Original Message 1/157                 Date: 28-Feb-02  @  09:02 PM   -   Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

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Hey folks, just some food for thought...

We all hear things like, digital isn't as warm as analog, and while I'm not here to argue that specifically, did you ever think about why that is? Outside of some of the basic physical properties, you'd think the two mediums wouldn't be that divergent.... and in some sense, maybe they're not. Now I'm gonna try a little heresy...

Maybe the reason mixes from analog sounds warmer, more musical, whatever, is: our techniques for recording, mixing, etc., are mostly built and modeled on analog experience. We've learned techniques for, say mic placement, that were establised in the analog realm... maybe we should be evaluating new ways of doing things....?

I mean think about one of the most basic differences between the two mediums, the level meter... Many of us that came from the analog world were sorely surprised to find out we couldn't push the LEDs "past the red" on a digital board... Now once I learned how to use digital LEDs, mt life, and my mixes, sounded better...

I'm not really trying to lay out new "rules" of digital recording/mixing, but just bouncing the idea off you all. If you have any experience with what I'm on about here, by all means share it. If you got a "warm sound" from all digital equipment, what was your methodology? Why do you think it worked that way? If you captured a digital take of a vocalist that just simply shimmers, did you do it the "traditional" (i.e., basically as it's always been done on analog equipment) way, or did you find a technique that is exclusive to digital?

Anyhoos, just some thoughts....

Peace All

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Message 2/157                 Date: 28-Feb-02  @  09:12 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Brett B

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analog sounds warmer because you can go over on it creating a small amount of saft distorion. This rounds the edges on the wave making it fuller and softer sounding. It is in a sense compresion. Digital signals can not go over without creating harsh distorion. So the sound is recorded at a lower level and what is there is recorded with no coloration. Thus remainign sharp and crisp. I personlly like the highs digital captures. analog seems to soften them a lot, but the mids and lows of analog tape are much richer in content because of the tape satuation"compresion" that is occuring when you push the levvel up near the threshold.

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Message 3/157                 Date: 28-Feb-02  @  09:13 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

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One other bit.... Obviously, there's gonna be a lot of things that are the same in either medium... to use the analogy of painting: oil painting and watercolor are very different, yet on occasion I see someone do a painting that I assume is, say, an oil painting at first glance, but upon closer inspection I realize it's actually watercolor.... or vice versa... That's kinda what I'm getting at about how we do things.... If a watercolor artist wants to create an effect that is usually done with oil, they have to figure out a way to do it based on the particular characteristics of water colors... in other words they can't just do what the oil painter does to achieve the effect, they have to create another way to approach it in order to get a similar result with their different medium....

So, if digital based engineers want to achieve an effect, like warmth or whatever, that is somewhat characteristic of analog, what methods might they use, or use differently, to achieve that result.

Pax

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Message 4/157                 Date: 28-Feb-02  @  09:18 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

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Brett - that's what the physical characteristics are, yes, but how does a digital engineer achieve that same thing... without resorting to using bits of analog gear to do so... are we going to use totally different techniques, or do we modify existing ones, or some other combination....

Also, the description you're giving is textbook... and partially that's what I'm after...i.e., basically realizing the differences betwixt the two mediums in the first place, but more so, how do we appreciate those differences with our ears? Why do we "like it" when the sound is "saturated, compressed, etc.?"

Peace

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Message 5/157                 Date: 01-Mar-02  @  12:51 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

influx

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buncha bullshit. 90% of these fuckers youre gonna hear from are just repeating what they've been told, or have read

I always thought that the true reason for the diff between digial and analog is that analog is...really...the TRUE SOUND...be it a synth, tape, etc. In most cases..like an analog synth..it is electricity being routed, whereas digital is a computer 'pretending' to do that same stuff

personally, I dont sweat it. I just track through a compressor that I like the way it sounds, and leave it at that

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Message 6/157                 Date: 01-Mar-02  @  05:33 AM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Brett B

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I guess I really didn't read fully what you were saying here. It was late last night. As for being academic, maybe I am, but my friends bring me their tracks for mix down. That is beside the point, but what isn't is that I have had no education thus far other than experience and experimentation. What I was saying was intended for a newbie , and didn’t have the focus to know what I was reading and who I was writing it too. My apologies

I have never really had the warmth I hear on older records or from using analog modeling synths. But I prefer a cleaner more in tune sound. Crisper highs and tighter lows. Analog tape tends to blur the low end a little into one sound which is great at times and also softens the highs. I was listening to an old tape, and I decided to download some of these old tracks off the internet, and they sounded so different. They were cleaner and crisper and not as loud. I realized the tape cassette and analog DJ mixer had created warmth in these tracks that wasn't there on the CD version. So I ran them through magneto and an RCL and they sounded more like the tape I had become used to listening to for ten years. I love the sound of my mixes I made back in 94 on , a then 5 year old realistic mixer with the VU meters. They were so warm and you never heard the change in the kick, they just blended together better than the new cleaner mixers and digital methods of recording, DAT, Cdr. etc.

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Message 7/157                 Date: 01-Mar-02  @  03:32 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

knowa

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what would count as a satisfying answer to the "why" question? I mean, we just like what we like, right? I mean, we can all throw around cliches about "warmth" "saturation" and "punchiness" but they are essentially meaningless unless you've heard examples of "warm" and "not warm" sounds. and anyone who's read Craig Anderton is gonna junp in with an "even order harmonic distortion" explanation, but that's just more "textbook" stuff, right? the standard psychology answer to the preference qustion is that familiarity breeds preference, though I'm not sure how this explanation would account for the fact that many people get excited by UNFAMILIAR sounds and musical structures, etc. Anyway, it will be interesting to see if future generation are so smitten with the "warm, punchy" sound of analog gear. they might just think it sounds kind of muffled.

he he influx, you cranky old sod, how is analog tape more "true" than a file on your HD? we just like that way that one medium behaves more than another, maybe just because all the Miles and Zepplin stuff we sweat records were recorded in the analog domain. but word, I don't sweat it either. I just 'why ask why' and play with my pulse. plus there are other important things, like what notes are played, and in which order. I think Plaid said that and I like that observation. I don't like Plaid's music though. cuz of the note order I think.

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Message 8/157                 Date: 01-Mar-02  @  04:09 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

xoxos

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you seem to be equating analog to magnetic tape recording, in addition to analog signal processing. tape has limitations as a recording medium as well. i'm expecting digital to be the most important format for my sound recording excursions.. with the advent of a sudden 35x velocity increase in semiconductor technology we should be getting faster signal processing in a few years that will clear up some of the loss with digital.

for me i just want it to come out like i put it together and vice versa right?

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Message 9/157                 Date: 01-Mar-02  @  07:16 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

bedwyr

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i want it to come out better.

ppl track into pro tools and then stick it on tape, then back to tools. of course, it's a luxury/pointless exercise they can afford. normal people don't give a shit about how things sound, they listen to their radio in the kitchen, from the bathroom.

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Message 10/157                 Date: 01-Mar-02  @  10:20 PM   -   RE: Why is digital less warm than....

Mindspawn

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Good answers/comments... Brett - wasn't digging at you, just clarifying mesef... no worries...

But anyhoos, knowa get me point... it isn't about a formula or whatever, we like it "because." Now aside from discussing what the physics are that make us "like it" is is truly just familiarity that makes most folks dig analog sounding bits more?

An' why ask why? Cos, I'm curious as to what you other yahoos think about this. I just did a little workshop for producers/engineers/artists, and that was a question I got asked several times (in various different ways) during the talk.... My patent answer was it dunna matter as long as the end result is good, but I dunna think that sunk in very well.... I don't want (nor do I think it would serve much purpose) to give these folk a lot of technical mumbo jumbo as to "why." I'd rather just give a butt-simple explaination that they can both grasp and appreciate....

Anyhoos, just rather curious if any of the rest of you lot had thought much about it as I'd like to give these folk that are doing the workshop a little "real-world" response from the boyz in the trenches....

Peace All

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