Original Message 1/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  03:06 PM   -   Your approach to isolation...Please.

Defector Z

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Okay - so here's the thing...

I've been doing electronic music for over 2 years now. When I listen to a lot of professional and semi professional mixes, each "instrument" is well isolated. Everything seems to have a spot in the mix. The kik drum never seems to overlap with the bass line, competing synth lines are separate and distinct. I have a lot of trouble doing that. I don't know if my approach is wrong, if I'm simply selecting the wrong patches, or I am just not thinking out the box well enough.

A couple of things I have thought of that seem to have worked a little.

1. Filter the kik drum - remove anything under 80hz, and roll off the top so it doesn't go much higher than say 200. I'm still having trouble with the bass line though, as it often overlaps on the kik. Like the bass is from 60hz to 150. That's only if I'm using a sine. Use something else with a larger spectrum, and it starts overlapping the punch of a snare, or the lows on a thick synth.

2. Patch selection - I often pick a patch because it has a big sound. If I have that sine bass line rumbling, and the patch I select is a big fat synth, it overlaps on the highs of a sine, and though the hats and snares. If I roll off the lows on the synth, I lose the fatness of the synth part.

3. Am I hindering myself at all by recording everything live into the computer? Right now, when i record a track, I play the whole thing live and record it into a stereo track into cubase. So I have to do all the mixing on the desk real time. People have said that this is fine to do it this way - Mike Clarke scolded me for using that as an excuse, and I can see where he's coming from - but I wonder what other opinions are.

Okay that's for starters. What do you all think?

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Message 2/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  04:15 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

damballah

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No. 2 may be a problem. You ever see one of those charts of an orchestra and the tonal range covered by each instrument. Maybe select your patches that way, so each one covers a well defined region of the sonic spectrum. If each of your patches is as big and fat as possible, you end up with battling orchestras.

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Message 3/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  05:04 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Shpongled

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Hello Defector Z!

My synth(nova) has 6 parts and I can also adjust treble/bass of the parts. I use two of them to bassline. I roll off some bass frequencies from another part and use that bass sound whenever the bassline notes sounds at the same time with kick drum. Hope you can try it, maybe that helps you.  

Oh... and I wouldn't roll off everything below 80hz and above 200hz from kick. It usually has little 'clik' sound at the beginning which is above 200hz (800hz-1800hz ?). Everything below 80hz... hmm... maybe for drum n' bass but not for trance, house... No No!

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Message 4/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  06:24 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Defector Z

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Thanks guys.

Damballlllllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.................

I see what you're saying about patch selection, and I think I may need to change my approach a little bit. I often have 3 different synths going, and a bass line together at the apex of the song. You know - the culmination of the whole piece. Maybe I will try to get there with more use of percussion, rather than more synth sounds. Hmmmm....ideas. I just have to be very careful about the selection - a hat with a longer duration is going to occupy more space than a short click one....(just thinking out loud here).

Shpongled - I see what you are saying about the kick. Maybe if I adjust the attack of the filter on the kik (the esi4k has this), I can keep that original click. Or, I could layer a short fast attack fast decay kick that only gets hit when there is space for it. That way, the kik will have that click and boom when necessary.

As for rolling off the < 80hz, if my sine bass line is done around 60hz, how can I get the kik drum to boom down there, yet retain it's separation from the bass line? That's the part I struggle with, and why I have chosen to remove alot of the boom from the kick. Maybe for a club mix, I could get away with that, but for listening on my little speakers here at work, it will only sound messy.

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Message 5/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  07:10 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

johnny

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You're probably also choosing patches that sound great in isolation, but sound bad in a mix. Don't do this - choose sounds that fit well with each other. Very often, when you mix like this and solo the bass (for example) it sounds inappropriate on it's own - but bring everything else back in and it sounds magic. Same for the other sounds, notably the bass drum. Make the bass drum and bassline such that when they're overlaid they become greater than the sum of their parts. If you solo a part and it sounds amazing, it usually won't fit in a mix correctly. Patches pre-loaded into synths are there to impress casual auditions in shops (i.e not in a mix) so they're larger than life and generally unsuitable for mixing without certain tweaks.

Remember - when you solo, it should sound so-so. The track I'm doing now has a fantastic, fluid sub-bass rolling under the breaks. But when I solo it, the impression is 'where did the bass go?' See what I'm getting at?

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Message 6/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  07:24 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Defector Z

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I totally see what you're saying Johnny. Makes a hell of alot of sense. And you are right about the demo shop. I guess it's hard to see the big picture like that, though. Often, I find myself wrestling with the XT to try to tame it. MISTAKE! It doesn't want to be tamed. :-) But sometimes I do find myself trying to suck a little of the life out of a patch because it is too big. Nice when it's the only one going, but try mixing it and it gets awfully muddy.

Okay - here are my conclusions.

1. Find better patches

2. Use fewer patches at once

3. Use patches that compliment eachother better.

I think I can work with that. If you guys haven't already, I have a couple of the more recent productions up on my website - The End and Strangle Hold. If you wouldn't mind hogging your network resources to download the tracks to see if my self-assessment is on target? that would be very helpful.

But I can definitely work with this. thanks a ton.

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Message 7/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  10:14 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

k

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defector mate, it sounds like you are mixing not loud enuff and over compensating with eq ??

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Message 8/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  10:24 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

k

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also i should add, that if you work at isolating frequencies the result is bereft of any harmonic interaction between instruments.. iut is THESE sweet spots we are seeking to encourage - when the bass & kik is tuned in a certain way also influenced by the bassline, the booming bass & kik will merge sonically in a certain point to have an effect more than the sum of both in isolation. - like you hit some sorta resonant spot that empathises the groove and feel.

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Message 9/23                 Date: 03-Oct-00  @  11:23 PM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

Defector Z

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What do you mean I'm not "mixing loud enough". I don't understand...

As far as mixing the frequencies, I try very hard to get them to interact with eachother, I often choose two lead synths that have many similar characteristics so they CAN interact with eachother - but I often feel that they are competing with eachother - in a not so good way.

I also have had many people suggest I sort out the low freq's - and I notice as well that it is often muddy down there, and I am not sure what I am doing wrong. Know what I mean?

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Message 10/23                 Date: 04-Oct-00  @  04:43 AM   -   RE: Your approach to isolation...Please.

gs

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from my (limited) experience...

80hz is too high to roll off the kick you will lose all the oompf, try more like 40. don't remove the high frequencies cause that's the bit (the click) that will cut through the other sounds.

if the lows are muddy try cutting a bit from the kick/bass/other stuff around 200-300hz as that tends to be the mud section.

definately try using different sounds, 1 big sound and a few thinner/less dominating sounds rather than 3 fat monster patches.

don't forget panning, if u have 2 synth leads that have similar characteristics, pan them to different sides.

something like that.

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