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Subject: what scale is this?


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Original Message                 Date: 05-Apr-00  @  11:46 PM   -   what scale is this?

kid dik

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I know nothing of scales or notes even. As much as I read, it passes over me every time. Help a bone head out, won't cha?



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Message 31/46                 Date: 14-Apr-00  @  03:44 PM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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Ha ha ha :-)... soooo predicatable man, i knew i was in for yet another slagging... but.. bringing your mates in for some backup now :-)... that is well tired.. :-) sorry.. but it's just too funny... Hi 'Katy'... thanks for your informative comments, i'll er... bare them in mind... and i'll try to fall into Annies 'Cunning traps' (Pooh & piglet & heffalumps eh?!!), as much as i can in future eh ?!?...


Anyways look.. Fannie, if you DO post something later of useful info that clarifies theory better for newbies that'll be cool.. but please.. use paragraph tags to split it up, cos posted in one BIG chunk of text it is really tuff to read... if you dunno how to do that just post it, and i'll re-format it

PS... i like happy & hardcore.. and ANYTHING frankly if it has integrity... I got music in my den from classical & eastern to 'banging' dance and hardcore grungey stuff where do you get this idea that people are sneering at those styles.... ?? .. paranoid ???!

Man, i'm a fucking MUSICIAN!!.. i've been playing prolly since before you were a stiffie in yer pop's trousers!!... and surely you know, all REAL musicians are non critical of styles.. that rubbish is just for non-playaz & media twitz so they can sell magazines or whatever...

Music of all sorts has an energy etc, or it does NOT.. (the NOT is the crap regardless of style)... So, I can get the same rush from hardcore dance, with screaming agressive 303's or whatever over a massive hard fast banging beat etc as I can get from hard as fuck, fast, aggressive hardcore guitar thrash bands, and at either type of gig, you'll find me banging with my head stuck in the bassbins..... to me, the energy is the same, just as the energy of a cool winding ambient piece can move me when i'm in THAT mood like say Debbussy's Syrix for Flute can...(spelling?), or Asik Veysel ... to me, it's the same shit.. it's just energy...

doncha know??...?.. ! :-)



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Message 32/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  06:09 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

Harmony

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(bloomin'hek, I'm tired, so if I fall asleep nudge me...) K, dont get so deffensive-arent your mates curious bout your interests? I just COPY/PASTE'd the email coz she's 2 much of a nice person 2 come ere & yell abuse at u-that's my gob! Only avin a laugh...Whai a minute...I'm just experimentin coz u've just made me curious bout summink...aaahhhhhaaaaa



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Message 33/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  06:28 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

Harmony

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Wiikiid! that tag worked! At least, it looks like it did in my hazy state. Right, K, can I av 1 of these boxes but with more keyboard pics? Is there a tag or summink I can use? & I suggest u reformat it anyways coz HTML lecture were 10AM friday &....bwoy....that's not the best of times 2 b alert let alone awake! By the way, how deep d'u want me 2 go? Very basics/blagger's guide/or...the lot? If u want the lot I'll need qwite a few more keyboards indeed...OK, but 2 get u started, think of the notes that constitute B flat major and compare them 2 the notes in G minor.



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Message 34/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  06:47 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

arska

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i havven't got any formal music education... but, i really think it wouldn't be that bad idea to have somewhere written some basic stuff about scales & harmony, and so taht it would have some direct relevance to this electronic stuff we like...
because, for instance, i took the trouble to learn the fucking rudimements of western harmony from the teoretical point of view, and ewven tried to apply it for a while, but very soon i realisid that it just doesn't go that way... there is incredibly little written about contemporary, "our", music from in analytical, or from music maker view point...beside the "gear" perspective...
i use to read for instance Select magazine, and i liked the way the reviews were written, but why is music almost never analysed discussed as music, it's always, this song tells about unemployment or Thatcher, fuck! why should i care. Nothing wrong with writing songs about social issues, but there is then a problem, when people write about music as a "surrogate literature" or sociology or "cultural studies" guys write about music, because they don't know a fucking thing about music as music...
so Harmony u r lighning speed typist, do an article here in Dancetech, or is it a bad idea
if there is in scale note "a" then there is "b" or flatted b, like in g minor scale, but if we have g#minor scale ... what we have then...a# ...and flatted c! that is b...or what... shit, u harmony should xplain this if u can, about enharmonic notation and stuff...
let's be constructive and positive!



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Message 35/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  08:36 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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HEY!!... i just figured it out!!... you two are both members of 'GIRL THING' :-) - YO YO YO !!!!!....

By the way kid dik.. I checked what i wrote agin above... THERE IS A BOOB IN IT FOR SURE.. it is ALL correct and not wrong EXCEPT for the bit about:

'if a flat is in a key they the accidentals (the symbols on the stave next to the time sig that indicate a sharpened or flattened note)'

- that is wrong... in the key signature next to the Time Signature 2/4, /4/4 & the treble clef (that squiggly symbol) etc... A# is always written as A#..... on the A-line...

Sorry... I got confused there cos I was always told by music theory people that one refers to A# as B-flat... (i never figured out why when i asked i was told it was 'just how it is').. maybe THAT is wrong also... just what i was told ... still... it is all correct except this bit:

...so where there is a FLAT note in the KEY-SIGNATURE, all the other notes are converted to FLAT'S instead of sharps as far as I know (fuck i wish I could find that RCM theory book... so the key-signature icons for G#-major is written on the stave as:

Aflat (G#), Bflat(C#), C, D-flat(C#), E-flat(D#), F, G, A-flat(G#)

those are the notes that are played sharp/flat... yeah.. exactly, it is looney toons huh!!..


Althought people REFER to A# as B-flat... in the KEY SIGNATURE, IF there is a B-FLAT in the key, the Sharp will be on the A line of the stave to make B-flat (A#)... so it is WRITTEN as A#... but (if what i was told is correct) expressed in WORDS as B-Flat....

the rest is all ok as far as i can tell....




SO.....slagging aside, here's the rest of the basics U need to mess about and get cool chord sequences for your tracks in a house, garage or trance stylee....

Part-2
Further to the above, you've also got RELATIVE minor KEYS which is probably a good thing to look at on a basic level cos you can find minor keys and from them find the Triads to work with over the bassline/s keys....

like major Keys/scales are pretty simple to work out... Just start on a Given note, and walk up the keyboard always using the same spacing:

tone- tone - tone - tone / tone - tone - tone - semitone

this DOESNT mean on the keyboard-KEYS you always space the notes two keys apart, but a WHOLE TONE appart musically (2 semitones)... so say if you start on B, the next step will be up to C# ... Start on F, the next step up will be to G.. etc.. the thing with a basic major scale is simply that keeping that spacing as you go up the keyboard, the last step up to the octave HAS to be a semitone to resolve to the octave note ....

RELATIVE minor scales... knowing the RELATIVE MINOR KEY to a Given MAJOR KEY is cool... and simple....

The relative Minor to a Major... the MAJOR starts on the 3rd of the Minor... so you gotta count back the first 3 notes of a minor scale backwards: - semitone - tone - tone, (the begining of the Relative-minor scale backwards) to find the relative minor key of a given MAJOR key ...

or to find the REALTIVE MAJOR of a MINOR key, count UP to the Minor 3rd and THAT note is the starting Root note of that MINOR keys relative MAJOR...

So... if the major is C.... Starting on C, count 3 back...so....

1-C... then back a semitone to 2-B, then a tone to 3-A.... So A_Minor is the Relative Minor of C Major.

Keeping to C which is the easiest, notice that when you start in C, and play a major scale, you simply walk up the White notes using no black notes until you reach the upper C an octave up.... well it sounds MAJOR right!!?.... ok check it...

step back to get the Minor, C, then back a semi, back a tone... Now you are on the A key of the keyboard... Now, this is the Realtive Minor right!.. ok... go for a walk up the keyboard again playing ONLY white notes until you reach the upper A octave note... HAH!!!.... sounds MINOR NOW !!!....

see?... and the Key signature (the arrangements of sharp symbols on the stave next to the treble clef & time sig' (3/4, 4/4 etc) mentioned above is THE SAME for MAJORS & THEIR RELATIVE MINOR KEYS.. cos the relative MINOR KEY of a MAJOR KEY uses EXACTLY THE SME SHARPENNED OR FLATTENED ACCIDENTALS..

(ACCIDENTALS = notes that have to be played sharp or flat... cool huh !!...) - it's those crafty mathmatical relationships at work again...



Ok.. check it.... For the Relative Minor for A major...

Start on the A key of the keyboard & count back:

1-A - then a semitone back to 2-G# - then a tone back to 3-F#.... so, F#_Minor is the relative minor of A Major... and there it is simplifeid of course....



now, that is of little use without knowing how to form a MINOR scale once you know that the relative minor key you want for A Major IS F#_minor etc... but Minor scales get very messy, cos there are several types,... it's not nearly as straightforward as a simple basic major scale... so, i'll simply give you the spacing between notes for forming a simple NATURAL MINOR scale (Aolian i think it's called) ...

there is also Harmonic minors, Melodic minors Ascending & Descending etc.. BUT, once you get the spacing for a NATURAL MINOR scale, you'll find it easy to just move some of the notes in the scale to HEAR that actually, it doesnt sound incorrect to stray from those notes & STILL sound MINOR... (like does it matter anyways if it sound good to you!!)...

ok... to make a NATURAL MINOR SCALE it is basically the same as a Major except it has a flattened third..... the thing that charcterises it, is a FLATTENED or MINOR third ...

like when you start on C.... step up a whole tone to D... then rather than ANOTHER whole tone to E, (like in the major C scale), YOU STEP UP A MINOR 3RD to D#/E-flat...(so up just a semi-tone)... NOT A MAJOR-THIRD like in the major scale... so.. the spacing is this...
NATURAL MINOR:
tone- tone - semi-tone - tone / tone - tone - tone - semitone

MAJOR:
tone- tone - tone - tone / tone - tone - tone - semitone

kay?...





this is simplified.. but check it out... you know for example you can make a basic TRIAD for C-major.. to make a basic cheesy C-Major chord with the: root-C, 3rd-D & 5th-G...

C_(ROOT) - E_(third) - G_(5th)

ok... now keep the same root and 5th.. but step the 3rd down a semi-tone... MINOR CHORD RIGHT!!... ok... so basically without resort to comlexed stuff, to make simple 3 finger chords major or minor use that... root 3rd and 5th, but with a flattened 3rd or un-flattened 3rd ... to make major or minor simple chords

for making more interesting chords for riffs in house or garage etc... just make variations on those notes...

TRY keeping: the Root, the 3rd (Maj' or Min') and 5th... then try moving the 3th up and down a tone back and forth from the 3rd to the 4th like 'Modulating' that note between the 3rd & 4th... y'know, like the basic intro riff to 'Pinball Wizzard' by the Who from Tommy... you'll hear it straight away it's a simple 'modulation' used alot in pop & rock...

it's the equivilent of playing a basic first position D major guitar chord then putting-on & taking-off the pinky finger on the fret above the last note your holding of the chord as you strum.... ( a suspended 4th chord)

OK... to make that basic 3 note chord/modulation sound 'BIGGER' or fatter, dont play the 5th with the right chord hand, play it (the same 5th note) but an octave lower , with your left hand below the chord..... so it's the same chord, still rocking the 3rd-to-4th 'modulation', but with the 5th played an octave lower... simple chord riff for 'happy' stuff over a beat...

keeping basic attatched notes in the chords in their relative keys, and moving other notes around in progressions if the most simple way in pop & rock that they create lusher sounding chords... it's real simple mate... for example...

go to the piano/keyboard... play that basic TRIAD - 1ST (with your thumb), 3RD-(index finger), 5TH- (pinky-finger) for a simple C-Major chord...

now, with your left hand, play the C-root an octave lower with one finger... now... keep holding and playing the upper 5th with your right hand pinky-finger... BUT start to move the your other two fingers.... keeping them spaced EXACTLY the same two notes apart

move them down a whole tone, then down again another whole tone keeping the same spacing whilst at the same time keep playing that bottom C-octave with your left hand!...

yup.. heh heh - the intro chord sequence to the title song from 'Robin Hood- Prince of Theives' - Bryan Adams.. sounds LUSH & COMPLICATED yes!!, like a 'REAL musician' type shit...... BUT SOOO SIMPLE...... just resolve it to a G chord for the final chord of the sequence...

so just use the Keys to find stuff that relates, and use the scales to fin the notes then mess about holding down roots with your bassline then work on modulating Triads around whilst ANCHORING root, 3rd & 5th notes to play them of to create cool harmonies... this gets you cool-sounding BUT simple chord sequences no sweat without busting a gut...

that is the basis of house, garage & trance chord progression structures... then overlay sequenced monophonic patterns over that shit, again drawing on the relationships bewteen Keys/scales/notes that youre using....

Plus obvioulsy, you can create a bassline first in the sequencer, then while it plays work on the chord parts, or do the chords, then work on a modulating bassline, or even GO BACK to the bassline after youve made chords to it, and mess with it some more in light of the chords youve come up with...

trust me man... that ACHORING of the basic trid notes combined with miving spaced diads (pair of harmonically spaced notes) is the root of all the great big selling chart hits.. the more you mess, the more you'll hear them... stuff like Aerosmiths 'I dont wanna close my eyes'.. (not that aerosmith wrote it, that woman wrote it, she's some bigwig US 'un-seen' - song-writer).... it's how you turn mundane simple chord sequences into something that sounds lusher and WAY more complicated.... sure, it aint Keith Jarret !! :-)..but still... you gotta start somewhere right!.. better to get encouraging results... This is the shit people like Sash use all the time...

Laters ....



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Message 36/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  08:39 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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heres the sequence to that bryan adams shit - 1



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Message 37/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  08:40 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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2



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Message 38/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  08:43 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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3



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Message 39/46                 Date: 15-Apr-00  @  08:49 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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4 - back up with a G root optional depending on where you are in the song, in the original i think they vary that, any who cares, you can see where it's going riiight! ( if G, it should be an octave lower but No room)



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Message 40/46                 Date: 16-Apr-00  @  12:50 AM   -   RE: what scale is this?

k

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doh!!!!... shit crap & bollox!!!.. as Fannie pointed out... the ACTUAL SPACING for a major scale is:

TONE - TONE - TONE - SEMITONE / TONE - TONE - TONE - SEMITONE

god i hate typing.. something seems to go missing between the keyboard and when you walk to the computer to type.. drat...



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