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Subject: Kick Vs Bass. Again.


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Original Message 1/30                 Date: 12-Mar-03  @  10:37 AM   -   Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Filthy McNasty

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How do you lot balance, mix and eq your kick and bass tracks. I read lots of stuff on the net saying that if you use a thick, heavy sounding bass then you have to use a toppy, acoustic sounding kick. Hmmm. I’m not sure about this. I can see where their coming from but none of my favourite producers seem to HAVE to do this on their tracks.

The second thing that really seems to annoy me is how all these articles say that if you “have to” use a heavy sounding kick, then you SHOULD ONLY play a bassline that doesn’t fall on any quarter notes (kicks). That’s rubbish. I don’t want to sound “trance” or proggy”.

Thirdly, all these articles across the WWW talk about viewing your mix as a jigsaw and finding “a pocket” for every sound. Now I can understand that but if the kick and bass occupy the same frequencies then what do you do? I have a Mackie desk so I’m stuck with a Lo eq of 80hz. I usually give both kick and bass a little 3db at 80 Hz boost. Now, my question is how do you guys eq the kick and bass in the low and hi mid area? I usually make a small cut at 250 Hz on the bass to try and make room for the kick. How do you guys work your kick and bass combinations?



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Message 2/30                 Date: 12-Mar-03  @  11:19 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Mindspawn

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It helps the clarity of a mix to keep instruments/sounds in their own freq area. However, and I know this is old news, use your ears. If it sounds right to you, fuck what you're supposed/not supposed to do.

That said, I tend to dig lower kicks (with the meat around 60-80hz) with more mid low basslines (like around 120-160hz), and when I do end up with a low bassline (like something dipping below 60hz) I'll generally use a higher kick (around 120hz or so, depending on the track), mostly cos I'm a lazy git and it makes it easier to mix...=)

G



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Message 3/30                 Date: 12-Mar-03  @  11:28 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Filthy McNasty

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Cheers for the response. Thing is I only have a certain freq range to eq within. I'd be sorted if my Mackie had like a 5 band eq like you get on a Neve. But I don't. I can't boost 125 hz cos I usually have to use the lo mid pot for removing nasty lo mid freqencies. That leaves me with a hig mid that starts from 500 hz and a lo that is set at 80hz. D'you get what I'm saying?



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Message 4/30                 Date: 12-Mar-03  @  11:32 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

k

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cant you get a cheap eq to patch in to the insert?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 5/30                 Date: 12-Mar-03  @  11:48 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Filthy McNasty

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Yea that's a good point!!! The insert on both kick and bass is used by my compressors so I s'posse I'd have to chain him?



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Message 6/30                 Date: 12-Mar-03  @  08:58 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Mindspawn

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You can tune yer synths, yes? Just punch the bassline or BD up or down in pitch until ya gets the sounds working together...

cheers



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Message 7/30                 Date: 13-Mar-03  @  02:08 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

k

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you could also sidechain the kik and duck down the bass a bit freom the kik sidechain - that can make some interesting stuff.

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 8/30                 Date: 13-Mar-03  @  08:46 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Filthy McNasty

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K - been checking the price of eq's. Forgeting about the Behringer stuff cos it sounds rubbish. Next up is TLA stuff priced at about £400. Trouble is if I'm gonna pay for a seperate eq strip then I want 5 bands fully parametric. Going up the nest level you get 5 bands but prices are creeping up into the £1000 area. I can't justify that.

Mindspawn - pitching the bass up and down to fit into "that pocket" is a fundamental. However, I find that when I pitch the kick up and down by a semitone, it either loses its attack (down in pitch) or just becomes too thin (up in pitch).

Anyone wanna buy me a vintage Neve eq?



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Message 9/30                 Date: 13-Mar-03  @  10:14 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

milan

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forget it man. pick your sounds carefully so they work together from the begining, and use the comp sidechaining trick to move bass out of kick`s way. you certainly dont need a neve eq. dunno... do your mixdown on a pc? that would get you s/w parametrics with all the bands you could reasonably (or unreasonably) ever wish for.



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Message 10/30                 Date: 13-Mar-03  @  10:27 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

k

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Filthy man... s/h free-ad's! -mebbe grab a couple of cheap s/h alesis graphics - all you want is something to shelve off the bottom end so your bass eq can then be used elsewhere right?

How do you work anyways?... My outboard goes thru a hardware mixer, and the 8 subgroups/busses on that mixer route to the PC 8 INPUTS on the hoontech rack... so I can tweak eq's or shelve off shit before recording outboard to audio tracks or before rendering all the onboard & outboard in the final mix... so the mixer is being used to perform PRE-PC S/W-MIXER eq tasks

How is your setup?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 11/30                 Date: 13-Mar-03  @  01:02 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Filthy McNasty

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Kinda like that. But I have 24 outputs from 3 m-audio souncards coming out the PC and down the first 24 channels of me mackie desk. The whole reason I did this was cos I hate the sound of software eq. I think it sounds really glassy. My aim was to use the a hardware mixer to counteract the sound of software. It works well I reckon. Apart from the kick and bass eq. I don't use software verbs either. I use me 3 lexicons for that. Plus my compressors don't have a sidechain input. :-(



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Message 12/30                 Date: 13-Mar-03  @  02:15 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

milan

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oh well, if you've got a 24ch mixer, 3 deltas, and 3 lexicons, then i guess getting a couple of good eq units is not a bad idea seeing how you like o work with analog hardware and all. how about some s/h focusrite greens or some TLa's?



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Message 13/30                 Date: 13-Mar-03  @  03:21 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Filthy McNasty

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Milan - do those eq's you mentioned sound ALOT better than Logic's natives? Still loving Logic's Tape Delay and Stereo Spreader though.



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Message 14/30                 Date: 13-Mar-03  @  05:18 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

milan

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mm... i couldnt swear on that one. thing is, i've used good quality harware in studios (though nothing esoteric like a pultec or anything), and with an exception of a really top end unit like a neve eq, i'm more likely to reach for a waves eq for some really fine work than an analog outboard unit. mind you, i'm talking about doing fine work like filtering out a very very narrow range of frequencies or something, which may or may not be what you want to do.

ok, lets put it this way:

if you want to do some fine work like i described and want a transparent eq, then i'd rather use software because a)most h/w units in mid price range arent well enough specified (that tla ivory has max Q of 5, whereas you'd need about 10 if you want to do some serious hairsplitting) and b) good enough units are bloody expensive.

if on the other hand, you want a musical sounding eq for some sound shaping then yes, i'd say that an analog parametric can perhaps beat a s/w unit, but you'll still have to choose carefully. tl-audio is decent, but nothing that will blow you away soundwise. focusrite greens also. there was an old TC eq which was also ok, if a little noisy if i remember correctly.

if you wanna know what i would do, well i'd stick to plugins really. they may not be mind blowing, but i doubt you'll be able to get better results without shelling out some serious dough.

anyway, there are few peeps here who have even more experience than me gear-wise and may pitch in a comment or two...

cheers, m.



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Message 15/30                 Date: 14-Mar-03  @  10:12 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

k

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so Filthy... do you record eveything to the pc and then play it back & mix thru the mixer.. Is your sound device setup all being generated by s/w or you have external synths/sampler etc?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 16/30                 Date: 14-Mar-03  @  11:03 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Filthy McNasty

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K - never record into the PC. Only done one vocal session and it turned into a disater. The singer got really stoned and after about 20 mins got really paranoid. I did my best but she wasn't very good.

I use exclusively soft sythns for everything apart from bass. I use my virus for bass. Logics es1 and es2 sit ontop of the virus bass really nicely. Just seems to fit together nicely. Its taken me 3 years to finally arrive at a set up that makes me sound more like the producers I rate. I've gone through quite alot of different gear combinations but the single best decision I made was to go soft (apart from the bass). I sound alot better now plus its so faster to work.



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Message 17/30                 Date: 14-Mar-03  @  12:14 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

k

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so why cant you filter off the very bottom eq on the s/w mixer prior to eq-ing on the mackie externaly?



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Message 18/30                 Date: 14-Mar-03  @  12:59 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Filthy McNasty

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cos the kick doesn't sound fat and warm when I use Logic's native eq's. It sounds a bit glassy and destroys alot of the thunk. Don't blame the user please :-)



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Message 19/30                 Date: 16-Mar-03  @  07:50 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Pongoid

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filthy, dig it. Somebody said it before, I'll say it again. ONE: you need to make things that work together. If you are having such a hard time getting a certain kick and bass to work together...FUCK IT!!!!! Use other sounds....duh!?!?!. Don't be so precious about a single sound to the point where you have to obsess over making it work with another. Not all sounds work together, in fact MOST do not. Build a different patch that works better in context with what you are trying to do. If you spent a little more time on your synthesis, you might find how amazing filters, resonance, pulsewidth, detuning and all of these other parameters can be used to tune your tone, besides just giving it character.

Two....put an EQ in front of your compressor. It won't hurt you.

You're welcome.

Ape



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Message 20/30                 Date: 16-Mar-03  @  11:35 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

breakerbox

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hey guys.. how do you do the sidechain ducking compresser thing with cubase sx?



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Message 21/30                 Date: 16-Mar-03  @  11:36 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

breaker

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nevermind there just read another thread right under this one about ducking in sx



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Message 22/30                 Date: 17-Mar-03  @  09:01 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Filthy McNasty

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Yea, cheers Pongoid. I do everything you suggested already. What you mentioned are all standard procedures. Well to me anyway. You sure do have a blunt tone mate :-)



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Message 23/30                 Date: 17-Mar-03  @  05:31 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

psylichon

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[laughing] he's got a point Ape. I don't feel you're ever smiling when you post  



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Message 24/30                 Date: 17-Mar-03  @  08:57 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Pongoid

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Are you gonna prattle on about my tone of typing or go make fat sounding tracks with bass and drums that work together to bring a smile to the listener?

Ape



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Message 25/30                 Date: 18-Mar-03  @  08:23 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Filthy McNasty

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Sorry Pongoid, I thought the whole idea of the Dancetech website forums was to "prattle" on about production techniques. My mistake. :-)



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Message 26/30                 Date: 18-Mar-03  @  10:56 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

k

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you'll get used to P's 'delivery' Filthy when you've been around here a few years... heart of gold under it all tho - prolly he helps old ladies cross the road & stuff. lol  



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Message 27/30                 Date: 18-Mar-03  @  12:42 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

psylichon

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hahaha... "but learn how to cross the road on your own next time, bitch!"



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Message 28/30                 Date: 18-Mar-03  @  02:17 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Filthy McNasty

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LOL. Cool.



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Message 29/30                 Date: 18-Mar-03  @  08:05 PM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Pongoid

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I'm not here to prattle on, I'm here to exchange ideas, learn from all who have something to teach me, instill knowledge in those I can, and then take those exchanges of energy and put them to use making more music.

Ape



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Message 30/30                 Date: 19-Mar-03  @  08:12 AM   -   RE: Kick Vs Bass. Again.

Filthy McNasty

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Me to.



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