Original Message 1/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  02:29 AM   -   What the f&é

Pongoid

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What's with these DJs coming into the music theory forum, spouting blasphemy all of a sudden? People ask why musicians hate DJs, and I think I'm starting to figure out a solid answer. Starting to.

It's in part because they are getting a huge chunk of the musician's cake/respect without knowing shit about music, and without doing shit to get the musicians the respect the deserve. Instead, they are just keeping the kids ignorant, and feeding on them.

Another reason is that they treat music like a commodity, each track or sound, being just another asset for them to whip out during a set. I'm sure part of this is because of musicians making DJ tools as well. But there are a few of us out there trying to make pieces that stand on their own and are still danceable. A perfect example is the guy in the Vocal samples thread, wanting prepackaged lyrics for what is obviously going to be a prepackaged piece, rather than trying to find a musician to do the right job, and support that musician as an individual pro, and as a part of the musician community. Read the post, and you'll see so clearly what a little skiver this bastard is. The saddest part is that he doesn't even realize the lack of respect he has. Just sheer ignorance, like the drunk who staggers into church and pisses in the holy water by the door, then feels up the statue of Mary and asks her for a 'just a little kiss,...hun-urp-hunnyhhh' in his blinded state. How would the priest feel seeing that? Music is my religion, and I can tell you, it bothers me seeing the equivalent of that kind of ignorant behavior. Okay laugh, cuz at first it is funny, but it's not funny after a while, and after years it becomes obvious as a symptom of a very large problem of misunderstanding and coersion, combined with ignorance and apathy, thus not being very funny at all.

What can we do about this? What are YOU going to do about this, cuz you're either part of the solution or part of the problem.



Ape

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Message 2/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  02:30 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

Pongoid

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And yes, I did wake up on the wrong side of the floor this morning.


Ape

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Message 3/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  08:23 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

ggehiere

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I feel the pain, pongoid. Not to be a doom-sayer, but
the days where the DJ is revered as rock-star are going
to end, and soon.

DJs used to be the faceless hands behind the decks,
playing for the enjoyment of the audience - whom the
party was really about.

DJs today have it backwards - it's not about them, it's
about the audience. And the audience knows the DJs have
it backwards.

(This is with the exception of a few DJs who write
their own stuff and get it pressed, probably because
they make more money spinning their own tracks than if
they tried to do a live PA.)

Maybe more musicians need to do live PAs, and drum up
some attention. Releasing 1000 white-labels isn't going
to do anything for one's r

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Message 4/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  08:56 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

damballah

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Yes, those were a pair of the most retarded questions I've read in a while. Maybe k could set up a DJ Zone so those guys can yack among themselves without infecting the theory forum. I don't know about the audiences getting it or not. The best drawing club in town right now is the one running ads for Carl Craig and Josh Wink DJ sets in 112 pt. type. Not to pick on Jon the DJ, but how is it these people think their set of skills naturally translate into another? He says he's got midi down now. It's just a matter of time. It's kind of like someone who works in a gallery saying, "I've hung a lot of paintings. I know what a good painting is. It's a natural progression for me to paint myself." Without realising the years of dedication and study and work that went into being able to produce that quality of work. That sounds ridiculous, right? But somehow, this art form is different? Yeah, painters don't have vocal sample CDs, the poor bastards. They also don't have legions of kids with glow sticks and pacifiers inflating their egos. Key a record? I find a car key works pretty well. You can use a house key in a pinch. I prefer to play 'em on a turntable myself.

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Message 5/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  11:36 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

pict

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I don't think anyone who plays,scratches or otherwise fucks around with records on a turntable in front of an audience can be called a musician.They are at best entertainers not all musicians are entertainers and audiences want entertainment.I believe a lot of people like seeing/hearing mediocre talents on stage,screen and record because it makes them feel as if they could do it too and that really they are just as capable of producing that stuff as mr popstar/dj and they are right.I think people don't like excellence in general because it reminds them of how shit their own efforts really are.To become a really good musician requires intense practice,perseverance,obsessive dedication,and immense concentration that the average joe just doesn't have that's why most of what we hear on record or see on stage is mediocre and average.Anybody can figure out how to put a record on a turntable and figure out the controls and get to reasonable level of efficiency in a very short space of time because of this the average DJ thinks that a musical instrument can be sussed in about the same length of time and doesn't even realise the vast field of study that is attached to placing musical sounds together via musical instruments.Jon the DJ himself stated similar in a thread in the music/tech area I think that if you have some musical knowledge and can pass that on to the likes of Jon that can only be a good thing sooner or later he will realise that DJing has got nothing to do with musicianship.Please don't try and convince me that a turntable is a musical instrument two bags of crisps rubbed together rhythmically can be produce a musical sound it doesn't make them musical instruments.
DJs are only important in getting music heard all the rest of it bores me shitless, dexterity they say, try playing a saxophone,fiddle or a harp that's dexterity of an order that a DJ can never approach without musicians DJs wouldn't exist.

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Message 6/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  01:17 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

swanofnever

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i have to agree with pongoid all the way, these things really bother me, almost as much as companies like roland putting all their millons of dollars of potentially useful r&d into another mc-3000 groove piece of shit, instead of trying to do something useful/cool/new (like the fizmo... maybe not totally new, but definitely a step in the right direction...)

but as for pict, you've obviously never seen a real turntablist go to work... i'll agree that your standard dance dj has very limited, if any, musical skills, but i've got a friend who's been scratching for 6-7 years, and beleive me, you'll realize that "dexterity" thing is just plain wrong, i play sax/guitar/drums/paino, and i really have to say he's easily at my level, besides which you should hear the shit this guy comes up with... basically in the right hands turntables become real-time samplers (albeit limited), and i don't really think anyone can deny the musicality of sampling... you should check out the kid koala cd for a good example...

but yeah, the fact that music is basically being shit on by the gear industry, thousands of djs, and millions of stupid kids really gets me down sometimes...

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Message 7/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  01:48 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

Pongoid

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Yes, I will also admit there are exceptions. See turntablist who can scratch really well are regrded as such because they do have a certain grasp of rythmic theory. This IS music theory. I can listen to Q-bert and hear that he has some understanding. By the same token, I also hear some amazing MCs using very strong rythmic approach to the way they present words and ideas, so I can't discount them at all, but they are certainly more the exception than the rule, and are recognized as such. That's what makes them special, but this prepackaged shit, and the lack of respect from the majority of both musicians and audience still sickens and annoys me to the verge of insanity. I see perfect examples of this everywhere I go, and everywhere I play. I hope this will end soon. Audiences do not know that DJs have it backwards at all. Glad to see I'm not alone in seeing this and feeling this way. Big ups all. Let's fix this.



Ape

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Message 8/24                 Date: 06-Jul-00  @  03:45 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

pict

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Well the very best scratchers then could be compared to very good hand drummers in that they can do intricate rhythmic things with some fancy sound effects thrown in maybe you're into that but honestly I have seen these guys it does nothing for me not one miniscule iota of pleasure do I derive from it and even the most excellent turntablist could never hope to reach the levels of dexterity of Charlie Parker,John Coltrane and I can't be convinced otherwise.I don't like the sound of accordians particularly,same with turntables they just irritate the fuck out of me the difference is with these machines is that after a very short space of time you could fool some folks into thinking you were a good DJ but not so with a sax you will still sound shit unless you put a lot of work into it.It never pays to be presumptious in a debate Swan, you really don't know if I have witnessed a "real turntablist" it may well be I have witnessed many and don't rate them as highly as you.I think the average consumer wouldn't find it too taxing to listen to a full CD of sax or piano or guitar music on the other hand(the one not on the turntable;)I don't think there are many people who would like to listen to an hour plus of scratching.

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Message 9/24                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  10:47 AM   -   RE: What the f&é

damballah

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Thanks a lot for that mental image, pict. The military ought to incorporate turntablists into their psychological operations division. "Surrender now or we'll start scratching records."

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Message 10/24                 Date: 07-Jul-00  @  12:59 PM   -   RE: What the f&é

pict

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LOL!

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