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Subject: Make your DAW sound better easily


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Original Message 1/13                 Date: 20-Jul-05  @  09:17 AM   -   Make your DAW sound better easily

psylichon

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After reviewing this drunken chatroom rant about digital recording and mixing I had with a fellow DTer, I decided it would be more useful as an actual post than as a log somewhere on my hard drive destined to be lost someday.

so enjoy... the info is nothing new, just info I've culled thus far in my career:

[3:25am] man, dont tell me that... i was gonna give up on mixing in the box
[3:26am] <@psylichon> nah, itb can sound really fat
[3:26am] <@psylichon> it just takes getting used to
[3:26am] meaning?
[3:26am] <@psylichon> and not slamming your levels everywhere
[3:26am] <@psylichon> it's different than mixing analog
[3:26am] <@psylichon> the same rules don't apply
[3:26am] <@psylichon> headroom becomes virtual and relative
[3:27am] <@psylichon> gain structure becomes more important in regards to how hard you hit your plugins and how much space you leave for they're processing... more important than increasing your signal to noise ratio
[3:27am] <@psylichon> s/n issues are all in your analog frontend... digital gain is the cleanest in your studio, and few people use it
[3:28am] <@psylichon> they record shit all hot and then pull down the faders when they mix to make room for it all... pointless with a 24-bit system
[3:29am] <@psylichon> http://akwww.digidesign.com/support/docs/Mixing_in_the_Box.pdf
[3:29am] <@psylichon> d/l that and read it
[3:30am] <@psylichon> if you come to understand what it's saying, it will open your eyes on DAW mixing
[3:32am] my gripes with the PT sound have me begging for something better... i dunno. you bring up things like homework... it must be capable... i dunno if u understand. lately my results mixing in the box have been dissapointing.
[3:32am] hmm
[3:32am] <@psylichon> homework?
[3:33am] <@psylichon> you just need to undertand how pro tools works... its gain structure
[3:33am] <@psylichon> that article spells it out for you
[3:34am] i had a feeling gain had something to play in it... but i pissed myself hearing the undynamic shit the came about.... been months since i touched that shit
[3:34am] <@psylichon> well, a question for you
[3:34am] <@psylichon> when you record your individual tracks before mixing... you try to cut them as hot as possible without clipping right?
[3:35am] yeah... *grins
[3:35am] <@psylichon> well if you do that, then you use plugins, you're leaving no room for the extra gain the most plugins induce
[3:35am] <@psylichon> and bringing down the channel fader won't help as they're post-plugin
[3:35am] <@psylichon> so you're probably clipping the crap out of most of your plugins
[3:36am] <@psylichon> the thing to remember is this:
[3:36am] noshit?
[3:36am] <@psylichon> with a 24-bit system, it's not about "resolution" it's about "dynamic range"
[3:36am] <@psylichon> you don't have to "use all the bits"
[3:36am] <@psylichon> 24-bit converters have a dynamic range well over 120 dB signal to noise floor
[3:37am] <@psylichon> on your best day in the best recording studio with the best analog frontend you can buy, you'd be lucky if you get 105 dB s/n
[3:37am] <@psylichon> so increasing the gain of your preamp to "peg the meters into PT" will only increase the noise floor that much too
[3:38am] holy shit... i would have never thought it would do that
[3:38am] <@psylichon> you can generally safely cut with the peaks of your source hitting at -18 in PT and you can safely raise the gain digitally without losing resolution or imparting any noise whatsoever
[3:39am] <@psylichon> so cut conservatively, don't hit your mix bus hard, and simply use a compressor or limiter as the last part of your chain and raise the makeup gain there... be it 10-20 dB or more!
[3:39am] <@psylichon> it will be the cleanest, fattest sound you've ever gotten outta PT
[3:39am] <@psylichon> the dynamic range of PT's mix buss internally is ridiculous!
[3:39am] <@psylichon> it's a non-consideration
[3:39am] <@psylichon> read that paper
[3:39am] isnt that typical tho to leave a lot of headroom, like -20
[3:40am] <@psylichon> [3:34am] <@psylichon> when you record your individual tracks before mixing... you try to cut them as hot as possible without clipping right?
[3:40am] <@psylichon> [3:35am] yeah... *grins
[3:40am] <@psylichon> so which do you do?
[3:40am] ha
[3:40am] i didnt think it would apply to pt
[3:40am] <@psylichon> it applies to all 24-bit DAWs
[3:41am] <@psylichon> where it does not apply is analog... like tape
[3:41am] <@psylichon> in that case, you're trying to beat the inherent noise of the system... which is around 80-90 dB below your nominal signal level... which is a concern when you start compressing, because the noise floor becomes quite audible.
[3:42am] <@psylichon> with a 24-bit system, the noise starts over 120 dB down from your signal.... you can gain the fuck out of that and not add noise
[3:42am] <@psylichon> so basically there is no inherent noise with a digital system... cut conservatively
[3:42am] man, you speak truth... i had gotten some pretty good results out of a track that was recorded low and boosted with plugins
[3:43am] big range with 24 bit... neat stuff
[3:43am] i just didnt think it would matter... it was pt
[3:43am] <@psylichon> it's absolutely the truth, just people are so caught up in convention and they're clients are like "why are my waveforms so small... you suck!".... everyone's afraid to try it
[3:43am] <@psylichon> i have and it makes PT sound like a real mofo



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Message 2/13                 Date: 20-Jul-05  @  11:57 AM   -   RE: Make your DAW sound better easily

k

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well said that man  

here's that link again - live:

Mixing_in_the_Box.pdf

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 3/13                 Date: 20-Jul-05  @  05:26 PM   -   RE: Make your DAW sound better easily

beds

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with vsti some of those are well loud. so if you're planning on sticking a comp or something on them turn them down at source as well?

if your not planning on doing that is there an advantage to generally hitting the main outs lower and not just dragging the fader down when it starts to register clipping? (although i can't always hear it when it's going red)


psy has mentioned this before so when i'm recording some guitar or whatever, i generally let it hit around -10 ... though only because i'm lazy and can't be bothered getting the level as hot as i can.

i'd be wary of hitting it much lower though, it's not exactly the quietest of places in here.





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Message 4/13                 Date: 21-Jul-05  @  01:49 PM   -   RE: Make your DAW sound better easily

psylichon

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The noise floor of your place is irrelevant. Remember a 24-bit converter can accurately recreate over 120 dB of dynamic range (theoretcially, it covers even more range, but let's err on the conservative side). Now let's say you hook up a mic in your place and get it to a proper level for vocals, say, and look at the meter in your DAW when you're recording a "silent room". I'll bet it hovers around -60dB or so on a good day, given the noise in your place as well as the self noise of the mic and preamp itself.

So your noise floor is already 60 dB louder than the noise floor of a 24-bit recorder. So trying to get a hotter level by upping the gain on your preamp, or sticking a compressor with gain makeup before the A/D, you're also increasing your acoustic and analog noise floor. You gain no dynamic range and no resolution because rez only matters on useable dynamic range. Making your noisefloor louder is pointless.

Yes, I would turn down softsynths. It's freightening how many presets blatantly clip their own engines these days.





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Message 5/13                 Date: 21-Jul-05  @  01:49 PM     Edit: 21-Jul-05  |  01:51 PM   -   RE: Make your DAW sound better easily

psylichon

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*deleted* - double post



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Message 6/13                 Date: 21-Jul-05  @  10:35 PM   -   RE: Make your DAW sound better easily

k

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yeah, alot of people dont realise a nice 'quiet' room is not 'quiet' at all.

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 7/13                 Date: 22-Jul-05  @  12:26 AM   -   RE: Make your DAW sound better easily

psylichon

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Hell, our noise floor at work is about -66, and I think we have one of the tightest rooms in the area. Even in an anechoic chamber, though, once you put up a tube mic or crank the gain for a low-output dynamic (i.e. an sm57), you're gonna hear the noise of your analog gear anyway.



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Message 8/13                 Date: 22-Jul-05  @  10:44 AM   -   RE: Make your DAW sound better easily

k

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well 60-ish is average for a 'silent' room innit i thought  

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 9/13                 Date: 28-Jul-05  @  05:19 PM   -   RE: Make your DAW sound better easily

Rags

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Turning down softsynths? Well, if they don't overload the insert plugins on them what is the use? Well I haven't touched an analog piece of gear in my life (except FM radios and hifi amps) so maybe I shouldn't worry...



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Message 10/13                 Date: 02-Aug-05  @  11:33 AM   -   RE: Make your DAW sound better easily

Rags

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Ok I've read the document and while it could come pretty useful for someone using Pro Tools, it must be noted that the math description included (with all those figures about bits and faders, except dithering) does not apply to any DAW's using 32 bit floating point calculations, (basically all current decent "native" gear like: Cubase SX, Ableton Live, Reason, etc.. etc...).

Floating point arithmetics could retain precision even with very low levels without adding any "extra bits".

Also, Psy, what do you think about this idea of dithering on each and every track? Have you tried such things? For me it sounds scary to introduce dithering noise and let it all add up when individual tracks are mixed together...



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Message 11/13                 Date: 02-Aug-05  @  07:56 PM   -   RE: Make your DAW sound better easily

milan

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didnt read the document, but dithering noise is usually outside of audible frequency range as far as i know  



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Message 12/13                 Date: 03-Aug-05  @  10:32 AM   -   RE: Make your DAW sound better easily

Rags

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yeah, even with 24 bit its 6 db max, so its around -130 db and if we consider that it is even noise shaped... but... if you add dithering to each and every channel, doesn't it add up at the master bus?



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Message 13/13                 Date: 03-Aug-05  @  11:01 AM   -   RE: Make your DAW sound better easily

milan

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shouldnt be... as i said, dithering noise usually tends to be outside of audible *frequency* range... e.g., very high freq. noise and such.

here, read this:

"Improved Dithering Techniques
Where there's a will, there's a way. Although the required amplitude of the dither is about -96 dB, it's possible to shape (equalize) the dither to minimize its audibility. Noise-shaping techniques re-equalize the spectrum of the dither while retaining its average power, moving the noise away from the areas where the ear is most sensitive (circa 3 KHz), and into the high frequency region (10-22 KHz).

Here is a picture of one of the most successful noise-shaping curves (courtesy of Meridian Audio, Ltd).



As you can see, it is a very high-order filter, requiring considerable calculation, with several dips where human hearing is most sensitive. The sonic result is an incredibly silent background, even on a 16-bit CD. The 0 dB line is around -96 dBFS in this diagram.

There are numerous noise-shaping redithering devices on the market. Very high precision (56 to 72 bit) arithmetic is required to calculate these random numbers. One box uses the resources of an entire DSP chip just to calculate dither. The sonic results of these new noise-shaping techniques range from very good to marvelous. The best techniques are virtually inaudible to the ear. With 72-bit arithmetic, all the dither noise has been pushed into the high frequency region, which at -60 or -70 dB is still inaudible. Critical listeners were complaining that the high frequency rise of the early noise-shaping curves changed the tonality of the sound, adding a bit of brightness. But it turns out that it is the shape of the curve in the midband that affects the tonality, due to masking. Two or three of the latest and best of these noise-shaping dithers are tonally neutral, to my ears. It took a long time to get there (about 10 years of development), but now we can say that the best of these processors yield 19-20 bit performance on a 16-bit CD, with virtually no tonal alteration or loss of ambience from the 24-bit source.

Noise-shapers on the market include: db Technologies model 3000 Digital Optimizer, Meridian Model 618, Sony Super Bit Mapping, Waves L1 and L2 Ultramaximizers, Prism, POW-R, and several others. When using dithering plugins, be sure to use them with the right version of workstation software to retain a 24-bit wordlength until the final mastering step.

Apogee Electronics produced the UV-22 system, in response to complaints about the sound of earlier noise-shaping systems, declaring that 16-bit performance is just fine. They do not use the word "dither" (because their noise is periodic, they prefer to call it a "signal"), but it smells like dither to me. Instead of noise-shaping, UV-22 adds a carefully calculated noise at around 22 KHz, without altering the noise in the midband."

(copied from http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule_id=11/pmdmode=fullscreen/pageadder_page_id=27/)



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