea that this paradise has a finite amount of space is sort of rediculous. And if there is a finite space in heaven, why does the creator continue to allow more and more souls?... more and more people abandonded to the earthly confines of our floating blue ball.

e



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Message 39/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  11:38 PM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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Sometimes people forget what a metaphor is and they start worshipping the literal dogmas of their faith. Where does this stuff come from? 144,000? A thousand gross... nice round number I suppose...

Even more subtle metaphors can be found in more common faiths, though. I see a Bible full of em.

psylichon



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Message 40/188                 Date: 25-Sep-02  @  12:08 AM   -   RE: Faith

influx

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"learn about these '7th Day Adventus' people "

adventists.

I will say this...religion...faith...in and of itself is a pure process, but it is WE who ruin it by applying our perception

144k? give me a fucking break



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