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Subject: Standalone D-A necessary?


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Original Message 1/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  05:43 AM   -   Standalone D-A necessary?

influx

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I was thinking Id like to try to start running my mixes through say a 16ch analog board...one that has that "sound"...maybe an old soundcraft or A&H...

JUST to set levels and panning pretty much, and the output buss. Maybe get one good compressor to put on the mains...

so..at first I thought maybe get like a hammerfall or something...say 16-24adat outs, and then maybe a Swissonic DA24 or the like

and then I thought well hell...two delta 1010s woud give me 16 outs..or two 2408s?

so my question is, are the DAs on these things "sufficient?" Is it really necessary to get standalone DA converters? Theyre not cheap!

another option would be the Hammerfall with a couple of the 8 out expansions?

and then that goes back to..is there really a point to breaking things out? does it really sound more "open"?

I guess thats why I want to try..to see if I like the way it sounds..you know...crank the channels a bit...see what the FX sound like comin off the PC through a mixer..etc?

hit me with some thought here, fellas! damballah? Psy? Mindspawn? Anyone else with experience with this?



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Message 2/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  06:28 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

d

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There's a diminishing returns thing with all this: you can get some degree of quality spending not a whole lot up to a point and then every little improvement costs you a whole lot. An apogee DA-16 would run you, what, 2800US or so new, and you'd still need sumpin like an RME 9636 to feed it lightpipe signals (and some people contend the apogee's sound ain't all that). MOTU's 24i/o system's about half what the Apogee DA is. Does it sound that much inferior? Maybe if you're mixing some audiophile jazz records, but otherwise... I dunno. Also, does motu's stuff behave any better with winders than it used to?

yes, getting your ad and da out of the environs of the computer does help.



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Message 3/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  06:56 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

psylichon

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High-end A/Ds and D/As can make the last bit of difference in your chain. My boss (who is a sick fucking audiophile) claims his Apogee PSX-100 delivers warmer digital mixes on the master buss than analog. Of course, having 24 channels of that quality would be serious overkill, but it does make a difference.

But not for what you do. Get a 2408 or Hammerfall (both great converters with expandability) and get the signal in a nice warm board. It will make a difference, especially for drums. But don't be tempted to run EVERYTHING through it.... some things should be clean  

psy



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Message 4/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  07:22 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

influx

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right, but I dont have to OD everything. I mean..if its not gained up at all, just where it belongs, itll stay clean, no?

I need to research something with 16 analog outs. heck maybe even 24 

nah..16 would be enough. group the drums, etc...



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Message 5/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  08:06 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

smudge

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Hiya Influx

I am running three delta 410's (24 outs) through a Mackie 32:8:8 with outboard focusrite compression, Lexicon verbs and TC delays. Best of both worlds I reckon. I'm going to have a ramble now. So I don't use verb, delay or compression plug-ins (but I am after that vintage warmer for indivdual tracks) and I overload the gain pots for distortion so don't bother with distortion plugs either. I think running 24 card outs down a analogue board replaces some of that "digital glassey" sound that some people get when mixing inside the computer. Hope that helps.



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Message 6/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  08:15 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

Influx

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well...sure...thats the point. so maybe the deltas are ok, too

Ill be using plugins tho. Im not about to go buy racks of gear again.

anyone ever use the old A&H SR series boards? they make a 16...



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Message 7/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  08:31 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

Influx

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24 channels of input and output^^^^

only need OUTPUT tho!

looked at RME. Get the digi9636 and two AEO-8s, would give me 16 channels of analog out, but on unbalanced cables (they use send/return cables to do it)

looked at ST Audio, too, but to get 16ch would require TWO dsp24 cards, and TWO of DACIIIs

then theres M-Audio, and I guess I could get two delta 1010s, or two 410s, but I dont like the RCAs on the 410s

heh.



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Message 8/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  09:34 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

smudge

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what does rca stand for again?



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Message 9/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  10:09 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

smudge

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their gold plated and everything.



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Message 10/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  10:20 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

psylichon

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I would get a second-hand mk2 or 3 MOTU 2408 and a Presonus Digimax LE for the second bank of 8 analogs. Or a used ADAT.

psy



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Message 11/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  10:23 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

psylichon

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wait, digimax may be A/D only.... [shrug]



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Message 12/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  01:54 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

99devils

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I was gonna suggest the 24I/O. Perfect solution.

-Craig



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Message 13/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  03:03 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

smudge

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yea but your paying for all the inputs aswell. Quality wise, its probably the best solution but he could get 3 delta cards for about £400 cheaper.



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Message 14/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  04:12 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

99devils

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I'd rather not deal with the issues you're gonna hit trying to run three delta cards in one PC.

-Craig



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Message 15/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  06:46 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

Influx

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and I dont have 3 free PCI slots either. or do I?

but..what about the issues with MOTU and PCs?

too bad they dont just make a 24O! 



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Message 16/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  08:03 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

beds

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psy has a motu running fine, dontcha?

i think it's an old issue.



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Message 17/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  09:01 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

99devils

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I do too. We're both running ECS K7S5As (SiS 735 Chipset). Works fucking great, and Psy mentioned great latency in his setup.

-Craig



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Message 18/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  10:02 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

Influx

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dope

so the 24IO runs on a PCI424 card then?

I'ma have a looksee



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Message 19/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  10:12 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

psylichon

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Yeah I picked up my used mk1 2408 for $250 and have been giggling about it ever since. My MOTU midi interface ceased to work when I upgraded to WinXP, so I got a midiman, but I've experienced no problems with the 2408 yet. WDM, ASIO, GSIF... they all work very very well. And I can keep the buffers at 64 samples for 1.5 ms latency, even with a reasonable mix running. I was, and continue to be, impressed. Thinking about upping from my 1800 to a 2700+ or something to see if I can get negative latency ;)


psy



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Message 20/43                 Date: 21-Jul-03  @  11:37 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

Influx

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wow. $1400 for the 24I/O

argh.



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Message 21/43                 Date: 22-Jul-03  @  11:41 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

j-type

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i'd personally go with a hammerfall with the 2x 8 outs cards, balanced/unbalanced isn't going to make that much difference unless your environment is unduly noisy.

as for having the converters on the card, inside the PC - not that important. the lynx cards have their converters onboard, and i don't know of any better sounding cards than those. the quality of design of the converter stage is FAR more important than where it's placed  



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Message 22/43                 Date: 22-Jul-03  @  01:49 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

99devils

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It's that expensive? In that case you'd be better off with 3 2408s off of ebay. You can drive them all off of one card.

-Craig



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Message 23/43                 Date: 22-Jul-03  @  06:00 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

Influx

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Ive got a Digi98/8 PST right now and unfortunately Im hearin PC noise off it. really sucks

that makes me hesitant

but..the RME might be the cheapest solution. I wish I could put TWO AE8s on the 96/8, but alas, only one



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Message 24/43                 Date: 22-Jul-03  @  08:38 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

psylichon

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no cpu noise from MOTU (external converters). Can't say that about any internal A/D's I've ever heard.



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Message 25/43                 Date: 22-Jul-03  @  09:04 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

Influx

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yeah, see? I mean..it almost seems impossible to NOT have noise on an internal converter.

argh argh argh argh ARGH!



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Message 26/43                 Date: 22-Jul-03  @  10:16 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

d

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i'd think if your line-ins on the mixer are +4 balanced, that's what you'd wanna feed 'em.



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Message 27/43                 Date: 22-Jul-03  @  10:52 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

Influx

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me too. but then most mixers accept both, no?

whats your take on the internal conversion, d?



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Message 28/43                 Date: 22-Jul-03  @  10:57 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

j-type

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hmm, no CPU noise evident with my HDSP9632, must be faulty hehe  

if you're still paranoid about internal converters, what about the RME PCI interface coupled with their external Multiface?



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Message 29/43                 Date: 23-Jul-03  @  02:35 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

Influx

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not enough outs 



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Message 30/43                 Date: 23-Jul-03  @  12:06 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

smudge

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Craig - I'm running 3 delta 410's under windows XP with NO problems. It did take a couple of attempts to configure it properly but now it runs without any problems.



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Message 31/43                 Date: 23-Jul-03  @  05:21 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

Influx

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still dont like the RCA connectors, and thats three PCI cards 



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Message 32/43                 Date: 23-Jul-03  @  06:01 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

smudge

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what's wrong with gold plated phono to jacks? :-)



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Message 33/43                 Date: 23-Jul-03  @  08:27 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

Influx

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nothing WRONG but I want balanced outputs, which rules out a lot of pieces.

RCA..just...doesnt seem like a solid connection for "studio" gear IMO



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Message 34/43                 Date: 23-Jul-03  @  09:32 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

99devils

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My opinoin too. Plus, I'm still leery of using that many sound cards. You may get it to work on a particular motherboard but I wouldn't want to try that over and over (but I am glad it works for you   ).



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Message 35/43                 Date: 23-Jul-03  @  10:42 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

j-type

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RCA phonos are better than jacks for semi-permanent connections. snug fit, large contact area between plug and socket. take away a jack plug's barrel and you've only got a bendy bit of metal resting on the plug's surface... not what i'd call a solid connection!



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Message 36/43                 Date: 24-Jul-03  @  08:19 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

smudge

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yea I know what you mean Craig. It did take a couple of goes as I said but now its perfect.



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Message 37/43                 Date: 24-Jul-03  @  11:04 AM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

BluStudio

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cant you have a go of those apogees you were selling for that guy? They are the D/A's that are defo going to be one of my next buys- if i had the $ i would have given you a shout on those big time

Blu



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Message 38/43                 Date: 24-Jul-03  @  12:41 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

ahahahahaha

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ahahhahahahahahahahahahahhehehehehehheheehhahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahhehehehhehehehehehehhehehehehehehehehhhahahahahahhaahahah!


Influx tried to be all "technical" but got shot down by J Type!


AHahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahaahahahahhahahahhehehehehehehehehehehehhehehehahhahahahahhahahahahaheheheheheheheheheheh!



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Message 39/43                 Date: 24-Jul-03  @  02:02 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

99devils

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I know I'd have to spend about $200 on new cabling if I were to have to convert to RCA jacks  



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Message 40/43                 Date: 24-Jul-03  @  03:22 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

smudge

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yes, it's called www.studiospares.com



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Message 41/43                 Date: 24-Jul-03  @  06:09 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

Influx

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that was fucking lame. I wasnt trying to be "all technical" in the slightest

whoever you are asshole, why dont you show your "face" if youre gonna talk shit. I didnt get "shot down" in the slightest.

If RCAs are so good, why doesnt anyone use them?

A)because theyre not balanced. Studios often want balanced systems.

b)sorry, but they ARENT solid. Ive seen em snap many times



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Message 42/43                 Date: 24-Jul-03  @  10:30 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

j-type

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decent ones ARE solid, i've had plenty of jacks crap out in my time but my all-metal, gold-plated RCAs (you get what you pay for) are fine.

why doesn't anyone use them? they do, they're quite popular for S/PDIF i hear :-) it's just that they are for SEMI-PERMANENT connections and aren't meant to be unplugged all the time.



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Message 43/43                 Date: 24-Jul-03  @  11:38 PM   -   RE: Standalone D-A necessary?

influx

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still not balanced 



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