Original Message                 Date: 05-Jul-00  @  03:22 PM   -   How to Key Records?

Ballboy

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I, ve a couple of questions here. What is the best way to establish the key a record is made in? and secondly if say for example you've keyed a record as being made in a C what other keys are likly to sit well with this? Now i don't need any bullshit answers from pricks who say use yours ears peabrain etc... I DJ and have done for many years and know when one track sounds bad with another because they are out of key. The reason i want to know is more for in the production field when using samples and pitch shifting etc..I spoke a few years back to a DJ called Anthony Papa from DMC who showed me a key chart that had on it what keys went well together and possibly, I cant quite remember,how to key a record. I have since e-mailed DMC on this but thought you helpful Bunch at Dancetech might be able to help ,or have seen these key charts. Someone else has told me that this may be a musical theory called CADENCES, anyone,anyone?Well I'll leave the finer points of this disscusion till i,ve received from feedback on this topic, but it is basically to help me learn more about key relationships and therfore save time in the studio.Look forward to some interesting chat with all u musical wizards out there. BB

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Message 11/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  04:10 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

arska

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..here's a link for you ballface...
If you haven't got perfect pitch you need a reference to establish key. A guitar or a keyboard. The new Roland "groove approved" mc-307 appears to have a slider for controlling both bpm and pitch independently. One would guess it might be a useful thing for a dj for checking bpms and keys on records. But Of course, you should buy a fucking sampler instead.

After one discussion about scales and keys on this forum i started to check these on a mix cd that i got with some mag, it was muzik or mixmag; progressive house set by some bald bloke. Interestingly enough, those tunes were mostly "aiolian" minor scale based and often the guy mixed them along the circle of fifths! that is, from a to d to g etc. So the cadence thing apparently isn't bullshit! (i'm not a dj)

Is 2 bpm increase much? What about Showing films on tv?
European PAL tv shows films (24 frames/second) at 25 frame per second. That would mean if i'm correct that a 120 bpm tune on celluloid is 124.8 on telly... movies don't appear accelerated... slightly off topic, but interesting....

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Message 12/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  05:02 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

arska

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... try this, goes beyond the first link...

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Message 13/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  05:42 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

ballbagface

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look arska my name is 'BALLBAGFACE' not fucking 'ballface' so get it right

and i already have a fuckin sampler or 2

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Message 14/19                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  07:17 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

arska

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..who gives djs a bad name

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Message 15/19                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  03:20 AM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

ville

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Hey Pongoid!!
what's the matter with you? Ok it's obvious that the guy doesn't know shit about theory but isn't this kind of forum where you can ask advice?!?!
Arska's links on harmonic mixing does seem to make sense. (6% pitch increase/disincrease is the same as one halfsteps. (Cmajor with +6% is Dbmajor))
So cut that "fuck off rookie" -attitude , will u.

ville vaan

bytheway splurt1 is wicked

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Message 16/19                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  05:54 AM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

Jasper

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do you mean top dj's are producers too in that they release really boring tracks that are good for mixing rather than really good tracks that are difficult to mix?

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Message 17/19                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  07:38 AM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

ggehiere

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Not that I'm anxious to jump into the shit-storm that's
going on in this thread, but any DJs out there reading
this thread should probably realize that alot of
musicians don't like most DJs, who play records
produced by musicians like us, and get all the big
money and all the credit.

We have spent years buying gear, learning it,
experimenting and studying, instead of buying records
and playing parties.

And most of us don't want to see DJs turn producers,
using all their DJ connections to get their tracks
heard.

For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents on finding the
key of record (but not the pitch):

Play a section of the record over and over until you
find the corresponding note on the keyboard. Good luck,
because if th epitch is the slightest bit off between
the record and the keyboard, an untrained ear will
never find the right note. This is why everyone
recommends using your ears, and brain. It is easier,
but takes practise.

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Message 18/19                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  02:53 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

Pongoid

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Buttboy, and Ballbaglicker, what a combo. More ignorance than I would want to shake a stick at, you two are classic examples as to why DJ's get so little respect from musicians. You can get all the respect you want from producers who do most of your engineering for you, and make a buck off of you while you have your moment of fame, but from musicians, it's a different story. You both have come in here with half-baked, stupid ideas, that don't work, and when you get told that they are WRONG, you throw little hissy fits. So who's the uninteresting, ignorant twerp?

Ballbaglicker, don't even try to fuck with me, you miserable little turd. I'll eat you up like you weren't even there. The best you can do is say 'yeah...what he said!!!!' You and Buttboy can sit back, shut the fuck up, accept the fact that you are wrong, and try to learn from your fuck-ups, or you can lie there and suck on each other for all eternity, when you're not putting out boring, pointless, rehash, commercial poo, for other idiots like yourselves to buy. Either way, I really don't care, as you are both showing yourselves to be quite uninterested in learning, rather just shit stirring, so why don't you give me one good reason for not fucking off, and hiding like the useless little brainless dolts that you portray?


Ville:

The pitch to percent thing works for plain tones, but for pieces of music it's pointless, unless the bpms are the exact same percentage different, and the cadences are identical, or you just end up with a senseless mass of sound that doesn't work melodically or rythmicly. If you're gonna try to play by the rules, you have to know them to play by them, and know them even better than that to break them properly. these guys know neither, so they need to learn or do something else. My problem? They have offended me and wish to continue doing so. Plain and simple.


Ape


Ape

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Message 19/19                 Date: 08-Jul-00  @  03:01 PM   -   RE: How to Key Records?

sitar

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ggehiere got only part of it. If the pitch is the slightest bit off between the record and the keyboard someone with an untrained ear will probably find half a dozen pitches that sound just fine. You have to train your ear if you want to begin thinking about matching pitch to pitch. 2bpms will make a difference in the pitch. Think of it this way. Take 2 voices in a song and seperate them. Now change the pitch on one of them enough to cause a 2bpm difference between the timing of the 2 voices and see how little time it takes for them to go noticibly out of sync with eachother rythmically. Not long. So you might be willing to live with the slight difference in pitch and 2bpm is relative to your initial tempo, but as you said you are starting to learn theory which is great. Doing some eartraining with that will help too. Eartraining has helped me immensely. And I think Pongoid's car analogy is a good one.

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