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Subject: Delay


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Original Message 1/32                 Date: 23-Feb-03  @  04:36 PM   -   Delay

sector7g

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I was wondering if anyone could explain how to use a delay to echo only certian cyllables in a word, or word(s) in a phrase.

For example, instead of delaying the whole phrase:
I love dancetech...(I love dancetech)...(I love dancetech)...etc

you would only delay the tech in dancetech:
I love dancetech...(tech)...(tech)...etc

Hopefully that will make sense to someone. I am using vst 5.0, and have both plugins and a hardware delay unit availible (Yamaha D1500, as recommended by dancetech).

Thanks



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Message 2/32                 Date: 23-Feb-03  @  05:06 PM   -   RE: Delay

psylichon

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basically, you have to automate the send so it only opens on the words you want. I don't use cubase, but I'm sure someone could explain it if you don't have a manual  

psy



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Message 3/32                 Date: 23-Feb-03  @  08:37 PM   -   RE: Delay

sector7g

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Thanks psylichon, I figured that automation was the best way to go with cubase.

How did they do it before VST automation? Did artists record their parts dry, route the signal to the delay unit, then manually adjust delay parameters while recording on another channel?

I actually payed for cubase so I do have a manual. Don't trust cracked software on my mac.

Thanks again



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Message 4/32                 Date: 23-Feb-03  @  11:33 PM     Edit: 23-Feb-03  |  11:34 PM   -   RE: Delay

milan

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before automation? for example by cutting the phrases they wanted to effect and pasting them to another track which is feeding the delay unit. on analogue you'd still have to do it like that, or by manually opening and closing the send during bounce to 2track. i atually did it like that a few times while working with analogue gear. its kinda fun since you have do it by feel and it comes out slightly differently each time.  



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Message 5/32                 Date: 24-Feb-03  @  12:21 AM   -   RE: Delay

d

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yep, you took those things at the end of your arms -- hands I think they're called -- and use them to operate the aux knobs on the mixer while the music played. in your DAW, you can also dupe the track, cut out all but the "tech" thing you wanna echo, mute it to your mains but use it to feed your delay.



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Message 6/32                 Date: 24-Feb-03  @  12:38 AM   -   RE: Delay

influx

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hell...I used to do that arm thing 



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Message 7/32                 Date: 24-Feb-03  @  03:43 AM   -   RE: Delay

sector7g

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Sounds reasonable.

Thanks



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Message 8/32                 Date: 24-Feb-03  @  12:49 PM   -   RE: Delay

Deano

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An old git writes

Funny how the joys of the old ways are so soon forgotten. It's so much fun twiddling the aux sends and adjusting the delay time and feedback on the delay... and listening. So much more immediate than chopping little bits of audio with the mouse or automating fx sends. Mind you it's also so much easier to f*ck up and overload or mistime something, and then you have to start again.
But just listen what people like King Tubby or Lee Perry did with little more than a tape delay and the desk eq, and no automation. I doubt there's many people around these days that could do it.



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Message 9/32                 Date: 28-Feb-03  @  01:10 AM   -   RE: Delay

k

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you can do those fx 'styles' tho with pc - I even did one in that short thriller score we did recently.... i ran One control envelope which gradualy increased the aux-send to the delay plugin - then setting an envelope fo the feeb-back to get the mad distortion-added-percycle sound of that saturating tape delay - you can use that feebback envelope to make sure it doesnt feed-back too much and go all to hell and fry your earholes... you can add an eq to the delay return channel to round off the eq as the delay feeds back with another envelope.



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Message 10/32                 Date: 28-Feb-03  @  03:08 AM   -   RE: Delay

sector7g

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Hate to sound like a newbie (which I am), but how do you assign control envelopes to control things like Aux sends and various parameters of plugins? I know what filter/amp envelopes are, but am unfamiliar with using them outside the context of Amps and Filters.

much appreciate everyones time.



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Message 11/32                 Date: 28-Feb-03  @  03:54 AM   -   RE: Delay

d

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drawn in automation curves in your sequencer software



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Message 12/32                 Date: 28-Feb-03  @  06:03 AM   -   RE: Delay

influx

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damballah = the king of concise responses 



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Message 13/32                 Date: 28-Feb-03  @  02:45 PM   -   RE: Delay

sector7g

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concise is good. Thanks



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Message 14/32                 Date: 01-Mar-03  @  12:33 AM   -   RE: Delay

d

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yr wlcm  



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Message 15/32                 Date: 01-Mar-03  @  11:55 AM   -   RE: Delay

§ï†ÅR

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Was this mentioned? You can slice your audio at the syllable "tech". Shift drag (to constrain it in time, or however you do it in Cubase) to a seperate audio track and put your delay on that track.



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Message 16/32                 Date: 20-Mar-03  @  01:36 PM   -   RE: Delay

dosullivan

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hey d

you mention there in your wonderfully concise explanation of how to achieve that delay send technique about "muting it to the mains but just use it to feed the dely".

that's the bit i don't get! can you talk me thru that step as if you were talking to a two year old with a learning disability. PLEEEZE. if i can snag that bit then i think o've got the rest sorted.

what i'm after is i'm trying to get that really screwed up delay sound where it keeps feeding back more and more and starts gaining 'air' as it fades more and more into the ether. its an amazing effect :D

thanks
D



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Message 17/32                 Date: 20-Mar-03  @  03:06 PM   -   RE: Delay

d

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actually, if you insert a delay on the channel with your chopped audio and set the mix on the delay to 100% wet, that should work. there's a bit more complicated way that'd be good if you wanted to do several tracks through a single delay, but for just some words use the channel insert.

if you wanted to do several, go to your vst mixer, scroll to the right. there you'll see groups, GRP1-GRP8. You could insert your effect there. Go back to the channels with the audio. At the bottom of the channel, there's a button that says MASTER that you can change to one of the groups. those channels will then feed the effect.



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Message 18/32                 Date: 20-Mar-03  @  04:18 PM   -   RE: Delay

DoeZer

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[image file]


great! thanks i'll check it out.
i actually use inserts alot of the time anyway so cool  .

but there's another method which i'm trying to find out more about. my 'mixer terminology' isn't as good as it should be. i'll try to explain...

if you think of a hardware mixer. the diagram attached explains it better than i can. it involves having a delay box as your aux send effect and then, by setting the feedback of that box to zero, you can setup an endless loop which can be controlled with the faders...

or something like that!  ) I'm hoping some of this makes more sense to you than me. its a method i've read about for getting that really dubby fedback kinda delay that can sound SO cool sometimes. but i can't seem to get it setup on my gear. any suggestions?

D

D
if you send take



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Message 19/32                 Date: 20-Mar-03  @  07:21 PM   -   RE: Delay

d

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yeah, returning a hardware delay into a channel works great, turn up the aux on the return channel for feedback, and play with the tone controls for filter delay effects.



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Message 20/32                 Date: 21-Mar-03  @  01:03 PM   -   RE: Delay

Normal

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..and for even more dub, connect a cable from another send back to a channel. When you bring up the send level on that channel you get loud feedback (be very careful not to blow your monitors! - turn down your monitor outs), and by manipulating the tone controls, you get a proper dub siren noise. Use a seperate send to send this to a delay, set up as D says. I've got some real fat bass noises doing this, which can be recorded and stuck in the sampler.



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Message 21/32                 Date: 25-Mar-03  @  05:11 PM     Edit: 25-Mar-03  |  05:17 PM   -   RE: Delay

DoeZer

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hi d, Normal

guys. what you;re saying sounds cool...
but I haven;t a clue what you're on about!!! this is my problem. i don;t get the terminology for all this stuff, but I'm determined to get this dub/delay effect going  

can you do me a HUGE HUGE favour and just go thru in plain english what those connections are and what the settings are to get this setup working right. you see i got that drawing there off the web!! i'm still blissfully ignorant. its not like i've a degree in sound engineering or anything (which is of course stating the bleedin' obvious) know what i mean??  

any help appreciated.

cheers
D

oh yeah. one other thing. i've got a yamaha O1V mixer. which has internal fx. is it possible for me to get this effect without all the external hardware routings. i've already got some cool feedback delay but simply by turning the feedbacks to the max on an individual channel



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Message 22/32                 Date: 25-Mar-03  @  11:00 PM   -   RE: Delay

milan

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hehe... i wont explain everything right now, but yes you can get the effect with the 01v by hooking it up to a pc and doing midi automation, since all the fx sends on it are automatable too. i use to do that all the time with my ole Promix before i went soft, so to speak...



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Message 23/32                 Date: 26-Mar-03  @  09:14 AM   -   RE: Delay

DoeZer

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hi milan,

yeah that's what i'm doing at the moment. i record fx fader movements into the PC as CC messages. then you've got your automated delay bursts etc.

but as far as i can make out there's another level i can take it to, by feeding back one delay into another and using different hardware channels in the process. gives a more dubbed out feel to the delay - ala Lee Scratch Perry et al.... (its a bit woolly at the moment but when i figure it out i'll post  )

thanks
D



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Message 24/32                 Date: 26-Mar-03  @  12:06 PM   -   RE: Delay

Normal

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Ok Doezer, you can get these dub effects using software, but i'm gonna go on about doing it purely HW, as it's just so much more fun, and you're basically playing your mixer like an instrument, real-time. Not too sure what you already know, so sorry if I sound condescending. Righto, all you need is a mixer, a delay unit, a sound source, and a load of cables. I'll talk about the feedback delay first, so forget the siren thing i mentioned for now.

First, connect your sound source to the mixer, in the normal way. Next, you want to hook up your delay unit. Best to keep it mono for now, as it's more simple. You want to connect an Aux Send (it might be called an "effects send" on your mixer) from your mixer to the input on your delay. So look round the back of your mixer for the Aux Send sockets, and connect number 1 socket to the input on yer delay. So now you turn up your Aux 1 knob on your sound source channel. What's happenning is some of the signal going through your sound source channel is being fed to your delay unit, while the rest is just going through your mixer normally. You can't hear the dealy yet, as we haven't returned it's sounds back to the desk yet. Now normally you'd return your effects back to the desk using the special Aux return (maybe effects return) inputs, but we're gonna return the dealy to it's own channel. So you connect a cable from the output on your delay to any input channel on your desk. So now when you play your sound source, some of the sound goes straight out of your desk uneffected (dry), while some goes to the delay, back to the desk and out (wet). Make sure the mix bit on your delay unit is set to wet, as we're balancing our wet and dry signals in the mixer, not in the delay unit.

So far, all you've don is connected your effects to your mixer, in a fairly standard way, whether you want to do feedbacks, or not. So get your sound source playing, and hear the delay. Now for the fun bit... turn down the feed back level on you're delay unit (tho not right down). turn up the aux1 nob a bit on the effects channel. As you turn it up you'll hear when the feedback catches... as soon as it catches, back it off a bit, to avoid distortion and blowing up your speakers. You'll have to ride the level on that delay channel and the aux1 nob, so it doesn't start distorting. Now you're sending your delayed signal back to the delay, in a loop. You can turn down the sound source channel, and you'll still hear the delay, as the sound is just looping from delay to mixer to delay. It's also good to mess with the EQ on that delay channel... I usually cut all the bass, and bring down the tops a bit, but play around. This will give more dynamic to the delay, as the sound is getting thinned by the eq each time it goes round the loop.

So say i'm running a vocal track as my sound source. I'd have the aux1 nob on that channel turned down to start with. If the vocal said " dance tech", i'd quickly flip that aux1 nob on the vocal channel up and back down on the "tech" bit, then quickly bring up the aux1 nob on the delay channel. You'd hear "dance tech tech tech tech", with the tech bit caught in the feedback loop, and as you mess with the eq, it'd get more messed up. Also mess with the feedback nob on your effects unit. With jsut one delay (low setting) you can get quite a clean loop going, whereas things get mushy more easily with a higher setting. But then with a low setting, you've got to be quicker getting to your aux1 nob on the delay channel. Anyway, have a play... that's basically it.

The siren thing is set up the same as the delay, but with no effects unit... just run a cable straight from your aux send back to it's own channel, and turn up the aux nob a bit till it feeds back... messing with the eg will change the tone. Then you can turn up the aux nob that'll send the siren to the delay, and feed that back and... Mad Proffessor stylee.

Shit, i written a lot. Concise i aint. Anyway, it's not as complicated as i've made it sound, and once you understand whats going on, it's so much fun delaying a bit of this, a bit of that and gennerally just mashin stuff up!

Al



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Message 25/32                 Date: 26-Mar-03  @  02:35 PM   -   RE: Delay

DoeZer

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Hey Normal,

what can I say... Thanks ALOT for your help  . finally a clear, concise (yes it was concise!) no BS description of how to set this up. 'Dub delay for Idiots' if you will :D.
that's just the level i needed it. connect this cable into that socket, then this knob and that knob etc... perfect!
enjoy the good karma, you've earned it  

D



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Message 26/32                 Date: 26-Mar-03  @  05:00 PM   -   RE: Delay

Normal

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no prob, glad it makes sense to you. Just noticed that you use an 01V, so not too sure about how it'll all work on that... might be possible, but i've only done it through an analog desk. I tried it in Reason once, as you can patch all the ins and outs, but just managed to get the nastiest ear bleeding digital feedback, so hope you don't end up with that. Basically careful with your ears and speakers!



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Message 27/32                 Date: 26-Mar-03  @  05:34 PM   -   RE: Delay

DoeZer

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yeah, for things like this it'd be better to keep it all analog, but i reckon with the o1v i'll get some kind of result. i would say that one of the reasons you got such a mess with te reason setup is because you can't ride the faders as subtly as you can with a mixer.

as for getting all this kind of stuff from a PC, check out the Ohmforce plug-in called 'OhmBoyz', its given me some great results

thanks again
D



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Message 28/32                 Date: 08-Apr-03  @  01:55 PM   -   RE: Delay

dan-s

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Don't forget trying to send the delay return to a phaser or flanger or some other kind of effect.
Lee Perry used that a lot on the congos' album. (At least I think it sounds like that)



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Message 29/32                 Date: 08-Apr-03  @  10:58 PM   -   RE: Delay

k

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yeah! - flanging and phasing sound ing cool on things like tom-tom & hand-drum percussion patterns!



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Message 30/32                 Date: 09-Apr-03  @  10:10 AM   -   RE: Delay

milan

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yeah totaly: delay return -> phaser/chorus/flanger vor more variation on the sound. excellent!



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Message 31/32                 Date: 09-Apr-03  @  11:56 AM   -   RE: Delay

Steve Roughley

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"as for getting all this kind of stuff from a PC"

I actually found a way of setting up the routing for a dub-delay in Logic. See here

Regards.

Steve.



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Message 32/32                 Date: 09-Apr-03  @  05:13 PM   -   RE: Delay

99devils

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You can run the return of the FX processors back into themselves on the 01V. On the effects page that lists what channels are being fed into the delay and by how much, you can use the fx1 and fx2 knobs to add their output into whatever FX unit you want to run them into.

-Craig



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