Original Message                 Date: 28-Feb-02  @  09:02 PM   -   Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

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Hey folks, just some food for thought...

We all hear things like, digital isn't as warm as analog, and while I'm not here to argue that specifically, did you ever think about why that is? Outside of some of the basic physical properties, you'd think the two mediums wouldn't be that divergent.... and in some sense, maybe they're not. Now I'm gonna try a little heresy...

Maybe the reason mixes from analog sounds warmer, more musical, whatever, is: our techniques for recording, mixing, etc., are mostly built and modeled on analog experience. We've learned techniques for, say mic placement, that were establised in the analog realm... maybe we should be evaluating new ways of doing things....?

I mean think about one of the most basic differences between the two mediums, the level meter... Many of us that came from the analog world were sorely surprised to find out we couldn't push the LEDs "past the red" on a digital board... Now once I learned how to use digital LEDs, mt life, and my mixes, sounded better...

I'm not really trying to lay out new "rules" of digital recording/mixing, but just bouncing the idea off you all. If you have any experience with what I'm on about here, by all means share it. If you got a "warm sound" from all digital equipment, what was your methodology? Why do you think it worked that way? If you captured a digital take of a vocalist that just simply shimmers, did you do it the "traditional" (i.e., basically as it's always been done on analog equipment) way, or did you find a technique that is exclusive to digital?

Anyhoos, just some thoughts....

Peace All

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Message 11/157                 Date: 02-Mar-02  @  12:20 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

influx

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how about analog just plain sounds a bit different, but barely enough for anyone except the most experienced ear to even notice

anyone else is just full of shit and going according to what theyve been told

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Message 12/157                 Date: 02-Mar-02  @  12:41 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

milan

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hmm... has anyone brought up physics yet?

i remember reading the following bit somewhere:

the distortion caused by tubes or analogue tape apparently tends to exagerate harmonic overtones (2nd, 4th, etc), which (supposedly) sounds subjectively warm to human ears. if i remember corectly, transistor technology can amplify uneven (enharmonic) overtones which sound harsh to our ears, if not designed correctly.

its not clear to me why transistors should sound brash if most of analogue gear is constructed around this technology. of course, it has a lot to do with design and parts used.

as for digital, i guess that the old "digital sounds cold" rumour comes from early days of digital when bitrates and sampling frequencies were low, resulting in aliasing and linear distortion. (or was it the non linear distortion in the converters?). another possibility is that people were so used to hearing the distortion caused by analogue equipment, so when clear and precise digital technology was introduced, it naturaly sounded "less warm" which was easy to mistake for "cold and brash".

anyhow, you make your digital sound as warm as anything by using tape saturation plugins and whatnot, so i wouldnt sweat it too much.

any other opinions on this?

cheers, M.

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Message 13/157                 Date: 02-Mar-02  @  12:45 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

milan

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crap. i just realised that most of my post was already covered by brett and knowa. well i´m not gonna erase it now after all this typing! :-[

good nite.

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Message 14/157                 Date: 02-Mar-02  @  12:47 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

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"A" for honesty, herr Influx...=) While that really does answer the question in the least complex terms, I was hoping to give something a bit more expanded. Let me run this bit o' gibberish past you:

Analog has been the standard for audio for as long as we've been tracking. What is happening now is that the standard is being challenged. Analog and digital don't operate exactly the same way, nor does one acheive the same exact results using the two approaches (or a hybrid thereof). While the very high-end is still considered to be analog, digital systems are approaching the fidelity of the best analog systems. The perceived differences betwixt the two mediums are growing more minimal, even as the world around us grows more digital. Maybe the technology is just getting "that good" and maybe we're just getting used to it (i.e., the standard is changing...). In the end, it's still not the system that matters, but the end result....

That seem a logical train of thought?

Peace

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Message 15/157                 Date: 02-Mar-02  @  12:49 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

milan

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"analog sounds a bit different, but barely enough for anyone except the most experienced ear to even notice."

now thats either bullshit or i must have some good fucking ears.

ok, now i´m gone. o.u.t.

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Message 16/157                 Date: 02-Mar-02  @  12:51 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

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ayeh milan, but I appreciate the opinions nevertheless... it dunna hurt if ye happen to have a lot of the same opinions as some of the others.... that's kinda what I'm after, a really roughed out consensus. Keep it humming.... and thanks to all you lot for taking the time to give me yer take on this stuff....

Peace

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Message 17/157                 Date: 02-Mar-02  @  12:54 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

milan

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ok ok ok... i´m not quite gone yet.

i think the only reason why the realy high end is still analog is because it costs a lot and is henca considered to be more exclusive. i mean, a tape machine for 50k USD and a mixer for 200k vs pro tools and apogee converters? digital would still be cheaper, and at a kick ass quality. my 2p. (and then some  

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Message 18/157                 Date: 02-Mar-02  @  01:07 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

influx

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milan...youre gonna tell me that if I track a synthline to a good hard disk system through top notch AD converters, and then through a nice desk to tape, youre gonna know the difference in the mix?

or..if the whole mix goes to disk vs tape, you will without question be able to tell?

well then more power to ya

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Message 19/157                 Date: 02-Mar-02  @  02:36 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

damballah

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now what would the point of that be? I could see the point of getting all anal and prissy about it if the end result was to be an audiophile recording of a jazz group or a string quartet or something like that. but some of the stuff people are doing these days is only hitting DA converters on playback. or going through so many AD and DA conversions that that's part of the sound.

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Message 20/157                 Date: 02-Mar-02  @  12:09 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

milan

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influx... if you send signal to tape with intention of getting tape saturaion, meaning pushing the levels slighty, then probably yes i would. but if you are tracking to hi-end tape aiming for a clean unaffected sound, than probably no.

i am only saying this because i actually did track to "good hard disk system through top notch AD converters", and then send the signal "through a nice desk to tape" to see what a difference would be. and guess what, there was a difference. fuck, i´m listening to it right now and it does sound pretty warm to my ears. then again, if i didnt have a chance to experiment maybe i wouldnt? i just know it sounds sweet.

anyway, as i was saying before, i dont sweat "true analog" sound too much because it IS attainable thru other tools. anyone tried PSP Vintage Warmer? it works wonders for me on a daily basis!

Cheers, M.

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