Original Message                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  05:37 AM   -   Faith

psylichon

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Persuant to another thread in another forum in another land...

I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)

I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.





Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.

I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.

And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.

This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?

Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...

Dave

p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...

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Message 151/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  08:25 PM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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I don't care why they do it or who funds them or if they're trying to help humanity or just make a buck.

The PROCESS of science fascinates me and I believe it is formulating or at least is attempting to formulate a logical way of describing what TRULY IS. Even mathematicians know their language is just that, a language, and it is just a representation of reality. But the way that they vigorously prove theorums and revise those proofs and just the dynamic nature of the mathematical language makes it the leading candidate to describe reality (to me, at least).

Their quest for a theory of everything may be a farce, but even if they succeeded in the end, it will still be a metaphor, a description, a theory (just like the Bible's or the Koran's or every religion's answers is to all the questions), but I'm attracted to the ideas of symmetry and simplicity by which, believe it or not, science is guided. It's not the experience they're talking about, but the most accurate description of the experience.

Ah fuck it, you guys are just going to tell me to go outside and get some fresh air or something.

psylichon

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Message 152/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  08:59 PM   -   RE: Faith

k

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that larger negative numbers = smaller size like a mirror is VERY interesting... each side meets at zero then and can be a loop like:


10000000000.00000000001

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 153/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  09:10 PM   -   RE: Faith

xoxos

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eat me

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Message 154/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  09:17 PM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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But that's the thing, there is no actual zero for either side of the coin. There is a minimum length... the planck length. We can't see anything smaller than the planck length because of heisenberg's uncertainty principle (anything we would use to probe that scale would have too much energy to be of use). In fact, we're not even close to seeing the planck length.

It's been shown (indirectly) that particles spontaneously emerge and annihilate themselves out of "thin air" at that scale, violating all laws of thermodynamics and conservation. In fact, many feel that time and space as we know it simply doesn't exist smaller than the planck length. All bets are off.

The universe is quantized (at least to us) by these units (hence quantum dynamics). The planck measurement and subsequent quantization isn't just for length or space, but mass, energy, and time (10^-43 seconds) as well. According to our best theories to date, we have to say that all of space and time began when the universe was 10^-43 seconds old. Before that, we can't even guess.

Now isn't that fucking fascinating? And you all cherish your true analog synths for their unstepped linearity of control. Pah! No such thing! :}

psylichon

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Message 155/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  09:24 PM   -   RE: Faith

k

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er... '10^-43 seconds'

??

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 156/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  09:34 PM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds


- the time it takes light to travel (you guessed it) the planck length.

psylichon

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Message 157/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  09:55 PM   -   RE: Faith

k

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hold on...

It's been shown (indirectly) that particles spontaneously emerge and annihilate themselves out of "thin air" at that scale, violating all laws of thermodynamics and conservation. In fact, many feel that time and space as we know it simply doesn't exist smaller than the planck length. All bets are off.

who's 'laws' are they breaking?... surely they mean: 'appear out of thin air' - meaning - 'appear out of as far as we can see with our primative technology' ??

so you're saying humans actauly beleive that they can quantify/measure the universe?... i reckon it's pointless creating measurement theories cos you can never measure something infinate.

How can there can be a limit imposed?... I dont think any scientific theory can 'explain' it or rather quantify it. But truly accepting that it is not measureable is in itself very difficult.

It's all a matter of scale - if you were small enuff, you could fly in a spaceship into your body like entering a milky way and gazing at the stars within. But it's strange how we hold together even tho on a molecular scale we're riddled with holes the size of galaxies... odd. anyways it is about being able to 'feel' yourself on a different scale mebbe?.. cos dont we scientificaly try to measure things always starting at the standpoint of OUR scale?... but if you throw that out the window and admit, you really have NO idea what scale you are in terms of the universe then it's odd... you COULD be the size of a galaxy?... compared to what scale you beleive you are in an everyday way I mean. Like syou see a car and compare your scale to that, not to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction x a trillion of an atom.

In reality this solar system is probably one part of one part of one part of one atom in the right elbow of some bloke called Arnold or something & the lifetime of our universe is the life of one of his skin cells.

I mean you cant have infinity in one direction how can that be a balanced universe otherwise?.. the 'outer' universe couldn't exist otherwise surely? - but oddly that contains objects which themselves have inner and outer universes... hmm...

Don't you ever 'do macro' ?.. like go out to a field or park and just study a tiny spot on the ground or a some long grass with insects on it?.. it rocks! - insects interact with each other really interestingly, it's like 'bugs life', after a while you sort of 'lose scale' if you get me  

 

groovy maaaan   lol!!

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 158/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  10:18 PM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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wouldn't that be doing micro? :}

Yeah I know what you mean. I agree that infinite expansion eventually leads you back to what you thought was infinite reduction (the universe is an elbow molecule), but I think the refers back to itself. There is nothing but our universe (I think), no other universes, but it is an extremely strange and self-referrential universe. Holograms are an increasingly appropriate analogy. In holographic imagery, all of the information to create the entire image is contained in every part of the holographic film (that's why when you cut it in half, you still see the whole image in both parts, and in fourths and so on... these are real holo's btw, not those fake silver stickers)

The point is the universe reflects a similar whole in the parts. Scientists are starting to realize that all those parts they've been discovering only reflect the whole as a unit.

A good page about interconnectedness:
http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC34/Gilman.htm

psylichon

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Message 159/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  10:38 PM   -   RE: Faith

milan

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The_Galaxy_Song.mp3

this thread rocks. here´s my contribution to it^^

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Message 160/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  10:39 PM   -   RE: Faith

influx

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damn I have a headache now

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