Original Message                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  05:37 AM   -   Faith

psylichon

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Persuant to another thread in another forum in another land...

I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)

I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.





Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.

I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.

And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.

This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?

Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...

Dave

p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...

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Message 141/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  11:50 AM   -   RE: Faith

Zazza

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According to the latest M-Theory, the multiverse is 11 dimensional and contains a possibly infinite number of universes crashing against other like waves in the sea. Each universe would have its own physical laws...

cool...

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Message 142/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  11:50 AM   -   RE: Faith

cheddar

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K, Scale is a pattern (like vector graphic) so infinity may not be relevant here. OK in this plane we have a group belief in physicality, which introduces 'a real world' with distance/topography but, like any organised thought we build on this structure to explain the complex but shared world around us. Empirically there is a physicality, a 'place' so introducing distance, composition etc and your point about universes and scale. BUT what if we are the dreams of dolphins or reflections of a truer existence or a cacophony of genes inherited (like the single DT voice composed of all our posts) then what we are looking for maybe exactly somewhere else.

I think that technology is a hardening of resolve not to explore there and 'take it as read'.
I am not sure how technology can help with our personal understanding of ourselves. It's fine that science can give us models that help us to explain or come to terms with how we feel/experience but I think that technological development is way ahead of human development (I mean look at out interpersonal behaviour - have we evolved much?) so the idea of technology helping us to understand will probably become a case of applying tech to find what we are looking for (should we really be amazed at discovery!). Remember science usually breaks systems down to discrete reliable? units (something I have trouble with in an equilibric system). Holistic approaches are too wooley and give answers that are difficult to interprit and apply specifically. Deffinatly technology is strong but the powers that wield it are collectivly neanderthal by comparison

What am I trying to say here

erm

DT ROOLZ! YAH

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Message 143/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  02:07 PM   -   RE: Faith

xoxos

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this one goes to eleven!

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Message 144/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  02:40 PM   -   RE: Faith

xoxos

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oh and on cheddar (what does that make me? onions?) i'd say - let technology speak for itself then. find ways to bring technology to people.. in a friendly user way, not a user friendly way, or something.

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Message 145/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  03:04 PM   -   RE: Faith

cheddar

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tech - piss on it. Oh yeah it can do. Do what?

What they decide we want to do with it, keep us as tame hungry beta testers for the next killer app

changes living around todays tech till tomorrow changes living

who is in charge here? people serve the pockets of technocrats.

same deal with the car. Possessions.

pos·ses·sion (p-zshn) n.

The act or fact of possessing.
The state of being possessed.
Something owned or possessed.
possessions Wealth or property.
Law. Actual holding or occupancy with or without rightful ownership.
A territory subject to foreign control.
Self-control.
The state of being dominated by or as if by evil spirits or by an obsession.
Sports.
Physical control of the ball or puck by a player or team.

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Message 146/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  05:53 PM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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Yeah, tech sucks. Go turn off that synth now.

It's interesting k, there's a point of reduction or reduced scale (the planck length... roughly equal to 1.6 x 10^-35 m or about 10^-20 times the size of a proton) at which point it makes just as much sense to use another means of measurement. You see, we measure things a certain way because it's the easiest way in our scale of existence (using photons and vision and such). But without getting too much into the math of it (mainly because I don't know it), there's an equally valid way of measuring sub-planck lengths that indicates the "shrinking" scope is actually getting bigger. It will never reduce to 0, instead it will actually increase according to the new measurements (which will actually be an easier system at this scale than our system of measurement would be)

The best analogy I can think of is the decimal point. Each successive place on the left side (our scale of existence) represent larger ideas and realities (10 of something is less than 100). However, increasing spaces on the right side of the decimal represent diminishing realities (.001 is larger than .0001). It's all the same numbers, just how they are used symbolically that matter.

What this all boils down to is that infinities are everywhere to show us how limited our modes of thinking are. And if you understand what I mean here please come over and share some coffee and a joint with me cause none of my friends do.

psylichon

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Message 147/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  05:58 PM   -   RE: Faith

errata

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I do!

And it's all very fascinating. I would say what it boils down to, is we're monkeys for trying to measure it in the first place. The reality of quantum physics is that things only take on substance (from our perspective) when we measure/evaluate them. So in measuring, we receive what we expect.

The sun only rises because we expect it to?!

e

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Message 148/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  06:03 PM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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yeah, but I think that mechanism should be explored. We can't just throw our hands up and give up on science because it doesn't tell us anything. We need to understand why it doesn't work. We need a pardigm shift.

The amazing thing is that science is starting to answer the question of its own validity. It's showing the great "nothingness" and "unity" that so many religions talk about. Hell, the fact is that science is the modern religion, and the more metaphysical psysics becomes, the more willing people will be to embrace spirituality. Nuff said... science is a good thing.

psylichon

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Message 149/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  06:24 PM   -   RE: Faith

errata

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I didn't say it wasn't. I love science, and I agree it's the new spirituality. It's just logic, and at the heart of even the "moon is our goddess" religions it's all logic. An effort to measure and understand our experience. Just 'cause we call it science, doesn't make it different or superior to other "faiths"...

The reason religion gets the knock is that followers of faith often believe without thinking through and exploring the validity of their faith. Like people just excepting scientific notions without educating themselves on where these conclusions came from and how they were determined.

e

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Message 150/188                 Date: 11-Oct-02  @  07:38 PM   -   RE: Faith

science

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you put too much faith in science.

It's run by people, people who need to get results, who need to get results that make them worthy of more funding.

gods laboratory/church of scientology
spin people!

weekendings beginning

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