Original Message                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  05:37 AM   -   Faith

psylichon

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Persuant to another thread in another forum in another land...

I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)

I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.





Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.

I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.

And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.

This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?

Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...

Dave

p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...

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Message 11/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  10:18 AM     Edit: 24-Sep-02  |  10:18 AM   -   RE: Faith

Zazza

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If you want more detail I will say this;

At various times and in various places and situations it has become apparent to me that our sense of individuation from both each other and the rest of the universe is just one narrow view of what we truly are, which is part of an ultimately indivisible and conscious universe.

The reason I believe this is because I feel it to be so. I feel it to be so because I have looked inside myself and examined the nature of my experience and I have looked outside myself and examined the nature of everything around me.

Conclusion: all made of the same stuff.

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Message 12/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  10:43 AM   -   RE: Faith

Captain Birdseye

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Not my crispy cod finger fillets me hearties!!... aaaarrr!... they're made from only the juiciest tenderest flakes of cod in a crisp breadcrub coating and nothing more!

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Message 13/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  11:12 AM     Edit: 24-Sep-02  |  11:13 AM   -   RE: Faith

bedwyr

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Well i'm made of better stuff than even Captain "dodgy perv" Birdseye's crispy cod, an' i thanks the lord for it, see?

An' if you 'aven't got the proper stardust in yer bones then yous all 'ave to learn the lord's lingo if you wanna get to 'eaven. so, repeat after me "dw i'n hoffi coffi". it's the only way, 'ri but?

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Message 14/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  11:18 AM   -   RE: Faith

pict

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Faith is passed down from generation to generation to a great extent what your parents believed will be what you believe until you mature enough to start thinking for yourself.I think that most people raised in a strictly religious backround that "stray" as you put it always have the niggling thought in the back of their heads that maybe their childhood religions view of the world is correct.The fact is all of these religions indoctrinate the children born to believers and make use of the parents belief to instil belief in the child.I think that Christianity matters a lot less to the majority of people in the west than what is in their bank account the great god Mammon and his manservant science has replaced the Christian god.If human beings could deal with each other without the encumbrance of religion which is in my opinion nothing more than than a collection of codified superstitions I think they would get along a lot better with each other at the very least one very prominent source of conflict would be removed from the equation.I think the idea of deferred gratification is bullshit and harmful to the human psyche be a good believer and endure all sorts of mindless rituals and don't worry if you're having a shit life because when you die you'll go to heaven for having been a good boy and toeing God's company line well fuck that.If we all lived our lives in the realisation that the only life we have or will ever have is the one we've got now I can't help but think that might go some way to creating a society or even a world where people actually tried to improve the quality of their lives a lot more actively.Theocrats have from time immemorial hijacked the sense of connection we have with other living things and used it to further their own ends in my opinion the purpose of life is simply to live which is why the idea of eternal life in the hereafter is such an effective marketing campaign mortals are attracted to the idea of immortality like moths to a flame and just as unthinkingly.

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Message 15/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  12:22 PM   -   RE: Faith

k

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My freind always say we are a classroom biology project in a big glass box in a school classroom, the kids first made dinosaurs but got tired of their boring predictable behaviour so they got rid of them and started the human project instead....

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Message 16/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  12:26 PM   -   RE: Faith

xoxos

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i place my faith in my ability to doubt.

and sure, christianity does work... for putting power in the hands of fascists and tyrants.

don't you dare put anything in that collection plate, or i'll punch you, man!

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Message 17/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  03:37 PM   -   RE: Faith

formant

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i have never been asked to expound on why i believe.... kinda a very personal subject.

some people approach religion from a 'lawyer' standpoint. they look at evidence on whether to even bother with religion or not and if they decide not to be a diest or agnostic they then line up all the religions and make comparison charts and that kinda stuff.

other people stumble into religion because of supernatural experiences. something happens to them that is more real than anything they have experienced in the physical realm. most people of a scientific mind are unable to accept this as true because they have rejected anything except what they can see and touch.

for me, it was the second way of finding god. or i suppose he found me.

i was like 13ish at a church youth group deal and had nothing more than an intellectual faith. well some guys prayed for me and i felt an overwhelming power rush over me. the only way i can explain it is for you to imagine the feelings of love you have for a girl. now multiply them times 100,000 until they fill up a space as big as the earth.... now compress that down into an area the size of your chest and put it back in your body... along with that every nerve of my body was pulsing on and off for like hours afterwards.

there was no hypnotism, no mind control, it was just some other 13ish type kid praying for me, laying hands on me.

well i have experienced that same sensation frequently through my life. in fact each time i go to pray in solitude or whenever i take communion. its the deepest, most enveloping sensation of love that can be experienced. better than the love i feel for my wife, better than the love i feel for my kids.

well because of this physical union with the creator of the universe, i found myself with an unshakable faith in god and his son jesus. i take the bible as true because of the true experience that happened, is happening, and will happen everytime i pray to him and seek him.

after college i started realizing that not everyone in the world thought like i do. and i can't blame them. i honestly don't think i would have become a christian if i had not experienced something that was absolutely and definately outside myself. now that i have experienced it, it is more real than anything i can understand. but not everyone has this advantage or even wants to bother to seek it.

so i found out there were a whole bunch of people on the planet who really don't like christianity. some people have valid reasons (crusades etc) and others are quite irrational (no offense xoxos buddy 

there are people who say evolution is true, there are people who try and create myths about who christ was, there are people who try and malign the bible as fairy tales, there are people who have found 'spirits' that guide them that are not the creator (wicca, neo paganism etc) and therefore have misunderstandings about how things work and try to put them over on christians etc etc etc the list is literally INFINATE of the reasons put forth to disbelieve the bible.

i went thru every single one of these over the course of years and haven't found anything to shake what i now feel is the truth. its hard to argue with the feelings of love and ecstacy that come over me while praying.

in fact, at each point where i see the bible or the historical trueness of jesus attacked, i come away stronger. its very cool.

so anyway thats kinda why i am where i am at now.

i attend a charismatic episcopal church which is a wierd combination of rock type modern worship music combined with priests wearing robes and swinging incense and doing the eucharist etc. i love it and have found a community there of people who genuinely care. when my wife was in the hospital, priests came out and comforted/prayed for us. when we had our children, people brought us food for a week. the church feeds people that are hungry and runs a medical clinic for free two days a week so poor people in the community can get medical care. people are looking for true community and brotherhood and along with the wonderful feelings of love and peace that i get from my creator i share with my church as well. not all churches are the hypocritical greedy stereotypes that many people experience. i could write a book on why the church in america sucks. mine doesn't tho.

i dunno that i can convince anyone intellectually about belief in god, and really i think that defeats the purpose. each human on the planet was designed to commune with thier creator and we all have god shaped holes in our heart. some fill it with greed and pursuit of success, some fill it with drugs, some fill it with sex. but the condition of the person will never be satisfied until what was intended takes hold of their heart.

so good luck on your journey, if you need any advice feel free to email me at formant@bellsouth.net. i will say a prayer for you tonight.

jamey

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Message 18/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  03:46 PM   -   RE: Faith

nomad

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everyone has faith... in the end, philosophically, there are very few things that can be proven. almost everything else rests on some assumptions, something you believe without proof.

science? all of science rests on an unspoken assumption - the laws of science never change (how the world works today, is how it will work tomorrow). we can never prove this.

similarly, i can not prove a 'spiritual' world, but yet i know it exists. i cannot even tell you how i know, i just know. if you've seen 'the matrix', well, that really surprised me because that's how i feel the real world is, not machines or whatever but that there is a world past this one, more real and more permanent.

and i am a christian because as i study it, the more i study it and see what god really says, who he really is, the more it resonates with what i see around me, what i see in reality.

the golden rule, that's part of christianity (and judaism before it). few have lived up to it but it's always been there. but there's a fundamental difference between god's version and the popular version.

the popular version, really, is something like 'do unto others as you would have them do to you, unless they do something to you you don't like, then feel free to kick their ass.'

god's version is 'do unto others as you would have them do to you.' full stop. that's it. nothing else. no conditions, no escape clauses.

the popular version leads one to believe 'well, i'm not perfect but i do pretty good, and the stuff i screwed up, well it doesn't really matter, i know it wasn't right but hey, i have good reasons for what i did. but i'm going to get those people back for what they did to me.'

christianity doesn't make any excuses. god demands perfection. can you do it?

if not, that's why jesus was sent. not only to restore us back to God (to revive us to life, a more permanent one), but also to enable us, right here and now, to better (and maybe eventually perfectly?) follow that golden rule, to always treat others properly. regardless of how they treat us. he won't make us do that, but if we want to he will enable us to.

jesus did not just talk the talk, he walked the walk, right through torture and execution, during which his almost-last words were 'father forgive them, for they know not what they do.'

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Message 19/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  05:19 PM   -   RE: Faith

psylichon

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Thank you Jamie, Nomad. That's exactly the goods I was looking for. Real, down to earth, personal experience.

When i was much younger (over 15 years ago), I was at a Christian conference with my mother that we went to every year. They have hands-on prayer sessions there, and I went up one night to have them pray for my asthma (which was pretty bad back then). My experience was not so euphoric, but I did feel an overwhelming sense of something beyond myself... perhaps for the first time in my life. My ashtma nearly disappeared for years.

Years down the road, I've noticed my asthma has kinda followed the "track record" of my faith. It's never gotten as bad as it was when I was younger (despite all my attempts to make it so with all the wonderful things I smoke), but it was definitely at its lowest level when my faith was strong. I've never forgotten the correlation.

The thing that dissapoints me is that throughout high school, I never felt a personal experience like that again to keep my faith strong. And believe me, I really wanted it... I would pray all the time, actively searching out for some kind of sign. I spent a lot of time really listening, and hearing nothing. After a while, I gave up.

Then after reading much on philosophy and science, I no longer felt the need for the metaphors of the church (any church, that is). To me, the whole concept of The Trinity, sacrifice, and redemption just seems entirely too complicated and unncessary. It's like everything else that's natural that humans take, try to explain and codify into law, an organization... it all gets too messy and human interests too often get in the way. I have a hard time putting my faith in a book written by humans. I don't think anyone really needs a book to know God. What would have happened if we never developed language? God would never be known to us?

Everywhere I look, I see the simplicity of nature and life. My faith is now powered by this simplicity. I find in modern science, paricularly partical physics, beautiful ways of looking at the world. Though many people think scientists are trying to remove the "need" for a god, they are more often than not proving his existence. Deeper and deeper symmetries are being discovered in an attempt to make the universe as simple to understand as possible.

I recognize that no theory will give a complete description of absolute reality. An equation on a piece of paper has no power to create a universe. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't still try to find that equation! We were given the ability to probe our universe for a reason, and we keep coming up with incredibly clever ways to do it. I think the search may end up a great, never ending hall of mirrors, but at each turn we learn more about ourselves and humanity and what our place is in the universe.

I really have to go for now, but I have more to say...

psylichon

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Message 20/188                 Date: 24-Sep-02  @  06:26 PM   -   RE: Faith

errata

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I gathered from the intitial post on this thread that you were looking for a christian only perspective. You nearly said as much.

It strikes me as odd that you would admonish the crew in another thread for not allowing true debate and then hogtie our repsonses in this thread... Would you like the perspective of someone raised catholic who abandonded christianity? And why? For a very dedicated practice in another religion? I don't normaly talk about it because it's rarely welcomed, but perhaps a perspective outside of your immediate awareness might be desireable, such as it is.

I honestly get the impression that you wanted the likes of Jamey to respond and no one else. This does seem an odd place to solicit witnesses to the revival... If I'm mistaken, let me know.

e

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